NEED to curb this naughty behavior...

[minka]

Grim is a sweet cat. You couldn't ask for a nicer one. But man is he NAUGHTY!

He's always knocking things over, waking me up all night, stealing people's food, jumping on the counter, begging for food, and making a huge fuss whenever I'm preparing it, and it's driving me NUTS.

I always correct him when he does bad things, either by pushing him away from the object or area, and making a fuss about it, with 'HEY!' 'AH-AH' and other various loud noises and sometimes chasing him away from the area as well and giving him the stink eye. He KNOWS when he's does something bad because he usually does the running away himself as soon as I catch him and then puts his head down and looks at me guiltily. But it doesn't ever stop him!

At night, he used to turn my computer on, over and over and over again, and no matter how much of a fuss I make or how I yell, he goes RIGHT back to doing it. I now have to hit the main switch on the back of the computer at night otherwise I'll never get any sleep...

Just now, when I was preparing his dinner (raw today), I sat down for a minute while the meat was defrosting in a cup of water and I heard a rustle in the kitchen (which is only... 8 feet away from me btw) and sure enough, there he was with his head in the bag, trying to steal a baggie of meat... I shooed him away and continued preparing while he swirled around my feet, meowed every 20 seconds and tried to reach up onto the counter...

I fed him a Large almost 2.5oz chunk that he spent a good deal of time on. A few minutes later AGAIN he's on the counter, sniffing around, looking for scraps...


I'm going to lose it...

 

[minka]

Oh, and scratching under doors. That's the big one. It would solve a lot of my problems if I could lock him out of my bedroom when he's being naughty, but I can't because when I wake up in the morning, there would be no carpet under the door.... And I live in an apartment, so it's not like we can replace the carpet with wood like we did before...

 

[drbobcat]

I don't believe cats can be naughty since "naughty" implies a moral shortcoming of some kind.  Sounds to me as if Grim is just being a cat.  I would just tackle each problem individually.  Shut off your computer as you're doing, remove objects he could knock over, leave doors open so you don't get the scratching under doors.  Keep him off counters and tables by using sticky tape or other deterrents.  It's also possible that this is all a game for Grim, doing stuff and getting caught, running away.  Sounds like fun to a cat!  Increase your playtime and try to wear him out or chase him around for fun instead of punishment.  Reward him when he does things you like.  Is he a kitten?  He may grow out of this behavior.  Good luck!

 

[Willowy]

For under the door, get one of those heavy plastic carpet protectors that people put under their office chairs, and cut to fit. It's super hard to cut! But works great.

And, yeah, some kitties do like to do "naughty" things for the attention. Negative attention is still attention! Ignoring him would likely be more effective in the long run, but be prepared for escalation before extinction. And ignoring it is terribly hard to do. But if you put away everything important it would be easier to ignore the naughtiness. Only give attention when he's doing something you like.

 

[minka]

Well, he Does know he's not supposed to be doing them, because he usually runs away when he is caught, so I would say 'naughty' applies.
I know the knocking stuff over is to Get my attention (so I can feed him...) but I don't think it's For attention. When he's caught, he doesn't run away with his tail up or come back for pets, he puts his ears down and his eyes wide, he is not ever happy about being caught.

I've been told to try the plastic under the door, I just can't afford it right now. It's a problem in that I want to be able to close him out, but it's Not a problem in that because of that, I never close any doors, so they are always open.

Grim is six years old, and I'd say he's fairly active. I just bought him some new toys for Christmas, the problem is he is too smart to stay interested in the same toy for very long. X_X

Sometimes ignoring him works, but unfortunately it only works in some situations. Depending on what he's trying to push off, I sometimes Can't ignore it, like the time he pushed my tv over.... Or when he's on the counter if he's ripping open a bag of bread.

*sigh*

 

[orientalslave]

He sounds bored to me.  It costs very little to make some toys to play with him with - not just leave out for him to use on his own - and in my view saving for the carpet protectors so you can shut him out of rooms will really help.  Another thing that might help is something raw that takes real effort to eat - chicken wings come to mind.  However he might have to 'kill' those which can be messy...

