New cat, excessive play and some aggression

[FizzyPoeWiby]

We added a 7 month old neutered, orange male tabby, to our household a little over a month ago. We had two neutered male cats, a Dsh and ragdoll, both about 3 yrs old, who are still very playful, love to spar, and get along well. We chose Wiby, the tabby, because he was still young to fit in, but old enough to take the play of our older two, enjoyed cuddles, but still playful. He is a rescue. Introductions took about a week, then supervised, then they were on their own. We noticed early how playful he was - more so than I've seen in a kitten before. We supplemented with additional interactive toys and more one on one play time. His play with our established cats was intense. Stampeding, midnight crazies at all hours, sparring. This has played eventually becomes more aggressive. It's starts as play, but then Wiby turns it into something more. I'm not sure if it is sexual dominance, territorial, or fighting for position. Our first two cats are not fond of it, they will end the fight if they can, try to walk away, but Wiby will charge from behind, landing on their back, starting it again. Loud claps, hissing (mine), etc, does not stop Wiby. Time out is about the only thing he hates or will stop the behavior for the time being. When not fighting or playing, wiby is wanting to be groomed and cuddled by the other two (and us).

As for play, this cat has energy. When not playing with us or the other two cats, He will play by himself and does so very often. He will run, jump, climb, somersault, flip out, etc, eyes dilated, looking crazed, until he literally is panting, chest heaving, and can no longer walk - he will actually start to army crawl! He runs so hard, that he will land and instantly fall asleep, until he wakes up and repeats. This is 24/7 behavior.

He has been to the vet when we first adopted him, clean bill of health, but we are taking him again in a couple days regarding behavior and sneezing that he has had since before adoption (may be herpes). Just wanted to get a feel for this, and any tricks to help out original cats feel more comfortable, and help out Wiby with his play induced aggression. BTW, he was neutered a little over 3 months ago. He is 8 months now. Also, is that type of excessive play normal? I've never had a cat play that hard, especially by themselves, and I don't want him to overdo it and make himself sick.

Thanks!

 

[rubysmama]

Hello and welcome to TCS. Congrats on the new "energizer bunny" kitten.

Some kittens do seem to have more energy than others.

Until other members reply, here a recent thread you might find helpful:
New kitten is way too active

 

[FeebysOwner]

Hi. Glad to see you are taking Wiby to the vet for his sneezing. It isn't likely that his play aggression is related to an illness, but you never know. Sometimes cats can get a bit more aggressive in their behavior when they don't feel 'right'.

Aside from being a very active kitten, it sounds like he gets himself overstimulated when playing and that is probably making him more aggressive. When he goes after the other cats, you might want to consider seeing if you can re-direct his attention elsewhere - perhaps toss him a 'kicker toy' that he can use to attack as opposed to your cats (see example below). A lot of the kicker toys have pouches for cat nip - and it might be worth it to test to see if that calms him down as it does with some cats (or, unfortunately as is the case in other cats, hypes him up even more ).

If re-directing his attention doesn't help any, I think you will need to teach him 'cat manners' since your older cats aren't doing it. That means when he attacks one of them, pick him up, say a firm 'no' or hiss (pick one and stick with it), and then put him in time out - as you said you have already found to be effective. But, the key is to consistently do this each and every time he goes after one of the other cats. Until you can start to see results from this, I would think it would be best if you separate him from your other cats when no one is home to supervise. Perhaps buy him some interactive toys he can play while you are gone.

 

[susanm9006]

I am of the belief that the best intervention for a aggressive and pesky kitten is none at all. Cats have a built in instinct not to hurt kittens and because of that they will put up with all sorts of annoying obnoxious behavior. However as the kitten matures they will start to discipline, first his hisses and howls but then with slaps and nips that will let the kitten know they won’t tolerate that kind of behavior. Now if you had two elderly cats or declawed resident cats you might need to step in but with a couple of healthy three year olds you need to let them do the disciplining when they are ready to do it. Your involvement will just confuse all three and ultimately can affect their long term relationship.

