My Cat & Neighbors Cat, Making Freinds Or Fighting?

[Dacatchair]

I have a 7.5 month old kitten who is a neutered male and he has has spent a lot of time outside in my rural partially wild yard since he was about 4 months old. I also spend a lot of time outside doing chores and my work so I usually know where he is even though I can't always see what he is up to in the bushes. My neighbor has a cat who is also a neutered male who is about 5 or 6 years old.

My neighbors cat was injured a couple times by an aggressive cat that is no longer in the neighborhood, but as far as I have seen he doesn't seem to be particularly aggressive himself. And my cat seems to really miss having another cat to play with. This is a reasonably low risk area for cats, no predators or feral cats and the norm is that cats are allowed outside and, in the decades I have lived here, the worst I have heard happening is injuries from fighting with another cat that need vet attention. But of course I would like to avoid anything like this!

The first time my kitten ran into my neighbors cat I was working nearby. My neighbors cat is not around much in the summer and spends most of his time off hunting rats and rabbits, but he was on his way home through my yard and both cats surprised each other. They both puffed up, arched their backs and made a lot of prolonged low pitched growling yowls. I called my neighbors cat by name and talked to him nice but also firmly saying to cool it. And crawling through the bushes I managed to grab my kitten and brought him in the house so they could both cool down.

A couple days later my neighbors cat came over very close to my house, apparently looking to meet my kitten again. Again they both puffed up and there was arched backs and yowling, and when I came out my neighbors cat ran off about 50 feet and then sat down backed by some bushes to watch. So I went out and played with my kitten about 30 feet from the other cat, and called my neighbors cat by name and spoke to him soothingly. They both seemed calm and at one point my kitten approached to within 15 feet, ears forward and there was no more threatening sounds or body language. After watching us for about 20 minutes my neighbors cat left and except for 1 incident he rarely was seen the rest of the summer.

About a month after that I was working near the property line and my kitten now about 5 months went over onto my neighbors property. My neighbors cat came down from his house and there was some threatening mrrrouuuwwwws, a quick tackle and a higher pitched screamy mrrewwwouu from my kitten and my neighbors cat chase him back on to my property and they turned around and went home.

But the past couple weeks something else has been happening which I only hear and do not see and I am not sure what is going on. As the weather gets cooler my neighbors cat is spending more time at home and also in my yard. There is no more threatening low pitched drawn out mrrooowss. But suddenly my young cat kitten will do his high pitched mrrewoou like he was unexpectedly attacked. It has lasted as long as it takes to say "I really love pizza" A couple minutes my cat comes calmly walking back and he is not puffed up or injured. And then I see my neighbors cat leaving and he is not puffed up but looks kind of haughty.

I was wondering what was going on, and what led up to what I was hearing, and the other day I may have got a clue. I was outside and my cat was gently leaping at my leg and trying to tackle it with claws retracted. I tried to play with him with a toy but he led me to a spot in the yard where my neighbors cat was curled up and had been sleeping in the grass. My neighbors cat stayed curled up relaxed but raised his head and stared at us with narrow eyes. My young cat approach to within 4 feet, leaning forward, ears forward and then stood stock still with only the tip of his tail twitching like he was about to pounce. Neither of them looked at all tense or puffed up, but my neighbors cat gave no indication he wanted to be pounced on and I encouraged my kitten to give up trying to play with him and after a couple minutes my kitten turned around and came back to me.

Later the same day there was the quick short screamy mreeoouw from my kitten, and that night 2 second, short threatened mrreow came from under my bed which is outside on the porch. I thought it was my catlette and something scared him, but when I got up with my flashlight my neighbors cat ran out from under my bed and my cat emerged from the same place after he ran off.

Then yesterday I heard a longer high pitched screamy mreeooouw. This time it lasted as long as it would take me to say " I really love pizza, but not with shrimp, I really really hate shrimp." I ran out and my kitten walked towards me and my neighbors cat ducked off into the bushes. This time my cat looked a bit upset and I noticed his fur was mussed and wet at the base of his ear, but it doesn't look like the skin was broken. And then my cat spent the rest of the day and night glued to me and did not go outside at all.

From what I have seen, I am guessing my kitten is lonely and wants to play. He is a very social kitten and needs to wrestle with stuffed toys I pretend are small animals the same size as he is. So I am thinking he is approaching my grumpy older neighbors cat and trying to play and getting a rougher more hostile response than he is expecting. The neighbors cat is considerably bigger and the fact he is not actually injuring my cat seems to suggest he is just setting some boundaries. But my neighbors cat being under my bed with my kitten seems either friendly or getting more aggressive.

