More cats... what are they? Manx?

[nightshift]

Hi! I know I posted a different thread before (like, last night... LOL. sorry if there's a rule against posting new threads frequently! I didn't see one :0), but since everyone was so helpful I wanted to see if people would be able to pinpoint the mystery of two of our other 2 cats: Kano and Pretty-Girl. They were former strays that have adapted a lot to living in our house (we got them around ~4 years ago). Similar to Chip (who I posted last night), there are no strays in this neighborhood except for the 1 or 2 that show up every few years that we end up taking in, LOL. We believe they were thrown out of the apartments that they would sit in the large parking lot of every day. They were both kittens when we found them, but they've very much grown up since!

The mystery here is... They have no tail, and they look nothing alike! We have no idea how they found each other considering they look SO different in every way... except for the fact they both lack full tails. The brown one, Kano, has a little bob, and the gray one, Pretty-Girl, has absolutely nothing at all. Do you guys know what they might resemble? My guess is that Pretty-Girl might be part Manx, but Kano stumps me as he's very lean and very large!

 

[tarasgirl06]

Hi! I know I posted a different thread before (like, last night... LOL. sorry if there's a rule against posting new threads frequently! I didn't see one :0), but since everyone was so helpful I wanted to see if people would be able to pinpoint the mystery of two of our other 2 cats: Kano and Pretty-Girl. They were former strays that have adapted a lot to living in our house (we got them around ~4 years ago). Similar to Chip (who I posted last night), there are no strays in this neighborhood except for the 1 or 2 that show up every few years that we end up taking in, LOL. We believe they were thrown out of the apartments that they would sit in the large parking lot of every day. They were both kittens when we found them, but they've very much grown up since!

The mystery here is... They have no tail, and they look nothing alike! We have no idea how they found each other considering they look SO different in every way... except for the fact they both lack full tails. The brown one, Kano, has a little bob, and the gray one, Pretty-Girl, has absolutely nothing at all. Do you guys know what they might resemble? My guess is that Pretty-Girl might be part Manx, but Kano stumps me as he's very lean and very large!

Manx cats are not all tailless. Manx cat - Wikipedia And they come in all coat colors, patterns, and fur lengths.

 

[Maurey]

Their tails could easily be due a mutation they inhereted from one of their parents. There have been a several cases of bobtailed cats emerging and overtaking as the local landrace of cats, including the Kurilian and Karelian bobtails.

Are they related? Also, there's no guarantee they were born that way -- tail injuries happen in cats, which may cause need for amputation. I believe your boy is fairly likely to have been born with his tail, given that it looks kinked, but with a tailless kitty, its hard to say, since you can't really see if she has any scarring.

 

[nightshift]

Manx cats are not all tailless. Manx cat - Wikipedia And they come in all coat colors, patterns, and fur lengths.

Oooh, that's interesting!! I didn't know :0 I knew about the fact they could come in all colors/patterns/fur lengths, but I didn't know they weren't all tailless

 

[nightshift]

Their tails could easily be due a mutation they inhereted from one of their parents. There have been a several cases of bobtailed cats emerging and overtaking as the local landrace of cats, including the Kurilian and Karelian bobtails.

Are they related? Also, there's no guarantee they were born that way -- tail injuries happen in cats, which may cause need for amputation. I believe your boy is fairly likely to have been born with his tail, given that it looks kinked, but with a tailless kitty, its hard to say, since you can't really see if she has any scarring.

I was thinking it was a mutation of sorts, yes! I don't believe they're related at all due to their completely different size, bone structure, fur texture, coat color, pattern, etc. The only similarity is the fact they don't have full tails.
I was considering that he might've lost part of it, but considering the chance of 2 (mostly) tailless cats being found together, I assumed they had some relation until they grew up very different! It is definitely kinked as the end curls under, it's just hard to see without feeling it. However, I do believe the gray one, Pretty-Girl, was most likely was born without any tail at all

 

[tarasgirl06]

Rumpies and stumpies! and the Japanese Bobtail is a traditional breed known for its short, kinked tail. The more kinks, the better.

