New cat pooping outside of resident cat's litterbox / by food bowls

[malama popoki]

Hi Everyone,

I adopted a 1-yr-old siamanx mix at my local shelter about 1 1/2 mos. ago.  My resident cat is a mellow, 3-yr-old ragdoll.  We introduced them slowly, the new cat in a small "safe room" for about 1 month, and over the last 2 weeks, she has been out and about with my resident cat.  At first visits were supervised, for 1 hr each in a.m. and p.m., with minimal hissing and some chasing.  When I felt that things were going relatively smoothly (noses touching,friendly chasing, only occasional hissing and chasing, but a clear attempt on part of my resident cat to establish hierarchy.  Lots of sneak ambushes and tagging of hindquarters..), I started leaving them together while I was at work. 

Within the last 5 days or so, the new kitty has been leaving a lone "nugget" outside of the litter pans when she goes.  I have 4 pans, two upstairs, two downstairs.  At first I thought it was accidental, but every time I clean it up with enzymatic cleaner, she deposits the nugget in a different spot, avoiding the clean-up spot.  I saw a little of this behavior in her safe-room at the beginning, and once she pooped next to her food bowl. 

This morning when I got up, she had left one little poo right by my resident cat's food bowl.  She also left two ouside of her upstairs litterbox, on top of a towel that I had strewn on the floor.  I notice that things are growing tense between the two cats, and there was a tussle with hissing, some growling and boxing (a little fur flew)..  I broke it up with a blanket and moved new kitty back into her safe room.

Now I am totally unsure as to what to do.  At present, new kitty is desperately crying from within her safe room and resident kitty is right on the other side of the door, sniffing and scratching at the door, also rolling around and sometimes trying to play paws.  Am I doing the right thing separate them again and try to slow things down, or should I leave them together to work it out?  

 

[yayi]

A visit to the vet will ensure your newbie has no health issues. 

 

[malama popoki]

I took both cats to the vet last week, both have a clean bill of health.  I separated them again, as I don't want things to escalate while I'm away, and inappropriate pooping has ceased.  My hunch is that the new cat feels insecure, as my resident cat seems to want to ambush her at every corner, putting a quick wrestling hug on her, then running away, then circling back to face off.  This almost always results in ears back by both girls hissing, posturing and boxing.  Usually, new cat will retreat to under the sofa or sometimes to the horizontal scratching pad, where she scratches aggressively. 

I brought them out this morning for treats and play, first individually, and then together, and new cat was playing with the wand toy, rolling around on her back and showing her belly in front of resident cat.  Resident cat ambushed, jumped, front-paws-first, right onto new cat and the same posturing resulted.  I try to refocus them by distracting them with toys and treats and we ended up sharing treats on the couch. 

New cat is back in her bathroom and meows with what seems to be separation anxiety, but when she's out and about she paces and murmurs, and there is this tension coming from both cats.  I'm trying to stay cool, hang back and let them work this out, but I feel the need to stop this behavior when it escalates.

I'm getting discouraged and I don't know if we're making any progress.  It is difficult because I don't know cat psychology.  Is separating them and bringing them out for an hour every a.m. and p.m. a good idea?  I'm beginning to think that adopting another cat may have been a mistake.  My resident cat may want to be an only cat, but now we've made a commitment. 

 

[sevenwonders]

I think it is way too early to worry that you have made a mistake.

Some kitties just take longer to accept a new cat, and to adjust to a new environment.+

I think you are on the right track. I would continue to keep them apart most of the time,

and try to create a very positive environment when they are together.(Meals and snacks work well.)

Also, when they are together, be sure to give plenty of attention to the Resident cat -

that should reinforce to him that he is still #1, and that the new kitty is not there to harm or replace him.

I think in time, they will learn to get along, and will likely become buddies!

 

[malama popoki]

When I have them together, how do I recognize aggression?  Sometimes it looks like charging and boxing, which I think looks like play at first, but it seems to escalate quickly after 3 or four charges. Almost every time now the result is one cornered cat  (could be either cat), and flat ears with hissing.  At what point should I break it up and separate them?  I have read some posts that say to let it go unless fur literally flies. I'm having a hard time watching things escalate to this point.

