New To Raw, Need Help!

[SinisterKisses]

Hi everyone, I'm brand new to this site and joined up to get some help with feeding raw. We have three cats - a 12 year old large neutered male, 1 year old small spayed female, and 1 year old average neutered male (we also have three Chihuahuas). We have always fed kibble, including with the two cats we had previously, and though I did some self-education on dog food many many years ago I didn't get too in depth with cat nutrition until very recently. I basically took what I learned about what to look for in a dog food, and applied it to cats as well (my bad, I know!). As such, our kids have been eating Orijen Six Fish kibble for a very long time, which I still believe is about as high quality a kibble you can get. However, our youngest cat, the 1 year old male, has urinary issues. At just three months old, he developed Feline Idiopathic Cystitis - which, as I'm sure many of you know, is extremely uncommon at such a young age and very concerning. Since last October, we have been battling with on-again/off-again flare ups. At first, we switched him to a more canned-food based diet with much less kibble, after learning about his moisture needs, and my refusing to put him on vet-prescription crap. After a few trial and error attempts that did nothing, a couple months ago we ran him into the vet when he seemed unable to urinate - turns out he had a blockage, but thankfully I'm extremely aware of my pets and we got him there very quickly; they knocked him out and cleared the blockage. They pushed putting him on vet prescription kibble specific for urinary/crystal issues, and canned food as well. He's been eating that for two months, and after all their promises that it would work wonders, at his last urinary test a couple weeks ago, the report was "better, but not clear".

Now, I've been extremely unhappy about him eating this vet junk right from the get-go. I do NOT want him eating such a junk food his entire life - he's only a year old! If it gets to a point that NOTHING else works, and it's eat this stuff or die - well, then, okay, I guess I can live with it. But I fail to see how after telling us "he needs moisture, he needs moisture", how they can think putting him on a dry kibble diet, and a kibble full of corn and rice no less, is the answer.


About a week ago, I saw a post on a Facebook pet page from a woman who has an extremely similar situation with her cat - serious chronic urinary issues since about 4-6 months old, tried everything, was about to have him euthanized (to be clear, I'm NOT considering that option!). But then she tried a raw diet as a last resort, and a year later it has worked wonders for her!


So, for a week I've been doing some seriously heavy research on raw diets. There is a LOT of information out there, and it's a bit overwhelming. So I've come here for help

I think I have the basics - make sure your pet is getting at least three types of different proteins, include bones and organs, etc. I've read a lot about how badly a raw diet can go if it is not a COMPLETE nutrition meal - can't just grind up some chicken and feed that, need to supplement. As a result, I decided I would like to ease in with commercially prepared complete nutrition meals, such as Stella & Chewys. I decided I wanted to do frozen raw vs. freeze dried - seemed more "raw". However, after doing recon at our local stores as to what is actually available to us (we live in a small town, so availability is often an issue), it may be difficult. Our "complete nutrition" meal options are very limited. There does, however, seem to be a ton of "incomplete" raw availability. So I have a few questions:

1 - what, EXACTLY, needs to be included to be a "complete nutrition" diet? There are a number of brands that after reading their website, I'm very unsure about whether I can thaw and feed as-is, or if I need to add supplements. If I do, WHAT supplements?


2 - is freeze dried raw food just as good for my cat IF REHYDRATED as frozen is? There seems to be a lot more variety in proteins available for freeze-dried complete options, than frozen. Can I look at freeze-dried and still get the same benefits, particularly for the cat with urinary issues, if I rehydrate it properly?


3 - can frozen complete nutrition dog raw be fed safety to cats instead of cat, as long as it's not loaded with fruits and vegetables? We're switching our Chihuahuas over as well, and there seems to be a LOT more available to us locally for dogs than for cats. I know cats need the taurine, but my understanding is that taurine comes from organ meat, so raw food naturally is high in taurine and meets their requirement. So dog food with organ meat would cover that. I'm wondering if I can buy frozen "dog meal" patties that have a very minor or no produce content to give to the cats?


4 - any other information you can impart!

I apologize for the long post, but wanted to make sure I was giving the complete situation clearly. Thank you so, so much.

Specifically, this brand (Natural Instincts) is very locally produced and seems like a great product - plus has a TON of different protein varieties available - but I'm really unsure as to whether these are complete nutrition that I can thaw and feed, or if something still needs to be added? It SEEMS like it's saying it's complete to me, but it also seems very basic so I'm not sure?


Natural Instincts | PRODUCTS

 

[lalagimp]

Even with dog food, it still need supplemental taurine whether or not organ meat is involved. I don't know what your commercial options are, but I always look to see if they add fruits and veggies just to make their owners feel better. Cats only need meat, vitamins and supplements; no plant matter. So there's a big difference between Nature's Variety chicken medallions and then being able to buy from a company like RadCat. If simple formulas aren't readily available to you and you don't want to dive into making your own, there is also a mail order monthly sub with Darwins.
I spoke with Dr Pierson from Catinfo.org and because of Tom's crystals and cystitis, we're actually doing 1:1 for bone in meat: boneless meat instead of the 2:1 that's published widely on her site. Her logic is that's less minerals in his bladder for stuff to use as building blocks to either irritate the walls or grow into something that can clog him up. I did end up getting him the surgery, but continue to watch his diet. I agree that ingredients in prescription food are junk. Dr Pierson says they do have their place as if your cat has a blockage you can use SD for two weeks, to completely dissolve everything, and then move forward with your new diet plan.