And just now as I type this, my cat came in after venturing out for the first time since yesterday and looked at me meaningfully, then turned and stared at the door. I felt like he was letting me know something upsetting was out there so I picked him up and there at the bottom of my front steps was my neighbors cat staring up. He ran off and then my cat proceeded to stare where he had gone and lead me to a spot with bit of his underfur in the grass, which he sniffed a long time and also looked at me as if to say "Look what he did to me!"

Any ideas what is going on here and beside keeping my kitten in, what I can do to promote neighborhood peace? Recently a friend had a new cat comes into a household and there was some fur flying at first but then stuff got sorted out and the cats became buddies. My cat & neighbor cat have had a while to get used to each other. Will they probably work it out and learn to co-exist or is this starting to escalate into a power struggle? With me outside so much and my cat be highly social, keeping him in would be next to impossible...

 

[Mamanyt1953]

It sounds pretty much as if they are just establishing a pecking order, and that can take time. It can also be very, VERY vocal (sometimes a cat's gotta say what a cat's gotta say), and your cat being the younger is probably not coming out on top right now while they figure it all out. If the worst that has happened is a tiny bit of fluff missing with no blood, I'm thinking that these guys will figure this out on their own. I've seen "real" catfights, and there is ALWAYS a LOT of fur flying, and blood is ALWAYS involved. I think that you are right in that your kitten wants to play, and the older cat really doesn't, and is telling him so in no uncertain terms. SIGH...I wish that were different. Have you considered a second kitten, about the age of your current one? They could keep each other company (says the mama of an only who would NEVER want another cat in the house...I would, Hekitty emphatically would not).

These things almost always sound far worse than they actually are. So long as the neighbor's cat isn't injuring your kitten, you're in fairly good shape. Nerves not withstanding, that is.

 

[arouetta]

Mamanyt1953 is right, a real cat fight is super loud, I mean screaming, fur flying and really quick. Not as in duration, but the movements are practically a blur. If there's no fur and they are somewhat slow in their attacks, more like a dance, then it's more of a statement than a fight.

That high pitch might be a warning to the other cat. I have seen where one cat screamed to tell the other cat to go away, the second cat usually running away at top speed away.

 

[Dacatchair]

Thanks so much for the replies and for translating things from cat to human!

Definitely no blood, and just a few small pinches of my cats undercoat! There was a pinhead sized bit of skin attached to one of the puffs so the removal probably hurt and today my kitten avoided going into his favorite patch of bushes beside the pond which I call his office, as he is always goes there in the morning. Instead he stared at them a lot making me think my neighbors cat was in there, and then he settled in a spot he also likes in the grass beside the pond, giving the older cat a wide berth. And the older cat did not try to push him out of that spot even though there was no more than 20 feet between them. So hopefully they will now sort it out peacefully.

I was assuming the quick high pitch scream was my catlette, but it may have been the older cat warning mine away? It usually is very quick, but I have yet to see the interaction. That my kitten has never been injured make it seem my neighbors cat is as gentle as he can be but he still wants to get his point across.

My kitten is the only cat I have ever had that recognizes other cats on youtube. looks excited and reaches out his paw to touch them. He has tried to play with the deer, get adopted by the raccoons who ignore him, and he wants to play with me in ways I just can't. I would love to get my kitten a buddy but out of respect for the eco-system here I really can't justify 2 outdoor cats. With just one it seems there is a balance as I need rat control and cats are the only thing that works. The rats here eat whole nests of baby birds and even have gone into my roof and the winter night roost of house wrens, where mayhem ensued. So even though my cat catches the occasional bird, the rats he kills probably more than make up for this in saved bird lives. But I am concerned 2 outdoor cats would just cause too much collateral damage. And be more at risk for territorial disputes with other cats.

So unless I decide it is seriously no longer working for him to be allowed outside, and get him a buddy to try and make his loss of freedom more tolerable, he will probably have to be an only cat...

 

[Mamanyt1953]

Yeah, the amount of birds that cats take are negligible compared with the amount of rats and mice that they eradicate. I'm hoping to use that argument to get our town's horrible "catch and destroy" policy on ferals changed to TNR with managed colonies.

He'll be fine as an only, and once he's a bit older, he and the neighbor cat may learn to deal with each other very nicely. At this point it's rather like asking a 40 year old to be best buds with a 15 year old.

 

[Shane Kent]

Yeah, the amount of birds that cats take are negligible compared with the amount of rats and mice that they eradicate. I'm hoping to use that argument to get our town's horrible "catch and destroy" policy on ferals changed to TNR with managed colonies.

He'll be fine as an only, and once he's a bit older, he and the neighbor cat may learn to deal with each other very nicely. At this point it's rather like asking a 40 year old to be best buds with a 15 year old.