 

[caro]

Hi there

One and half months is a reasonable time for them to have begun to get used to each other/at least co-exist, on the other hand with cats it can take much longer.

I am also a bit stressed out as I have introduced an elderly tomcat to my 2 six year old females (you may have read my post). The thing I keep reminding myself about is, I did a great thing, giving an old, battered (he is blind in one eye and off-balance in his hind legs) cat a nice home and retirement. I knew the 2 ladies would be upset for a time but it is my committment, I initiated it and I have to deal with it. I have a hard time emotionally letting them 'sort it out' (but it's really not aggressive, only play that escalates a bit ) so i imagine you must feel worse.

All I can say is relax, be zen and go with the flow, hang on in there, keep supervising, encouraging and separate if you feel it is too rough. In time they should at least tolerate each other especially as you have a big space. I had 3 females previously (all passed away now) and they just lived together-apart, avoiding each other. This is the best you can hope for, I think. Good luck and well done so far.

caro   

 

[guitarmonster]

Yeah it sounds like you did a really good job of transitioning the new cat.  It sounds like there may be some territorial issues between them.  Very importantly, cats value high spaces like shelves, book cases, cat trees and window sills as valuable territory, since naturally they like to hang out in high vantage points.  Unfortunately I have found that most cat owners prefer a "floor cat" that is more like a dog, only allowed on the floor or couch.  I would say if you have 2 cats, you should have at least 8 different areas available for them to hang out on, ones that are high off the ground.  Cats like to sit high because it makes them feel safe, they are able to conduct surveillance over their domain.  Many times I will see my 2 cats playing together, or sometimes i will see one in a window sill and one on a cat tree.  This gives them the needed space they need when a cat wants to be left alone.  If you have one cat attacking the other, you may end up with an under the bed dwelling cat if it no longer feels safe.  The high vantage points give them areas where they know there can be no surprises, they are in control and they are relaxed. 

Another thing is playing, I always tell people that a tired cat is a well behaved cat.  Playing with them a lot will disperse their energy and can help them to get along better.  If you have them separated right now try to schedule a couple of playtimes throughout the day where you play with both cats together.  Grab one of those feather on a fishing pole cat toys and let them both chase it together.  For a little while let the playtime be their only time together, this will show them that being together is fun and it will redirect their energy properly.

Also, how many times per day do you scoop the litter pans?

 

[malama popoki]

I think they are making progress.  I have them separated at night, and during the day for about four hours at a time.  Throughout the day, I play with each cat individually, then I bring them out together for snacks and play.  I feed them both bonito flakes while they are together and I feed them dinner on opposite sides of a door.  The "play" between the two of them seems to escalate to hissing and posturing less often.  Seems to be more of chase and tag, up the stairs, down the stairs, like a thundering heard of elephants. When I try to involve both of them in chasing da bird, or da mouse,  my new cat seems to get very shy and the new cat is very play driven so she almost overpowers my resident cat's gentle attempts at play.  I'm trying to encourage my resident cat to jump on in, but it hasn't really happened yet.

Also, I can tell that my resident cat feels more secure when she can observe the new cat from her Sunny Seat up in the window (I have three of these in various windows).  I feel like we have made a breakthrough in the last couple of days.

I think I may try to makethe top of  my book case more accessible,  and get another cat tree. 

I still find random poops outside of all of the litter boxes, but they are fairly easy to pick up and clean.  Still trying to figure that one out!  Oh, and in answer to guitarmonster, I scoop all four litter boxes every a.m. and p.m., but I'm going to try maybe a covered box.  I still think this might be an attempt to claim territory somehow.

 

[guitarmonster]

Despite popular belief, covered litter pans are not good.  They encourage scooping less and they contain too much odor on the inside.  When the cat is inside the covered litter box they REALLY smell it because their noses are so much more sensitive. 

After you clean up the poop are you using a cleaner that is able to completely remove any scent, if the scent is still there the cat will continue to go there.  As far as the one cat being timid when playing, that's normal.  I have the same thing, my one cat who I call the "rocket kitty" when it comes time to chase he is like a bolt of lightning, where the other cat is more of an opportunist, he will swat at the feather and attack it if it comes into his area.  Also I noticed that the rocket kitty is more of a ground player, he chases around on the ground, the other cat is a climber so to get him involved I move the laser pointer or feather above the cat tree, and he rockets right up while the other one stays on the floor.  It's almost like one cat is the Army and the other is the Air Force, they both work together as a team to make the capture.  It's probably just different personalities, eventually you will learn what makes each one tick.