Canned. Raw. Dehyrated. They can all be good for your cat because of the moisture, but it depends on the formulas if you would like to completely eliminate plant matter for your obligate carnivore.

 

[LTS3]

1 - what, EXACTLY, needs to be included to be a "complete nutrition" diet? There are a number of brands that after reading their website, I'm very unsure about whether I can thaw and feed as-is, or if I need to add supplements. If I do, WHAT supplements?

Commerical raw food that is labeled as complete balanced diets do not need to be supplemented in any way. They contain all the necessary vitamins and minerals, usually through a combination of bone and organs and supplements. Some brands that are complete balanced diets are Rad Cat and Nature's Variety Instinct.

2 - is freeze dried raw food just as good for my cat IF REHYDRATED as frozen is? There seems to be a lot more variety in proteins available for freeze-dried complete options, than frozen. Can I look at freeze-dried and still get the same benefits, particularly for the cat with urinary issues, if I rehydrate it properly?

Yes. Some cats won't eat frozen raw but will eat freeze dried. Freeze dried raw is shelf stable so if you are limited in freezer space, freeze dried raw is ideal. A bag of freeze dried raw usually doesn't contain many meals if you are exclusively feeding it.

3 - can frozen complete nutrition dog raw be fed safety to cats instead of cat, as long as it's not loaded with fruits and vegetables? We're switching our Chihuahuas over as well, and there seems to be a LOT more available to us locally for dogs than for cats. I know cats need the taurine, but my understanding is that taurine comes from organ meat, so raw food naturally is high in taurine and meets their requirement. So dog food with organ meat would cover that. I'm wondering if I can buy frozen "dog meal" patties that have a very minor or no produce content to give to the cats?

I guess it depends on the brand. Sometimes dog food has stuff that aren't good for cats. Even if it's ok, you will need to add taurine, either a powdered supplement or provide taurine-rich organs with each meal.

Specifically, this brand (Natural Instincts) is very locally produced and seems like a great product - plus has a TON of different protein varieties available - but I'm really unsure as to whether these are complete nutrition that I can thaw and feed, or if something still needs to be added? It SEEMS like it's saying it's complete to me, but it also seems very basic so I'm not sure?

The plain meat ones are just that, just meat and / or organs and / or bone depending on the protein. These have to be supplemented in some way to be a complete diet.

The meals for cats looks like a complete diet with fish oil, a calcium supplement or ground bone, and egg yolk but you should contact the company to be sure.

There are other commercial raw food brands available in Canada. See Raw Food Brands In Canada?

Making your own raw is an option. It's super easy if you use a pre-mix supplement with raw meat of your choice. TC Feline is one brand available in Canada.

 

[SinisterKisses]

Thank you VERY much, this helps a lot! There are certainly a lot of brands available in Canada, BUT we live in a small town and the variety of ANYTHING here is severely limited. My husband and I have visited all of our local sources for dog and cat food to see what, exactly, they have that we can get regularly. I think between them all, we have a few different brands that we can swap around to ensure they're getting a varied but complete diet and mix it up between froze and freeze dried without worrying

As for making our own...lol maybe eventually if we decide they are eating every penny we make using premade meals, but for now...I'm not the get-my-hands-dirty type

 

[maureen brad]

If I were you I would definitely stop feeding fish. It is hyper allergenic and doesn't offer complete nutrition. It is also addictive, The following sites are well known to raw feeders and offer a wealth of info. You can find recipes there as well. www.catinfo.org www.feline-nutrtion.org
I use both recipes but I get most of my food from www.hare-today.com. It is a great service and you can buy a range of meats from chicken, rabbit & turkey to alpaca and pheasant. This option is cost effective if you buy up to 55 lbs per order . You do have to add supplements and the fowl has a high bone content so you would have to add boneless meat to balance it . You can find a calculator to help you do that at www.rawcalc.org. Good luck to you. At first going raw can seem daunting but once you get the hang of it , it is second nature and really fairly easy.

 

[SinisterKisses]

Lol thank you, I've bookmarked those sites earlier this week when I started researching and they definitely have a lot of good information. Unfortunately I'm in a small city on the west coast of Canada, so my options online are very limited. I'm sure with some time we'll be comfortable making our own meals, but to start we'll keep up with the prepared meals and see how that goes!

 

[valentine319]

I'm not sure Hare Today would ship to Canada. There would be shipping fees and the possibility of getting stuck in customs.

If you decide to make your own and can find what is called a whole carcass grind which is usually rabbit it's fairly easy to supplement.

I'm going to add the comment that all should be switched to canned only before going over 10% raw. If someone else mentioned it sorry, i need more caffeine. So my advice is switch to either the vet recommended canned only. Go with timed meals. You can add a little bit of water in kitties food to get even more hydration. This will get you ready to go raw. I've heard kibble and raw do not mix. This would also let you and kitties plus dogs get used to timed meals.