 

[Willowy]

The bobtail gene is fairly common in the general cat population. It's quite a coincidence that you ended up with 2 of them, but maybe there was a bobtailed tom who really got around town .

 

[Maurey]

The bobtail gene is fairly common in the general cat population. It's quite a coincidence that you ended up with 2 of them, but maybe there was a bobtailed tom who really got around town .

Is that in the US landrace of cats? I only ask because I used to volunteer at a cat shelter in the UK (plus I’d see a lot of strays around locally), and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a bobtail kitty without a pedigree over there. It’s definitely interesting that in some populations, the bobtail mutation naturally takes over — does make me curious is it’s somehow advantageous to cats in certain populations.

 

[lutece]

Bobtail mutations in cats appear all over the world, and there are many bobtail mutations known. These mutations may pop up frequently, and I've personally seen a bobtail mutation arise spontaneously in a non bobtailed breed. I don't think it's advantageous, but it's not particularly harmful either, so there's nothing restricting its spread through a population. These mutations are typically dominant, so they can spread around easily.

There is a breed called "American Bobtail" but I wouldn't call this a landrace. It's a developed breed that was created from bobtailed cats.

 

[tarasgirl06]

There is a severe health issue, though, in some Manx cats, Spina Bifida, a malformation of the spine, which can cause pain and in serious cases, a risk to the life of the cat.

 

[lutece]

There is a severe health issue, though, in some Manx cats, Spina Bifida, a malformation of the spine, which can cause pain and in serious cases, a risk to the life of the cat.

Yes, the Manx breed's short-tailed phenotype is due to mutations in the T-box gene. These mutations are lethal when homozygous, and can cause a wide spectrum of abnormalities when heterozygous.

However, many other bobtailed cats have mutations in a different gene, HES7. Mutations in HES7 have been found in Japanese Bobtails and other Asian bobtailed cats. These mutations don't appear to have the same likelihood of creating problems as the Manx mutations in the T-box gene, even when homozygous. I've been told that the Kurilian Bobtail also doesn't have problems associated with its bobtailed phenotype, and is thought to have a similar mutation to the Japanese Bobtail.

Some American Bobtail and Pixie-Bob cats have been found to have mutations in T-box, which may indicate that Manx (or domestic cats with Manx ancestry) were used in the early development of these breeds. Many other American Bobtails have a short tailed phenotype but do not have the Manx mutation, possibly indicating a mutation originating in domestic cats in the US. Researchers are still trying to find these additional mutations.

The Toybob is another breed with a short tailed phenotype. I'm not aware of any associated abnormalities in this breed. The mutation(s) involved in the Toybob are still unknown.

Here are a couple of references

Multiple mutant T alleles cause haploinsufficiency of Brachyury and short tails in Manx cats

Most mammals possess a tail, humans and the Great Apes being notable exceptions. One approach to understanding the mechanisms and evolutionary forces influencing development of a tail is to identify the genetic factors that influence extreme tail length ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Whole Genome Sequencing Identifies a Missense Mutation in HES7 Associated with Short Tails in Asian Domestic Cats

Domestic cats exhibit abundant variations in tail morphology and serve as an excellent model to study the development and evolution of vertebrate tails. Cats with shortened and kinked tails were first recorded in the Malayan archipelago by Charles Darwin ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Maurey]

I've been told that the Kurilian Bobtail also doesn't have problems associated with its bobtailed phenotype, and is thought to have a similar mutation to the Japanese Bobtail.

Kurilian and Karelian bobtails (they’re different breeds, though the Karelian is extremely rare, and recognised only by the WCF) were developed from the local landrace of cats from the Kuril Islands and Karelian Republic, respectively. I doubt the bobtail gene would have dominated as much as it did if there were significant issues associated with the mutation.

I don’t think much is known about the Karelian bobtail mutation, other than the fact that, extremely unusually, it is recessive.

