Nature's Variety mixing kibble with raw

[mschauer]

It helps to read the whole reports, really, and there are so many to choose from. I just tossed a few out here because they pertained to the FNES piece that summarizes it succinctly.

The point is that it's a complex subject - and the issues of carbs themselves is complex - it depends upon which carbs and how they break down - so there's no one scientific study (I'm aware of) that says "it takes x amount of time to digest carbs, and it takes x amount of time to digest protein, and the the differing rates cause these effects."

If you want more studies, I'm happy to provide them. There's a very large body of research that's been done, though most of the full studies aren't available online. I merely wanted to point out that the FNES piece isn't full of conjecture, there is science to back up the statements (and a lot of it, so much of it, that it's difficult to say "here, this one study addresses the question.").

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that. Even the FNES actually says "carbohydrates can interfere ...". That's *can* not *do*. 

so there's no one scientific study (I'm aware of) that says "it takes x amount of time to digest carbs, and it takes x amount of time to digest protein, and the the differing rates cause these effects."

Given that isn't it conjecture to make a claim that there definitely is some effect. 

 

[ldg]

Given that isn't it conjecture to make a claim that there definitely is some effect. :dk:

I'm not understanding?

 

[mschauer]

Given that isn't it conjecture to make a claim that there definitely is some effect. 

I'm not understanding?

You wrote:

so there's no one scientific study (I'm aware of) that says "it takes x amount of time to digest carbs, and it takes x amount of time to digest protein, and the the differing rates cause these effects."

And yet people claim there are dire effects from mixing kibble and raw. So they are making a claim without sufficient evidence to back it up. That's what conjecture is.

 

[mschauer]

How does this pertain to mixing raw and kibble? It is just talking about the affect of consuming carbohydrates isn't it? I mean that is an argument for not feeding carbs not for not mixing kibble and raw??

Carbohydrates break down into their components in the process of digestion.

From the Wiki

The term is most common in biochemistry, where it is a synonym of saccharide. The carbohydrates (saccharides) are divided into four chemical groupings: monosaccharides, disaccharides, oligosaccharides, and polysaccharides. In general, the monosaccharides and disaccharides, which are smaller (lower molecular weight) carbohydrates, are commonly referred to as sugars.[1] The word saccharide comes from the Greek word σάκχαρον (sákkharon), meaning "sugar". While the scientific nomenclature of carbohydrates is complex, the names of the monosaccharides and disaccharides very often end in the suffix -ose. For example, blood sugar is the monosaccharide glucose, table sugar is the disaccharide sucrose, and milk sugar is the disaccharide lactose (see illustration).

....

In food science and in many informal contexts, the term carbohydrate often means any food that is particularly rich in the complex carbohydrate starch (such as cereals, bread, and pasta) or simple carbohydrates, such as sugar (found in candy, jams, and desserts).

Carbs are starches (complex) and sugars (simple). They are fermentable (starches and sugars) and unfermentable (fiber). Clearly, the composition of the carb will have an impact on the topic of discussion (transit time, nutrient absorption, pH of various segments of the GI system, gut flora, etc.).

...but this is why there's no simple, direct answer/study. Again - I found the FNES summary to be the most succinct.

Sorry, I still don't see what that has to do with mixing kibble and raw???

 

[ldg]

:lol3: I understand the meaning of the word "conjecture." But my point is that it's not conjecture. Whether it will cause gastric upset, or illness is dependent on the cat. But that mixing carbs and proteins affects digestion all throughout the system isn't conjecture. :dk: That it can cause problems isn't conjecture, and is documented in terms of nutrient bioavailability, altering the gut flora and/or pH at various places in the digestive tract... I don't know that anyone's saying it WILL cause problems. But to recommend not feeding them together because there can be problems does have a scientific basis.

But that carbs digest at a differing rate isn't conjecture, and that was really the point, no? Does it always cause problems? No. But that it can - is that enough to recommend not feeding them together? Perhaps it's more of one of those things people should be aware of. If your cat has an issue, it could be due to....