(edit) if you feed him any sort of treats, or any kind of dry food, try hiding it around the place and tucking little bits inside things, so fhat finding them will take him time.  I also suspect he might be quite bright so you might like to look up clicker training for cats and have a go.

 

[minka]

I do make sure to play With him :nod: but like I said, he gets tired of it so easily. He doesn't even stay interested in a laser pointer for more than 30 seconds.. X__X

I have zero income right now, so the only thing I can afford is his and my food. Mid-January I'll finally have some, but until then, I can't buy anything.

I'm also not sure I Want to encourage him to find food places. He already has an insane hunger drive. That's what most of his problems step from: counter jumping, food stealing, knocking things over, etc

Hurry up January...

 

[orientalslave]

He already has the food drive, but if he has to work harder to find food in places you have put it in that it's OK for him to go, hopefully it will take him a lot longer and sarisfy the drive better.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Gosh, I just checked into clicker training for cats!  How cool is that?  And if you are lucky enough to live in the Denver area, you can attend classes on it.  Too bad it's about a 14 hour drive!  Oriental Slave, have you done this?  I'm just wondering if it's possible to train more than one cat at a time with the clicker.  My problem is that I don't think there is anywhere in my house where I could do this whee the other cats couldn't hear the clicker (if I were to try training one at a time), and I really want to try this, since I also have a naughty cat (ie bored cat) here.

 

[nekochan]

if you can save up abit, you should be able to get a roll of plastic/vinyl carpet protector/runner stuff with the nubs on the back for about $10 or less at a hardware store. It is very similar to the stuff they put under chairs except a bit softer and much easier to cut, narrow since it is on a roll, and much cheaper than the big sheets that are made for going under an office chair.
Like this:

 

[Willowy]

I've tried that and it really is too soft/flexible to work for very determined cats. At least as an under-door protector---it works pretty good as a "poor man's Scat Mat" (put it upside-down in places you don't want the cat to go). Better to drop the $25 for a chair mat, IMO, rather than buy the thinner stuff and find out it doesn't work. You can usually get 3 door protectors from one chair mat. Maybe check the thrift stores for a used one? Can't say I've ever seen one at a thrift store but then I wasn't looking :tongue2:.

 

[minka]

Like, I said, I have Zero income so there's nothing to save. But come middle of January, I will have some, and I think this is the first thing I will buy. And maybe a clicker

And thanks Willowy for the tip. He's a big cat, so I don't have any doubt he'd be able to dig up a flimsy one..

 

[eb24]

I highly recommend doing clicker training with him. It's easy to do and very mentally stimulating. What you are doing now (chasing him, making loud noises, ect) are all forms of negative reinforcement. Clicker training is a positive form of reinforcement that not only re-directs negative energy but helps to strengthen the bond you have together. If you are consistent with it I think you could easily re-direct the majority of these behaviors. Once he catches on that he gets treats for doing certain things you will be amazed how much more often you see those behaviors and not the others! 

Honestly, you don't even need the clicker to do it. You can make a click with your tongue, use the lid from a juice bottle, or find another object that makes a sharp, soft noise to mark the behavior (just make sure it's a noise you don't make any other time). I also have found it's easiest to start by using a target. I have a clicker stick but you can just use the handle side of a wooden spoon. Start by just making the clicking sound and giving a treat a few times in a row when he's doing something good (like laying on the couch) to "charge" the sound. Then, click and treat every time he touches his nose to the end of the spoon. As soon as he figures out that the touch and the sound = treat it's limitless on what you can get him to do! I started working with my kitten about 4 months ago and it's been a lot of fun. It does take some time to get to the more advanced stuff but now I can mark him to just about anywhere and he will stay waiting for his treat- even sits quietly on his stool while I fix his dinner! Just do a google search and you can find lots of videos and other examples to help you get going. 