 

[valentine319]

Raw Canada is anyone familiar with these:

Tail Blazers - Products - Cat: Food - Raw

There's quite a few companies so this may offer you shipping possibilities. Many of us without stores have 2-3 months shipped at a time. Some actually order more depending on freezer space.

That's the other question to ask yourself. How much freezer space or can you add a freezer?

 

[SinisterKisses]

Oh, all of our pets have been on scheduled meals their whole lives. We have never free fed. They get breakfast at 6 am and dinner at 6 pm. No worries there. And we've already switched, I'm just trying to get ALL the information I need lol.

I think I've looked at that site previously, I'll have to take another look later today when I'm back on my home computer. And yes, we have lots of freezer space. Even with the kibble, we bought in larger quantities and froze it for freshness and quality. So our chest freezer is like 10% our food and 90% pet food already

Thanks for everyone's help!!

 

[valentine319]

Then you are completely ready!

 

[EmersonandEvie]

This is the recipe I use to make my cat's food from ground frozen meat/bone/organ chubs.

Easy Raw Diet Feeding for the Busy Person - Feline Nutrition Foundation

I used to use Alnutrin (which is basically all of that stuff in that recipe but in a prepared powdered form) but the cost of making your own slurry is so much cheaper...and once you get in a rhythm of making thing, it doesn't take much time at all! For additional calories/bulk, I've heard of people adding goat milk or raw kefir to heir cat food.

 

[SinisterKisses]

Thanks for that - I've spent some time on that site but hadn't stumbled across that article yet. I'll have to check around and see if Alnutrin is available to me where I live.

 

[LTS3]

Alnutrin isn't sold in stores. You have to order it from Know What You Feed Your Cat - Shop Online or a place like Hare-Today.com

 

[SinisterKisses]

I figured s much, I buy most things online anyway

 

[SinisterKisses]

Okay after taking a look at the Know What You Feed Your Cat site with the Alnutrin, I have more questions. Site doesn't say much about locations - I assume it's in the US with US prices? In which case, shipping and the conversion to Canadian dollars is going to add up quickly I think. Are there other supplement brands that do the same thing that might be easier for me to get here in Canada? I found a page somewhere that suggested Alnutrin, Feline Instincts, or TC Feline?

If I were to purchase Alnutrin, or a similar product, then it would simply be a case of buying preground chubs of cat food that AREN'T complete nutritionally, and adding the Alnutrin per the instructions? For example, a brand that is very easy to get for me locally is this one:

Product Menu (Cats) – Buddies Natural Pet Food

But I had written them off for now because they weren't a complete meal. So I could go buy their chubs of meat and Alnutrin, (either the bone-in or no bone version, based on which protein it is), and that would be all I'd have to do?

 

[LTS3]

TC Feline is sold in Canada: Welcome to Three Gables Farm - my cat food store and more! Depending on which product you use, fresh raw liver may be required. TCfeline products

Better In The Raw is also sold in Canada: Better in the Raw for Cats No extra organs or supplements are needed. Just mix the product with boneless organ less meats and some water.

It doesn't look like Alnutrin is sold in Canada so buying it from the US would be costly. Alnutrin in Canada

Check the pre-mix package instructions. Some products require only boneless organ less meats because it already contains calcium and other things. Other products require the use of meat with bone and organs. It looks like the some of the Buddies brand of raw for cats are boneless meats with organs or bone-in meat and organs. A calcium supplement is needed for the boneless meats with organs. The bone-in meats should be ok without a caclcium supplement but you should ask the company what the calcium percentage is. Most people stick to 10% calcium to avoid constipation.

Some people find it easier to just use individual supplements that can be bought at a vitamin / natural health type store or web site.

 

[orange&white]

Some people find it easier to just use individual supplements that can be bought at a vitamin / natural health type store or web site.

That's what I do. Less expensive in the long run and easy to source. Vitamins: B-Complex and E, Amino acid: Taurine, Lite Salt and either Omega-3 fish oil or feed some oily fish every week. I also add egg yolks to the cats' mix.

(Supplements suggested in the recipes at catinfo.org and feline-nutrition.org...as if you need more sources/links. )

 

[SinisterKisses]

Thank you.

 

[maureen brad]

If you can get Alnutrin it makes life easy. Be aware though that using Alnutrin with rabbit is not a good thing to do. Ground whole carcass rabbit contains thyroid, using Alnutrin would increase iodine levels. That puts a cat at risk for hyperthyroidism.The supplement slurry recipe from easy raw from feline nutrition, also contains light salt if you're making rabbit just leave that out.

 

[SinisterKisses]

Good to know, thank you.

I have another question. I know I need to make sure they are getting a variety of different proteins to get a balanced, full diet. But how often do they need to be changed up? If I buy a larger bag of food that will last them two weeks, are they okay to eat that same protein for two weeks straight and then get a different protein when we buy the next bag? Or should it be rotated out more like every few days?