T mutations aren’t involved in the Kurilian’s short tails, as far as is currently known, so perhaps they also have a HES7 mutation, who knows. I don’t believe any more about their tail is currently known, though a new mutation in MCR1 gene was discovered in the breed fairly recently, and the new colour has been termed Carnelian. A New Mutation in the MC1R Gene Leads to Unique Carnelian Color in Kurilian Bobtails Messybeast also has an article on the topic CARNELIAN (COPAL, SERDOLIK) KURILIAN BOBTAIL CATS

 

[lutece]

Well, I was told by a Kurilian bobtail breeder that it's thought to be an HES7 mutation involved in that breed, but I don't know of any published papers to that effect. It's possible these cats are testing positive for the Japanese Bobtail mutation, I just don't know the details.

Leslie Lyons said a few years ago that the breeds that are really up in the air right now are the Toybob, and those American Bobtails that don't have the T-box mutation, as these have a short tailed phenotype but have not been found to have either T-box or HES7 mutations.

 

[nightshift]

Bobtail mutations in cats appear all over the world, and there are many bobtail mutations known. These mutations may pop up frequently, and I've personally seen a bobtail mutation arise spontaneously in a non bobtailed breed. I don't think it's advantageous, but it's not particularly harmful either, so there's nothing restricting its spread through a population. These mutations are typically dominant, so they can spread around easily.

There is a breed called "American Bobtail" but I wouldn't call this a landrace. It's a developed breed that was created from bobtailed cats.

That's interesting! I really had no idea they were common as I haven't actually seen one before other than these 2 (I have online, of course, just not in real life). I've definitely heard about the American Bobtail before! :0

 

[nightshift]

The bobtail gene is fairly common in the general cat population. It's quite a coincidence that you ended up with 2 of them, but maybe there was a bobtailed tom who really got around town .

Someone else said similar, which surprised me! I've never actually seen one irl before other than these 2! I will say, though, I'm pretty sure I saw the mother of the brown cat (Kano) walking around after we took him in. She was visually very similar except she had a tail

 

[nightshift]

Rumpies and stumpies! and the Japanese Bobtail is a traditional breed known for its short, kinked tail. The more kinks, the better.

I was leaning towards Japanese Bobtail for Kano, but I haven't been able to find any that look like him online Honestly, I can't find any bobtail cats that really look like him! They all look so small and squishy... LOL. He's really big and very lean with pretty long legs! He looks a little round in the photos but that's because he has some extra weight right now ) Pretty-Girl is super tiny and round though, so she has the opposite problem where most of the bobtails I've seen resemble her :0 I'm probably just not looking at the details enough, LOL

 

[lutece]

I was leaning towards Japanese Bobtail for Kano, but I haven't been able to find any that look like him online Honestly, I can't find any bobtail cats that really look like him! They all look so small and squishy... LOL. He's really big and very lean with pretty long legs! He looks a little round in the photos but that's because he has some extra weight right now ) Pretty-Girl is super tiny and round though, so she has the opposite problem where most of the bobtails I've seen resemble her :0 I'm probably just not looking at the details enough, LOL

It's unlikely that your cats would belong to any specific pedigreed breed. Most cats aren't any breed, and are also not "mixes" of breeds, unlike dogs.

Assuming that your cats' bobtailed phenotype is due to genetics (rather than injury), they might have mutations that are not found in any specific breed at this time, or they might have an ancestor from some specific breed. Since almost all bobtail mutations are dominant, it would be sufficient to have a single ancestor, and it could be any number of generations distant from your cats. Even if your cat had a Japanese Bobtail ancestor (for example), if the ancestor is very distant, you wouldn't necessarily expect to see any other Japanese Bobtail breed features.

 

[lutece]

Remember that not all short-tailed cats have a genetic cause for their appearance... for example, this is a cat I had a long time ago whose tail was partly chewed off by his mother at birth (perhaps because she thought it was the umbilical cord).

 

[Maurey]

Remember that not all short-tailed cats have a genetic cause for their appearance... for example, this is a cat I had a long time ago whose tail was partly chewed off by his mother at birth (perhaps because she thought it was the umbilical cord).

View attachment 377460

What a gorgeous boy! Out of curiosity, was he able to be shown with his tail?

 

[lutece]

What a gorgeous boy! Out of curiosity, was he able to be shown with his tail?

Not in the class for pedigreed cats. He could have been shown in the Household Pet class, but he would have had to be neutered... so he wasn't shown. He made some beautiful babies instead.