Kitty and Rusty cleared the building I work at of mice and moles. In addition to that I took them to the cottage and they cleared it as well. There is at least one cat that lives inside the Canadian Tire in Perth, Ontario, Canada and I would guess they have it in there for pest control. I wish more businesses would employ cats. I have taken Kitty and Rusty home, if the problem at work returns and they want a cat to clear it up I will get a rescued cat that will live here permanently.

I hope you are extremely successful in taking down the "catch and destroy".

 

[Mamanyt1953]

I'm trying to gather as much information as possible to put before the town council. We are tiny, and SURROUNDED by pine woods, so there are a LOT of rats and mice. 'Nuff said, I don't want to hijack the thread!

 

[Dacatchair]

There is some stuff that can be done to direct cats toward the target species (rats) and away from birds. I have never had a cat that managed to catch uninjured birds before, but notice the pond is a lure for all sorts of wildlife and the birds can be more vulnerable in that area. Putting out a realistic stuffed tiger and moving it a couple times a day seems to help give the birds a heads up to take a second look, and in the winter I will be cutting back vegetation around the water so there is less places for a cat to lurk. My cat mostly catches rodents, but he has caught a few birds and I would like to discourage this as much as possible.

Picture of my cat sitting with his buddy who creeps out the birds...

 

[arouetta]

Did I miss something? What's the big deal about a cat catching a bird?

 

[Dacatchair]

I would rather my cat didn't catch anything that I don't prefer to see dead! In my rural area there is not that many cats and 95% of the land is unaltered with 100-200 foot high trees, so cats catching a few birds or other creatures isn't likely to have a big impact. But some areas may have more vulnerable populations of birds or other creatures, especially if there is a lot of cats. We have a real bad rat problem on the island I live on. The ocean at low tide provides a constant food source. I was just talking to a local sheep farmer who told me last winter he went deep into the bush here to see if there was any cougar tracks in the snow, as occasionally a cougar swims over, and even miles away from people, the main animal tracks he was seeing in the snow were rat tracks. So in this area I think cats are beneficial, but each area is different and the benefits and costs need to be carefully considered...

 

[susieqz]

birds are very nice, unless they eat my figs, but rats n mice are disgusting.

the hunta virus has been reported in my area, so even mice can kill me.
i'll sacrifice as many birds as need be to control rodents

 

[arouetta]

I don't think that house cats have hunted any bird into extinction, which is a lot better than what we can say about ourselves. Even in an area that has a lot of cats, the prey animals simply get smarter and reproduce faster, so there is no risk of killing off all the finches and robins. I've heard the old "cats are too efficient, they'll cause finches to go extinct" bit, but it is propaganda by people who hate cats.

There's some island in the north, I think Great Lakes area, that has been an excellent source for studying the effects of predation. Somehow a bunch of elk got on an island and the wolves showed up shortly after, and neither side has killed off the other. Closest it came was when parvo or distemper somehow made it onto the island. Some years there's a lot of wolves and little elk, some years there's a lot of elk and not that many wolves, but it is a balancing act. The wolves simply can't hunt the elk into extinction. Same thing with cats, the cats are not going to kill off a bird species, if one disappears it'll be on us, not our four footed companions.

But back to the neighbor cat, if he was going to seriously go after your kitten, it would have already happened. Kittens are dumb and don't know to not use claws and teeth, and they learn when a littermate or mom or any other resident cat gets tired of being a pin cushion and bats them around. After it happens enough, the kitten learns to be gentler and less obnoxious. I think that's pretty much where you are at, your kitten is learning that the older cat is not his personal playground, and the older cat is simply getting his point across instead of reacting like the kitten is a territory threat.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

But back to the neighbor cat, if he was going to seriously go after your kitten, it would have already happened. Kittens are dumb and don't know to not use claws and teeth, and they learn when a littermate or mom or any other resident cat gets tired of being a pin cushion and bats them around. After it happens enough, the kitten learns to be gentler and less obnoxious. I think that's pretty much where you are at, your kitten is learning that the older cat is not his personal playground, and the older cat is simply getting his point across instead of reacting like the kitten is a territory threat.

That was pretty much my read on it, as well.

arouetta , this article refers to feral cats, not house cats, but I thought you would find the quote interesting. Pound for pound, cats are apex predators.
" A global analysis published this week in the Proceedings of the National Academies of Sciences finds that feral cats have helped drive at least 63 species of birds, mammals, and reptiles into the dirt over the past 500 years. The only group of invasive predators that’s done more harm is rodents, which are linked to 75 species extinctions."

Of course, in areas where mice, rats and other small rodents proliferate, this is not a bad thing, as they are even more destructive.

That said, maybe there should be a thread on cats and hunting, pros and cons. I'd hate to hijack this one!