:dk:

 

[ldg]

Sorry, I still don't see what that has to do with mixing kibble and raw???

I apparently misunderstood your question. I thought what you were asking what the sugars have to do with it. I was pretty sure you knew carbs broke down into starch and sugar, but addressed it anyway. :lol3:

The quote was simply one example addressing the point of digestion time ( "a slow metabolism of fructose"), that's the context for inclusion as re: this discussion.

 

[mschauer]

I understand the meaning of the word "conjecture." But my point is that it's not conjecture. Whether it will cause gastric upset, or illness is dependent on the cat. But that mixing carbs and proteins affects digestion all throughout the system isn't conjecture.

That it can cause problems isn't conjecture, and is documented in terms of nutrient bioavailability, altering the gut flora and/or pH at various places in the digestive tract... I don't know that anyone's saying it WILL cause problems. But to recommend not feeding them together because there can be problems does have a scientific basis.

But that carbs digest at a differing rate isn't conjecture, and that was really the point, no? Does it always cause problems? No. But that it can - is that enough to recommend not feeding them together? Perhaps it's more of one of those things people should be aware of. If your cat has an issue, it could be due to....

Again, we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not aware of any science to back up the claim that mixing kibble and raw will cause any problem what so ever.

I certainly disagree with this:

 I don't know that anyone's saying it WILL cause problems

It's quite common for people in these forums strongly imply that something apocalyptic will happen if kibble is mixed with raw. I would have no problem with people just saying something like "It is not recommended to mix raw and kibble but there is no known problem with doing it." 

In short, there is no reason to scare people away from doing something that might help with the transition from kibble to raw.

 

[ldg]

It's quite common for people in these forums strongly imply that something apocalyptic will happen if kibble is mixed with raw. I would have no problem with people just saying something like "It is not recommended to mix raw and kibble but there is no known problem with doing it." 

In short, there is no reason to scare people away from doing something that might help with the transition from kibble to raw.

I didn't realize you were talking about posts in the forums in general. I thought we were discussing comments made in this thread.

I'm sure some people have made apocalyptic claims. :lol3: But I've not seen anyone - when someone asks for transition guidance - scare anybody with the "don't feed raw and kibble" thing. Given Carolina's success in transitioning Lucky directly from kibble to raw, I believe the usual recommendation, from people most actively providing advice, is to use a high protein, low carb kibble. :nod:

 

[auntie crazy]

There is absolutely an effect on both digestion efficacy and time when non-species appropriate ingredients are eaten. The best description of this I've found is in the National Research Council's "Nutrient Requirements for Dogs and Cats." The topic covers 13 pages, however, with another 4 and a half pages of citations, so quoting the data isn't really an option.

We can agree to disagree, certainly, but there definitely are studies illustrating the negative impact both kibble and carbs have on feline digestive processes.

Whether this impact is great enough to warrant not feeding these products together is, I think, a personal choice for cat owners.

AC

 

[mschauer]

Regardless of how severely the comment is worded to not mix the two, it is made frequently. Just look at the second sentence of the first post in this thread:

 but everything I have ever read about raw feeding says do NOT mix kibble with raw.

 

[nerdrock]

I totally agree NV is not good for any cat. Being raw does not matter if its ingredients include chicken fat, chicken flavor, clay, honey, flaxseed oil, sun-cured alfalfa meal, apple cider, apples, pumpkin seeds, broccoli, butternut squash, carrots, alfalfa sprouts, cranberries, blueberries, kelp, ground flaxseeds, sage, parsley, rosemary, clove, vinegar, olive oil, lettuce, and persimmons. That is 20 useless ingredients including two sources of 4-D animals, nonliving material, and something that does more harm than good for cats. Not only that, there are nutritional supplements, which means they don't use the whole prey animals, just add meat without cooking it. I think this is junk food and should not be recommended. Maybe short-term as a transition food it is OK, but definitely not after your cat stops wanting kibbles.