Also, did you just move to a smaller space? He may be feeling a little more cramped by not having as much room to run and explore. When in smaller places you really have to make an effort to maximize your vertical space. Even just clearing off a spot for him on a bookcase or shelf may help give him more places to go and explore. When you do have some cash just buy a piece of plywood and make your own shelves for him to climb on. A little creativity can go a long way! 

As far as scratching under the doors I just use the no-scratch strips that they sell at the pet store and use that to secure down the carpet under the doors and in the corners where they like to scratch. If you are really desperate you could probably use clear packing tape and get the same effect. It won't be great for the carpet when you pull it up but that's one of the perks of renting! 

Part of his behavior does just sound like him being a cat and you have to keep finding ways to work around it. But, adding more mental stimulation and special places for him to go isn't going to hurt!

 

[minka]

I tried to do my own make-shift clicker training, but I'm not sure how well it worked xD I used a flashlight that makes a small click when you turn it on and off, but I don't think it was loud enough. For the target, I used the pole from one of those cat 'fishing' toys and put a small plastic container on the end. :lol3:
I have NEVER see his tail get so bushy in all his life. :lol3: I'm not sure he got what was going on, he just couldn't believe I was being so generous with treats!
We did 'associate click with treat' thing, and then a little sitting and target practice, but I'm not sure if he caught on, but it's no big deal. I'll get serious about it once I get a real clicker.

Btw, don't worry guys, he gets LOTS of praise normally, so it's not just me chasing him around. I'll tell him he's a good boy randomly for no reason, and he always gets lots of praise when I have to clip his nails or give him ear drops. He's always wedged between me and my computer, getting lots of pets and love.




______________
Only on day one and I'm already unconvinced this will work...
I've kind of hummed and hawwed over this post for a few hours, just cuz I've been busy and whatever, so here we are, about 4-5 hours after the training, and he's chasing me around for food again..
He got literally HALF a bag of these treats http://www.petco.com/product/119257...Cat-Treats.aspx?CoreCat=MM_CatSupplies_Treats and was fed *just* an hour and a half ago....
I tried to make myself a sandwich and he's under my feet and zooming around and reaching up on the counter again....
I've said many times to my friends, this cat would literally eat until he exploded.. and I MEAN it.

 

[orientalslave]

Shut him out of the kitchen when you are cooking / eating, and don't give in to him demanding treats.  Everytime you give him a treat to try to stop him begging you reinforce the behaviour.

(edit) and it will take time and patience for things to change.  Time as in weeks, not hours.

 

[callista]

You have a genius cat who's going crazy looking for ways to figure the world out! I would be willing to bet that he's training you rather than the other way around. Clicker training is an interesting possibility. Teach him to do tricks, maybe. He's food-motivated, so he might enjoy working for food. You should get lots of interesting objects for him to manipulate, safe things. Don't have to spend money on it--you can tie a knot in an old sock, throw him paper balls, hang toilet paper rolls by each end and put a treat in the middle for him to push out. Maybe he'd like to fetch. Or you could tie a small toy to the end of a strong length of string, tie the other end of the string to a random long, stiff object (cooking spoon, maybe?) and you have a home-made kitty teaser. Pushing a dresser up to a window so he can gaze out of it would keep him occupied. Some cats like to watch TV, especially LCD TVs (which refresh much faster, unlike the old-style ones which cats, and some humans, could see flickering and often found very irritating--I know I did).

Try talking to owners of smart, energetic breeds (*glances at OrientalSlave*) for advice about how they keep their cats busy. Bengals, Abyssinians... Siamese and similar, I'm sure. A few others. People have even built treadmills and running wheels for their cats. Some cats go on walks outside, on leash and harness. Some like to play fetch.

Oh, here's a blog I read sometimes; this link is to an article about "Alpha cats"--a term the blogger made up to talk about inquisitive, quick-minded, quick-pawed cats who sound a lot like yours.
http://www.wayofcats.com/blog/know-the-types-the-alpha/38

 

[eb24]

Shut him out of the kitchen when you are cooking / eating, and don't give in to him demanding treats.  Everytime you give him a treat to try to stop him begging you reinforce the behaviour.