Also, and most people think i'm crazy but I highly recommend walking your cat on a leash with a harness.  Do not use the harnesses from the pet store, they are uncomfortable and your cat will probably escape from it.  Get a harness called the "Kitty Holster", you can find it on a site for Crazy K Farm.  Ever since I started walking my cats they have calmed down considerably.  The problem with cats is they are constantly craving stimulation, they need their minds to be constantly expanded.  Start off just going around the block, let your cat lead you where he wants to go, eventually he will get it and you both will walk around the neighborhood just like you were walking a dog.  After he gets used to 1 block you can expand out.  This is just another distraction you can create for your cats, and like I always say "a distracted cat is a well behaved cat".

 

[malama popoki]

It's funny that you should mention a harness, My resident cat, Mai Tai, loves to walk and explore on a lead and harness.  I did this quite a bit when I first got her, and she took to the leash right away, being a ragdoll cat.  However, I stopped when she started getting antsy and wanted to go out for walks at every waking hour.  She also became more territorial of our home, a duplex where a neighbor cat, Stella, was queen bee of the back yard. She started scratching the door, chin marking constantly and she began "burying her food" with imaginary dirt.  She would also try to escape behind us whenever the door was opened.   When I stopped taking her out, the behavior ceased.  Haven't had her on a lead since.  This idea of taking them both outside on harnesses is rather daunting with the two cats, let alone one, but I'm willing to give it some thought. 

I use an enzymatic cleaner to clean under the spots where I've found poop. 

I think things are starting to look up, however, as far as concerning acclimating the two cats.  Things are pretty happy tonight, they greeted each other with touching noses when I got home, and the newbie jumped up to cheek mark the resident cat.  Resident looked surprised but was accepting.  Also, some gentle paws batting on each side of a ratan sofa, chasing with puffy cheeks and wide pupils, one tail up (newbie is a manx so it was hard to tell if her tail was up 

)  and mouths parted, sharing of treats together.  One mild skirmish, however, when newbie tried to overtake the window perch where the resident likes to chill in the p.m. hours.  That almost got ugly, but newbie got the message right in the nick of time..    Still feeding and sleeping in separate rooms. 

One observation.  Newbie is really "siamese", as she seems to "grumble, rumble, pace and meow" ALOT!!   She almost sounds like a little muted trumpet sometimes.  I thought she was frustrated, but now it appears that this is her "satisfied thinking noise, and sometimes she does this when she is looking for stimulous"..  Weird, but totally cute!

 

[Willowy]

When you said she's a "siamanx" mix, does that mean she has a bobtail? If so, some bobtails have varying degrees of fecal incontinence. She may not know if she's done or not when she leaves the litterbox. If that's the case, it's lucky there's only a few "nuggets" left around.

 

[guitarmonster]

Yeah I have found that every cat has their own distinct noises they make.  I have one that meows and one that makes these little squeaking noises.  As far as I have learned cat's don't communicate with each other through vocalisation, but their vocalizing is an attempt to communicate with us.  So I think that's why with every cat you get different noises and variations, because they all figure it out on their own. 