So the only intervention I would suggest is trying to distract them with play if the noise gets too loud for you and maybe getting yourself a pair of earplugs. And yes, he sounds like an absolutely normal adolescent cat.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Now if you had two elderly cats or declawed resident cats you might need to step in but with a couple of healthy three year olds you need to let them do the disciplining when they are ready to do it. Your involvement will just confuse all three and ultimately can affect their long term relationship.

You know your cats best - if you think they will eventually get around to taking matters into their own hands before they are negatively impacted by it, then go the above noted direction. However, you do stand the chance of affecting your long term relationship with them, if they don't end up handling this kitten on their own.

Either way, please keep us posted on how things progress - as well as how Wiby's vet visit goes!!!

 

[FizzyPoeWiby]

Thank you, you have given some excellent suggestions. Catnip does seem to over excite Wiby, but I think he kicker toy will still be just as effective without it.

I'm curious about the other two teaching him the "cat manners" you mentioned. With my first two, the pecking order was established fairly early, the initial swipes and fights were mostly quick and painless and they settled into their routine. Should I let Wiby and the other two fight it out a bit, supervised of course, longer than I do? Am I interrupting cat culture? While the resident cats will fight back, they walk away when they feel they've won, but wiby always comes back with more from the rear. There's never been blood or fur loss, just tail swishing, dilated eyes, and ears back - all mostly on the part of wiby until it goes too far. They do play and groom, so I know not all is lost, but I wonder if stopping it too early is perhaps limiting the teaching of the manners or not allowing the heirarchy to be established? Or is it best to redirect right away? Thanks!

 

[She's a witch]

I am of the belief that the best intervention for a aggressive and pesky kitten is none at all. Cats have a built in instinct not to hurt kittens and because of that they will put up with all sorts of annoying obnoxious behavior. However as the kitten matures they will start to discipline, first his hisses and howls but then with slaps and nips that will let the kitten know they won’t tolerate that kind of behavior. Now if you had two elderly cats or declawed resident cats you might need to step in but with a couple of healthy three year olds you need to let them do the disciplining when they are ready to do it. Your involvement will just confuse all three and ultimately can affect their long term relationship.

So the only intervention I would suggest is trying to distract them with play if the noise gets too loud for you and maybe getting yourself a pair of earplugs. And yes, he sounds like an absolutely normal adolescent cat.

I couldn’t agree more with it, your two adult cats are more than capable of letting your little one know he’s too much for them, and Wiby will understand their language much better than your intervention. From my experience and observations cats don’t really understand humans’s interference with their relationship the way that people intend them to understand. I would probably just make sure that the older ones have some space to hide and relax away from Wiby, eg somewhere high where the youngest one wont get yet. Or even small box or cat bed that would fit one cat only where they can guard themselves.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Once the two cats walk away, and Wiby still goes after them, what do they do then? Run or turn around and re-face him? That would be key to help determine the best approach. However, it is good that they do get along part of the time. Still, I think re-directing Wiby's attention when you can is a good idea.

 

[ArtNJ]

Just a note on a discrete topic: when a cat briefly plays like it is on drugs, that is a well known phenomena called the zoomies. During an episode of the zoomies, cats do weird stuff like bounce off the walls. Usually lasts up to 10 or even 15 minutes per episode, often occurring at around the same time of day. Some stuff online suggests its related to pent up energy, but even some not-that active older cats will have an episode a day so I'm uncertain of that explanation -- it may just be some circadian rhythm or metabolic thing. Anyway, its normal. While I side with She's a witch about not actively discouraging rough play, redirecting a cat with the zoomies from bothering the other cats using a lure toy or tossing treats is logical. Don't actually touch a cat with the zoomies, you'll get scratched.

I've not seen any evidence that a rough over-player can be taught to play more gently, and think that is a waste of time at best. Redirecting to give beleaguered pets a break is fine of course, but the main way it improves is leaving them to work it out, and with the passage of time. I always say let the cats be your guide as to whether you have a problem, and if the two older ones are willing to groom the younger in the rare moments he is calm, that tells you that you don't have a serious problem. Cats hold grudges, and if the younger one was truly crossing lines in a serious way, they wouldn't be so quick to forgive and forget.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Well, if you go with votes on what to do, I am outnumbered!!!! I hope to hear soon that your 3yos put Wiby in his place - soon!!!!