Not sure where you're getting the information that they use 4D animals, but they don't. All animals come from farms that specifically produce for the company. The animals used in the food are fed species appropriate diets that are not genetically modified, and the animals are antibiotic and hormone free. 

Montmorillonite clay is found in quite a few pet foods, sometimes labelled as something different, and is consumed by many animals in the wild. It contains a ton of trace minerals and absorbs toxins from the body. Chicken flavour is a chicken broth powder, used for flavour. Fat is needed in a diet. Honey is a great antibacterial, antifungal and antiviral, I've always given it to my dogs and my cats seem to like it too (they usually lick the spoons after we give it to the dogs), it also contains quite a few minerals. The vinegar is apple cider vinegar and is in there for pretty much the same reason as the honey, it's actually really good for pets. Again, it's something that we've always put in our pets drinking water. I'm not going to sit here and type out the reasons that all of those things are in the food, if you just go to their website and click on their ingredients glossary, they tell you exactly what each ingredient provides. If you still have questions about the food, or would like to dispute something with them, then email them and get your facts straight before saying things such as "4-D animals". 

 

[emilymaywilcha]

Nedrock: I recently read three books published in the last two years about the dangers of commercial pet foods. One of them, Buyer Beware by Susan Thixton, owner of the website TruthAboutPetFood.com, describes the whole rendering process, and explains which ingredients are likely to come from 4-D animals. Two of them are natural flavor and animal fat. Animal fat comes from the rendering process. Where do you get your information all of that is not true?

 

[nerdrock]

Again, if you went to their website and looked at the ingredients glossary you would see that the natural flavour is from yeast fermentation, not 4D animals.

The chicken fat is from the rendering process, but not from 4D animals.

The information I'm getting is from my own research, communication with the company prior to being employed by them, information provided by a good friend who has actually been to their facility and my training information.

There are no 4D animals in any of Nature's Variety's formulas.

 

[emilymaywilcha]

The chicken fat is from the rendering process, but not from 4D animals.

The rendering industry exists for 4D animals. What other animals would be rendered?

 

[ldg]

Nedrock: I recently read three books published in the last two years about the dangers of commercial pet foods. One of them, Buyer Beware by Susan Thixton, owner of the website TruthAboutPetFood.com, describes the whole rendering process, and explains which ingredients are likely to come from 4-D animals. Two of them are natural flavor and animal fat. Animal fat comes from the rendering process. Where do you get your information all of that is not true?

OK, but what that information says is that those are POTENTIAL sources of 4D animals. Of course, manufacturers of pet food can choose to source more carefully!

Nature's Variety, in fact, has the reputation of being a company focused on the quality of its pet foods. It is one of the larger privately owned pet food companies, and is sensitive to sourcing beyond just the quality of the meat, but in supporting local farmers, the carbon footprint of the process, etc. Sometimes you need to dig a little deeper, and learn about the company. Nestle-Purina, Mars, Del Monte, Colgate-Palmolive... fine. They're huge, multinational companies just in it for the profit.

But when it comes to the smaller independents, it behooves you to learn a bit about them, rather than just making assumptions.

In fact, it's their very reputation, I think, that caused otto to have an issue with the new food.

Again, just because something is rendered doesn't mean it's evil, bad, or unhealthy by definition. Rendering is simply a manufacturing process. What goes into it is what matters.

 

[whollycat]

I apparently misunderstood your question. I thought what you were asking what the sugars have to do with it. I was pretty sure you knew carbs broke down into starch and sugar, but addressed it anyway.

The quote was simply one example addressing the point of digestion time ( "a slow metabolism of fructose"), that's the context for inclusion as re: this discussion.

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy  

... kibble and carbs have on feline digestive processes.

Whether this impact is great enough to warrant not feeding these products together is, I think, a personal choice for cat owners.

AC

And I'll add my 2-cents here.

Note that this is in regards to carbs in kitties diet, so may be slightly off topic until the end...