(edit) and it will take time and patience for things to change.  Time as in weeks, not hours.

I think this is a crucial point. Never reinforce begging behaviors with treats. 

I would encourage you to continue with clicker training but as OS says any changes will take significant time so don't be discouraged yet. We don't train here when Diego wants to, we train when I want to. And, I always start a session when he's doing an appropriate behavior. Any begging ends a session right there, and we start again when he calms down. I know it was easier for me to do this with him because Diego was so young when we started. But, your starting with a very intelligent adult. It will take more time and energy for any changes to stick. 

Grim gets what he wants now so why would he change any of his behaviors? You have to make it lucrative for him. And, that may mean starting by clicker-ing all his meals to him. If he knows he only eats when he does what you say he might shape up quicker! 

 

[orientalslave]

<snip>
Try talking to owners of smart, energetic breeds (*glances at OrientalSlave*) for advice about how they keep their cats busy. <snip>

I put up a bird feeding station which they can see, and I cat-proofed the back garden so they have a much bigger area to live in with far more variety than you get in a house.  It's really surprising what weather they go out in - almost anything except rain.  I also have a feather on string on fishing rod toy - one with a very long rod - and 10-15 minutes of that followed by some catnip treats helps.  If my problem cat (she hates the female kitten and attacks her) ate dry food I would hide that round the place, and put some in things for her to work at getting them out.  'things' means the card tube from the middle of a toilet roll and so on.  However she's the one that won't touch it...  I'm doing that with the catnip treats but haven't worked out what a good way to do it is, and she has to realise that is going on.

 

[minka]

Shut him out of the kitchen when you are cooking / eating, and don't give in to him demanding treats.  Everytime you give him a treat to try to stop him begging you reinforce the behaviour.

(edit) and it will take time and patience for things to change.  Time as in weeks, not hours.

I can't shut him out of the kitchen because then he will tear up the carpet under my door.
Also, I never ever said (or do!) give him treats while I'm cooking.

You have a genius cat who's going crazy looking for ways to figure the world out! I would be willing to bet that he's training you rather than the other way around. Clicker training is an interesting possibility. Teach him to do tricks, maybe. He's food-motivated, so he might enjoy working for food. You should get lots of interesting objects for him to manipulate, safe things. Don't have to spend money on it--you can tie a knot in an old sock, throw him paper balls, hang toilet paper rolls by each end and put a treat in the middle for him to push out. Maybe he'd like to fetch. Or you could tie a small toy to the end of a strong length of string, tie the other end of the string to a random long, stiff object (cooking spoon, maybe?) and you have a home-made kitty teaser. Pushing a dresser up to a window so he can gaze out of it would keep him occupied. Some cats like to watch TV, especially LCD TVs (which refresh much faster, unlike the old-style ones which cats, and some humans, could see flickering and often found very irritating--I know I did).

Try talking to owners of smart, energetic breeds (*glances at OrientalSlave*) for advice about how they keep their cats busy. Bengals, Abyssinians... Siamese and similar, I'm sure. A few others. People have even built treadmills and running wheels for their cats. Some cats go on walks outside, on leash and harness. Some like to play fetch.

He's got plenty of toys, (including Da Bird) but I'll try making some of the things you suggested.
He has 2 nice big windows to view out of; one looks over a 7 lane intersection and part of the roof which has birdies :cat: and the other over the parking lot and some trees.
Carolina let me borrow the Cat Sitter DVD. Now if only I could find it....
I used to let him out supervised/walk him at my old place, but I'm not too sure about doing it here. There is no quick rushing back inside if he gets scared as I'm three stories up, and it's very busy, lots of people. I think I'd be too much for him. X_X

Grim gets what he wants now so why would he change any of his behaviors? You have to make it lucrative for him. And, that may mean starting by clicker-ing all his meals to him. If he knows he only eats when he does what you say he might shape up quicker! 