As far as when your cat would try to escape from the door, is this as you are entering or leaving?  I have found that many people enter or leave their door in the wrong way, they take their time to do it carefully so that the cat doesn't get out, but while they are taking their time doing it carefully, this is when the cat takes their advantage.  I actually was able to stop my cats from darting out the door by changing my strategy.  When I walk in the door, I walk with a purpose.  I don't hesitate, don't take my time, the attitude is "i'm coming and and you better get out of my way or you'll get run over".  So now when I open my door, they know "there's a big dude gonna come trucking through that door, I better get myself out of the way".  Also maybe there are not enough windows available for the cats to watch outside.  The problem is cats have a ridiculous amount of curiosity.  No matter what the situation is, they must know what is going on around every corner and behind every door.  That is why cat's are not too keen on closed doors, and they will try to circumvent them, because their brain is saying "I have to know what is going on behind there".  Maybe there are some angles outside the can cannot see from the window, and it feels it needs to get out to see it.  Or maybe it just loves to go for walks alot.  When you used to walk your cat, did you do it on a schedule or did you do it just whenever?  The reason I ask is cats are creatures of habit, if for instance you were only to take your cat for a walk every other day at 3:00pm, eventually the cat will get used to it.  Another alternative that I had a hard time believing but I saw it work.  I saw an episode of that show "My cat from hell", the owners had a cat that literally every time you opened the door would dart right out.  The host of the show directed the owners to put a cat tree directly next to the door, which I thought at first was a bad idea.  Turns out it worked, when they opened the door the cat would run and jump on the top shelf of the cat tree and would peek out the door to see what's going on.  I guess it makes sense because even though my cats have learned to keep clear of the door when I walk through, I notice they still position themselves so they can grab a quick peek to see what's going on.  Maybe if you install surveillance cameras outside your home and put the monitors on the floor, lol?

 

[malama popoki]

I have considered installing a kittycam, so that I can see what they are up to while we're at work.  I was curious in the beginning, when I only had one cat, as to whether Mai Tai was bored being alone all day.   Turns out that I think she was just fine just being a solo act, but now we have two kitties thanks to Mom's weird notion of providing a "playmate".  I do think, however, that Mai Tai is warming up to the idea, and I'm seeing them play together sometimes.  I'm trying to let go of the sense that I have to follow them from room to room to make sure that they're not in a scrum.  It seems that the worst it gets is various wrestling holds and occasional hissing, which I'm figuring out is probably not as aggressive as it looks, because it goes from one end of the house to the other, first with Mai Tai in pursuit, then Tater, then Mai Tai again.  I think they are actually playing.  Also, both kitties are in good spirits after these boxing matches, and will lay on their sides a few feet from each other. 

Neither cat tries to escape when I enter or exit.  Mai Tai did this at first when I started walking her outside on a lead, but she stopped this behavior when I stopped taking her outside.  I didn't, however try walking her at the same time every day.  I might consider trying this with one of the harnesses that you recommended, as the one that I was using was a little cheesy, and she escaped it once or twice by doing a "death roll" like a gator.. 

 

[malama popoki]

Thanks willowy,  she is a rumpy manx.  She doesn't have a tail at all.  I had her checked out for Manx Syndrome when I first took her to the vet.  They don't seem to think that this is the case with her.  Her legs move independently, and she doesn't have the "bunny gait" that can accompany this defect. 

I don't know though, this could be something to have checked out if it continues..

 

[guitarmonster]

Cats are escape artists and they will do many different things to get out of a harness.  Usually what happens is the cat gets spooked and wants to retreat but the harness is holding him, so they freak out and twist and turn while backing up, so they usually end up backing right out of it.  Often when this happens, an owner's instinct will be to lower themselves to the ground (along with the leash), unfortunately this puts the leash in a position that only makes it easier for the cat to slip out.  With the kitty holster, if the cat starts to try to escape you shorten the leash and hold it up as high as you can, which pulls the harness up from the top.  When doing that you move yourself as close to your cat as you can, this actually eliminates the ability for the cat to achieve the right angle to escape.  Not only that but since you are right next to your cat, you can kneel down and pet him while speaking to him softly to calm him down.  My current cats seem to be just about alright when it comes to the harness, but years ago the cats I had before used to have bad freakouts.

 

[malama popoki]

I'll look into it!  Sounds promising, I know that Mai Tai already likes to walk on a lead.  I think Tater will be fine once she is comfortable with her indoor environment.

Speaking of which, she seems to be becoming more relaxed.  Took this pic today..

 

[malama popoki]

Just ordered two of the Kitty Holsters.  I figure spring is coming, and even if they don't both take to walking together on a lead, they will certainly appreciate hanging out on the veranda when the sun is shining! 

 

[guitarmonster]

Yeah, most indoor cats will be very hesitant at first and you have to work their way out slowly.  Eventually, if you work with them consistently enough, they will have no issue with walking all over the neighborhood.  If you find that you have a hard time taking one out I recommend trying at night since cats are nocturnal and they utilize the dark as part of their security.