Fructokinase is the enzyme responsible for converting both sucrose and fructose, which is completely absent in cats. These sugars will be deposited as fat and stored in the kitty's body, promoting the possibility of developing diabetes, obesity, and/or hepatic lipidosis.

Salivary amylase is absent in cats, and they have greatly reduced levels of intestinal and pancreatic amylases, so carbohydrate digestion is much less efficient.

The small intestine of cats is much shorter than that of an equally sized omnivore--longer GI tracts are necessary for handling of complex carbohydrates.

Cats have significantly reduced activities of hepatic enzymes (e.g., glucokinase) designed to convert a post-prandial glucose load to glycogen and therefore are less able to handle this glucose load.

I could add more to the above, but I think I've made my point. Simply put: Carbohydrates have no business in foods for cats. The only exception would be if they are prone to constipation, then a fiber source would be appropriate in small quantities.

As far as feeding the food that OP posted, I purrsonally would take a pass. Way, way too many carbs and includes derivatives of alfalfa and other ingredients I take issue with. JMO==> Kibble has a higher level of bacterial contaminants that can be exacerbated/activated by storing methods, adding water/moisture, etc., so mixing with raw (which can also contain bacteria from grinding, etc. [Note: I feed a home prepared, ground raw diet]), is not a good idea. BUT, if using kibble to transition to raw or canned, my thinking is that it should be discarded when the kitty is finished eating to minimize potential risk.

Hope all this rambling made sense. Kept getting interrupted by a particularly insistent (persistent?) kitty!

 

[ldg]

Thanks for that Jules.

mschauer got me on the hunt. :lol3:

Apart from carbs having no place in a cat's diet, and specifically addressing the problem of combining carbs and raw animal proteins, all the research/articles, etc. I've read in the process of learning about raw indicates they shouldn't be fed together. But when pinpointing the science of it - well - that's a different matter. :lol3:

Because it is a complex subject, it seems it breaks down into several components:

The carbs raise the pH of the stomach and that inhibits immune-system function of the stomach's role in killing certain harmful bacteria (http://www.mountaindogfood.com/HealthCare/Salmonella.htm);

.....(sidebar: this would also explain why dogs and cats so often get sick from salmonella contaminated kibble, but why there are so few incidents of animals fed raw that get sick from salmonella...)

The elevated pH from carb consumption also impacts the ability to properly digest the animal protein (denatures the pepsins with increased pH, slowing protein digestion);

In fact, the elevated pH impacts the entire process of digestion through their whole system (again, carbs have no place in a cats diet!), but

..the lack of efficient processing of carbs slows down digestion transit through the small intestine, which in turn causes changes in the structure of the gut flora, which impacts the overall immune system function.

The FNES article does a good job of summarizing the issues in more detail than that. But I'm not seeing the import of the connection between the statements made in the article and the references used.

 

[ldg]

Oh - and the only thing I can even find CLOSE to "definitive" as a reference to digestion times for kibble (vs canned) is at VetInfo, and it's as re: dogs: http://www.vetinfo.com/dog-digestion-time.html

 

[wilson]

When one of my cats used to eat kibble about 6 yrs ago sometimes she used to throw it up.  This was thrown up hours later, and guess what the kibble was still in whole pieces, just soggy. So this tells me that it digests very slowly.  Take a cup of water, put some kibble in it and see how long it takes to break down in just water.  Even with the cats stomach acids the kibble didnt break down, yikes!!

Also I have a question about the NV, why do they source their Rabbit from china? and yes they do, it may look like its from the states, but its actually from china.

We have tons too many rabbits in the city we live in, they can have ours instead ( Canada).   I mean they are killing alot of them anyhow.

 

[Willowy]

Apparently not enough people in the U.S. eat rabbit for it to be profitable for farmers to raise them commercially. And yes, the pet food companies would have to use domestic rabbit--I don't think wild game is allowed, and availability would be inconsistent even if it were. Using small-time farmers also creates availability issues. . .although that happened with their China-sourced rabbit anyway.