 

[She's a witch]

Just a note on a discrete topic: when a cat briefly plays like it is on drugs, that is a well known phenomena called the zoomies. During an episode of the zoomies, cats do weird stuff like bounce off the walls. Usually lasts up to 10 or even 15 minutes per episode, often occurring at around the same time of day. Some stuff online suggests its related to pent up energy, but even some not-that active older cats will have an episode a day so I'm uncertain of that explanation -- it may just be some circadian rhythm or metabolic thing. Anyway, its normal. While I side with She's a witch about not actively discouraging rough play, redirecting a cat with the zoomies from bothering the other cats using a lure toy or tossing treats is logical. Don't actually touch a cat with the zoomies, you'll get scratched.

I've not seen any evidence that a rough over-player can be taught to play more gently, and think that is a waste of time at best. Redirecting to give beleaguered pets a break is fine of course, but the main way it improves is leaving them to work it out, and with the passage of time.

Agreed! Not sure what the official stand is (if any) but to me, redirection hardly counts as intervention. In fact, I sort of do this myself, when my boy gets too rough with my smaller girl and I feel she could use a break, I act like nothing happens and start doing something that I know both of them would find interesting, like open some unopened package, open the closet door that is usually closed etc. Almost always I find out that two of them are next to me curiously checking what’s happening.
Re zoomies, I chose to cover my head with the blanket this morning when we had “double zoomies” and both cats were unrespectfully chasing themself through my head.. I agree, definitely I wouldn’t try to touch a cat in zoomies!

 

[engine4154]

"but then Wiby turns it into something more. I'm not sure if it is sexual dominance, territorial, or fighting for position. Our first two cats are not fond of it, they will end the fight if they can, try to walk away, but Wiby will charge from behind, landing on their back, starting it again."

Going through the exact same thing here. Friday is a total terror when he wants to 'play' with Bonnie and Clyde. Clyde, the gentle giant that he is, puts up with it for a while, the starts growling and hissing and eventually walks or runs off to the bedroom with Friday on his tail.

When it comes to Bonnie, she lets him know when enough is enough and he seems to understand. She's 4, Clyde just turned 7 but acts like a kitten when we play. Friday is just over 6 months and was neutered just before Christmas. I'll give a try to the advice given here. I just hate seeing Clyde looking miserable at times. Right now, however, they're sleeping on the same bed and Bonnie is watching me type.

 

[Jemima Lucca]

I have the same issue with my 2 cats and they’re both kittens. I got Jemima first, then when she was 5 mths old we got Lucca. He was small for his age but held his win play. But now he’s 4 1/2 mths old and is considerably bigger then Jemima. Probably by 2lbs and he’s “dense” also. She does try to ignore him and groom him but he’s opposed to that. Jemima’ Saving grace; she is a lot more agile and can easily jump where Lucca can’t. I do give him a time out in the bedroom to calm him down. But I’m worried about her because she’s smaller and her bone structure is thinner and more delicate. So I’m also not sure what’s right regarding this problem

 

[ArtNJ]

But I’m worried about her because she’s smaller and her bone structure is thinner and more delicate.

Over the last few years, I have seen a couple of posts regarding accidental play injuries. It does happen. However, they are almost all claw-related scratches. Oh, it wouldn't surprise me if there are a bunch of muscle pulls that cats dont tell us about -- they are notorious for not showing pain and all -- but clearly cats are not breaking each others bones by jumping on them or wrestling crazy vigorously. Also, while cats may not show pain directly, they do very much hold grudges. A cat that avoids another cat *only* during rough play, and comes back out shortly after rough play when the "aggressor" is ready to chill, is just not a cat that views itself as having been hurt. Such a cat is telling you that there is no serious problem. Size differences are super common, and I won't pretend they don't matter; they often do. It is very common for the smaller cat to be the one that runs from play, and sometimes they will end up never initiating & always seeking to avoid such play. But if they don't avoid the big cat at non-play times, there is no serious problem. Play that looks crazy rough to humans can be totally normal to cats -- we really do have to let the kitties be our guide to whether there is a problem.