He doesn't get what he wants, that's why I'm so frustrated! If he's doing something naughty, he either gets ignored (if he is not physically destroying something), or chastised and then ignored.
He doesn't get treats for begging and he gets fed at the same time every day.
Even with the underdoor scratching, I try to use canned air to puff at him, and then only open when he's not begging. He's never scratched at a back door before, so it never started on the one leading to our porch, and I've made sure to ignore all of that kind of behavior there because otherwise that door would be ruined in an instant because I can't leave it open.

Also, did you just move to a smaller space? He may be feeling a little more cramped by not having as much room to run and explore.

Actually I moved to a *bigger* space. He's got 3 times more space than he did before.

 

[minka]

Shut him out of the kitchen when you are cooking / eating, and don't give in to him demanding treats.  Everytime you give him a treat to try to stop him begging you reinforce the behaviour.

(edit) and it will take time and patience for things to change.  Time as in weeks, not hours.

I can't shut him out of the kitchen because then he will tear up the carpet under my door.
Also, I never ever said (or do!) give him treats while I'm cooking.

You have a genius cat who's going crazy looking for ways to figure the world out! I would be willing to bet that he's training you rather than the other way around. Clicker training is an interesting possibility. Teach him to do tricks, maybe. He's food-motivated, so he might enjoy working for food. You should get lots of interesting objects for him to manipulate, safe things. Don't have to spend money on it--you can tie a knot in an old sock, throw him paper balls, hang toilet paper rolls by each end and put a treat in the middle for him to push out. Maybe he'd like to fetch. Or you could tie a small toy to the end of a strong length of string, tie the other end of the string to a random long, stiff object (cooking spoon, maybe?) and you have a home-made kitty teaser. Pushing a dresser up to a window so he can gaze out of it would keep him occupied. Some cats like to watch TV, especially LCD TVs (which refresh much faster, unlike the old-style ones which cats, and some humans, could see flickering and often found very irritating--I know I did).

Try talking to owners of smart, energetic breeds (*glances at OrientalSlave*) for advice about how they keep their cats busy. Bengals, Abyssinians... Siamese and similar, I'm sure. A few others. People have even built treadmills and running wheels for their cats. Some cats go on walks outside, on leash and harness. Some like to play fetch.

He's got plenty of toys, (including Da Bird) but I'll try making some of the things you suggested.
He has 2 nice big windows to view out of; one looks over a 7 lane intersection and part of the roof which has birdies :cat: and the other over the parking lot and some trees.
Carolina let me borrow the Cat Sitter DVD. Now if only I could find it....
I used to let him out supervised/walk him at my old place, but I'm not too sure about doing it here. There is no quick rushing back inside if he gets scared as I'm three stories up, and it's very busy, lots of people. I think I'd be too much for him. X_X

Grim gets what he wants now so why would he change any of his behaviors? You have to make it lucrative for him. And, that may mean starting by clicker-ing all his meals to him. If he knows he only eats when he does what you say he might shape up quicker! 

He doesn't get what he wants, that's why I'm so frustrated! If he's doing something naughty, he either gets ignored (if he is not physically destroying something), or chastised and then ignored.
He doesn't get treats for begging and he gets fed at the same time every day.
Even with the underdoor scratching, I try to use canned air to puff at him, and then only open when he's not begging. He's never scratched at a back door before, so it never started on the one leading to our porch, and I've made sure to ignore all of that kind of behavior there because otherwise that door would be ruined in an instant because I can't leave it open.

Also, did you just move to a smaller space? He may be feeling a little more cramped by not having as much room to run and explore.

Actually I moved to a *bigger* space. He's got 3 times more space than he did before.




Btw, I'm not trying to make excuses, only answer to your questions.
As soon as I get money, I'll be buying a clicker and something to protect the carpet, but until then, I don't think there is *too* much I can do.