Hope this helps. Its normal to worry. But if your kitty isn't worried outside of the actual rough play itself, I don't think you need to be. Its when a kitty is hiding all the time and acting generally terrified of the other cat that I allow myself to really worry.

 

[Jemima Lucca]

Over the last few years, I have seen a couple of posts regarding accidental play injuries. It does happen. However, they are almost all claw-related scratches. Oh, it wouldn't surprise me if there are a bunch of muscle pulls that cats dont tell us about -- they are notorious for not showing pain and all -- but clearly cats are not breaking each others bones by jumping on them or wrestling crazy vigorously. Also, while cats may not show pain directly, they do very much hold grudges. A cat that avoids another cat *only* during rough play, and comes back out shortly after rough play when the "aggressor" is ready to chill, is just not a cat that views itself as having been hurt. Such a cat is telling you that there is no serious problem. Size differences are super common, and I won't pretend they don't matter; they often do. It is very common for the smaller cat to be the one that runs from play, and sometimes they will end up never initiating & always seeking to avoid such play. But if they don't avoid the big cat at non-play times, there is no serious problem. Play that looks crazy rough to humans can be totally normal to cats -- we really do have to let the kitties be our guide to whether there is a problem.

Hope this helps. Its normal to worry. But if your kitty isn't worried outside of the actual rough play itself, I don't think you need to be. Its when a kitty is hiding all the time and acting generally terrified of the other cat that I allow myself to really worry.

Thank you, that really does make me feel better

 

[AppleBlue813]

I am dealing with something very similar! My new cat goes between trying to be cute and playful towards my resident cat, to being kind of aggressive and forward. Because of this my resident cat ia tolerating him less it seems and will "hide" to avoid the new cat getting too close. The new cat seems to also have aggressive amounts of energy but it's hard finding toys to help with this as he's sort of lazy about playing or just loses interest quickly. He has even taken to pouncing my blind dachshund when every my dachshund walks by, and it is totally unprovoked. He doesn't seem to hurt the dog as the dog isn't yellping, but it confuses my poor dog because he doesn't understand why he is being whapped on his backside. I usually say NO and stop the new cat. I'm hoping you find answers and get some improvement for your situation, and hopefully I will find some good suggestions too from other people's comments

 

[She's a witch]

I have the same issue with my 2 cats and they’re both kittens. I got Jemima first, then when she was 5 mths old we got Lucca. He was small for his age but held his win play. But now he’s 4 1/2 mths old and is considerably bigger then Jemima. Probably by 2lbs and he’s “dense” also. She does try to ignore him and groom him but he’s opposed to that. Jemima’ Saving grace; she is a lot more agile and can easily jump where Lucca can’t. I do give him a time out in the bedroom to calm him down. But I’m worried about her because she’s smaller and her bone structure is thinner and more delicate. So I’m also not sure what’s right regarding this problem

I have similar dynamic at home, big muscular boy and a delicate looking girl who weights two kilograms less. Over the years she learned how to deal with him wanting to rough play with her, what language to use or where to “hit” him so that he gets the message. Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn’t and she needs to retrieve to the place he can’t get. She looks so proud and confident when she’s up on a mantelpiece or on a fridge where he can’t get As A ArtNJ said, mine and your girl won’t get hurt unless accidentally or if they start to fight for real which is completely different to what’s happening between them now.

Your girl can find places to get away from your boy, I wouldn’t give him any time outs to calm him. You’re trying to punish him for wanting to play, and aside from the fact that he may simply not understand why he’s being isolated, wanting to play in a cat - especially in a kitten - is the most natural thing and if you try to suppress that need, it can lead to boredom and frustration which in turn can lead to some other problems. If I were you, I’d play with him more myself to get as much energy out as possible

 

[Jemima Lucca]

Good news fizzypoewiby; my kittens do like each other! I saw Lucca (my little Sherman tank lol) licking Jemima while she was sleeping , truly amazing as I thought he was kind of aggressive with his “big” sister. I’ve put him in our bedroom for short time outs to calm him, maybe 1-3 minutes, which works btw. But she’s actually taught him to be nice by ignoring him when he bites her and licking him if he gets too rough. They do have a way to work it out! Thanks to everyone who’s offered their help with this issue