Mixing prescription and Non-prescription food?

[daisy707]

Hi all, 

So if you know my kitty's history (see my previous posts) you would know that he developed his first bout of struvite crystals. He is all good now but the vet has him on the Hills Prescription c/d dry food (because that is what he is used to) but I have incorporated in fancy feast classics into his diet because I know it's important for him to get water. (He does fancy feast in the am and pm, then kibble just to nibble on during the day).

Now, when we went to our follow up visit with our vet I told her about him being on the fancy feast, and she said to try the prescription c/d wet because it would be better for him since he does have a crystal issue. Well, we tried the wet c/d and he just will NOT eat it. I have tried mixing with fancy feast, putting kibble on top (whole and crushed) and nothing has worked. And, at the price of each can, I don't want to keep trying it just to end up throwing it out. 

So my question is: I know the vet said that the c/d wet would be better, but will fancy feast hurt him (cause crystals) if he is still eating the c/d dry?  I am adding in water to his wet, and he has plenty of water around the house too, and he has been peeing A LOT, back to his normal healthy amount each day which is good!!!

I know about the raw feeding, all wet diet, and have read the catinfo site, but these suggestions aren't answering my question really. (At least there is SO much info my head is just spinning at this point) 

 I just want to make sure that feeding him the fancy feast classic (since he is eating it) won't cause the crystals to still form. Water of course helps to flush him out, but if the crystals are there, its going to be harmful and painful for him regardless of how much water he gets. The c/d food says it PREVENTS the crystals (both struvite and oxalate or whatever). or does water actually prevent them too? If so, how? argh. 

So much worrying and research I've done. 

 But I have made the effort to only rant my frustration on here! lol I don't want my kitty knowing how upset I really am so he doesn't get stressed!

But just wanted to see if anyone else has combined prescription and non, with success. I just want to make sure I'm not chancing the crystals coming back. 

Daisy

 

[cprcheetah]

The premise of the c/d is it has added salt to get your cat to drink more water.  I have a cat who has chronic issues with crystals and he does not eat prescription diets, I feed him the canned food a lot of times its the fancy feast.  http://catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth   He has not had issues with his bladder since I put him on an all canned food diet.  I do try to give him grain free when I can afford it but with 4 kitties on an all canned food diet it becomes difficult.  As long as you are increasing moisture in his diet by adding additional water to the canned food and maybe getting him a fountain to encourage more drinking you should be fine.  I also added Cosequin to my kitties diet because it helps his joints as well as helps inflammation in the bladder.

 

[ldg]

Actually, that's not quite correct about the c/d. Dry or wet, the main "design" of the food is to target a neutral urine pH. This has been found to be the most important factor in development of struvite crystals (a slightly acidic urine pH).

If you are including a wet food that is low carb, like Fancy Feast classics, (no fish flavors), this should not be a problem.

Meat is naturally acidifying. Carbs are alkalinizing. So canned foods without grains, starches, and veggies are good and shouldn't be a problem. Even better if you add some water to them at each meal, as the extra water helps keep the bladder flushed out. I'll post the research tomorrow if you want it for your vet.

 

[cprcheetah]

I got them mixed up it is Royal Canin & Purinas urinary formulas that have the added salt to the diet.

 

[pushylady]

My vet told us what LDG said: the c/d is designed to decrease the PH of the urine (acidic urine is what you want). He said that you should stick with just the c/d dry and/or wet because mixing different foods may prevent the c/d from doing its job.

So we used c/d for years although I was never really happy with the ingredients and the cost.
After doing research on here I decided we didn't really need to stick with a prescription diet per se, just as long as he got: wet, added water, grain free, and very little seafood.
Bear in mind that at this point Pushy hadn't had a recurrence of crystals for a while. So we phased out the c/d and replaced with a rotation of various grain free canned foods. We are fortunate that Pushy is not at all fussy.

My advice to you would be to phase out the dry food altogether and keep feeding him the Fancy Feast that he will eat (no seafood) with additional water mixed in. Maybe try and introduce some quality canned foods for variety, but if he's fussy and this is likely to stress him, then don't bother.

 

[ldg]

It's always a good idea to stabilize on the c/d, and then switch to an all wet diet, one that is high animal-based protein (because meat is acidifying) / low carb, with added water to keep the bladder flushed.

 

[maewkaew]

 I had a similar issue,  my cat had  a blockage,  was put on the c/d.  but would not eat the canned c/d.  The vet said to feed just the dry c/d.   He did stop having crystals  most of the time  but  unfortunately he started putting on weight.   At his yearly check ups,  I kept mentioning my concern about his weight.   Not that he was grossly obese,  and  it didn't show on him like it might have on a cat who was not so long bodied,   but he was definitely getting chubby,  then more than chubby.    The vet actually said that was a common "side effect" .  but he didn't have other suggestions except to decrease the amount more and more,  to the point that he was never satisfied.    and even with cutting him way down ( I can't remember now but it was under 1/2 cup per day,  for a very large framed cat.) he STILL gained weight!  

Unfortunately, after about 5 years on that diet he got diabetes.   I am not saying that was the sole cause ,  but I am sure the very high carbohydrate level , far higher than a cat's pancreas was meant to deal with,  couldn't have helped.  

At that point  I finally started doing a lot of research on my own,  because I needed to somehow balance my cat's needs for both his diabetes and urinary health.   I learned that a diet close to a cat's natural diet -- high in animal protein, moderate - high in fat and very, very low in carbs,  was likely to naturally keep the urine pH at a mildly acidic level that is normal for cats,  and make it unlikely for either type of crystals to form. 

And getting more moisture would help keep things flowing through the urinary tract,  and lessen the risk of getting clogged up.

So I took the jump and put him on all low carb wet food.  and even added a bit of extra warm water to his food .   He never had any problems with crystals again , and  he had urinalyses twice a year for the rest of his life.

What I started out feeding was Evo .   then fed a variety of food like grain free, fish free Merrick and Wellness.   Then eventually Nature's Variety Instinct.   I am not saying those are the only possibiities.

The thing about the Fancy Feast Classics are they are very high in phosphorus and that might not be great.  All FF has some fish in it.    (Obviously some has less than others.)

 Did you read the catinfo article on urinary tract health? http://www.catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth

 And there is also a food chart on that site.   http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf

 

[denice]

I fortunately haven't had to deal with this but the way I understood the prescription food it has an amino acid added to it which lowers the pH.  The way I understand it there are some cats that need the prescription food.  That is why it's a good idea to check the pH while trying the kitties on a high meat content, no grains food just in case they are one of the ones that truly needs the prescription food.

 

[maewkaew]

 That's a good idea, Denice.   Definitely it can't hurt to check the urine pH.      I forgot to mention that I did that at first a few times because I was so afraid of him getting blocked again.  and then later,  that was part of the tests he got twice a year. 

   Generally  I think the 'target range'is  between about 6.0 to 6.5.     Of course it varies throughout the day. 

 Increasing water intake and urine volume is also an important factor in preventing crystals of both the most common kinds.     It really makes no sense to me. to

  At the time Louis was put on the c/d,  there was only one 'flavor' of the canned  and he would not eat it.  I don't know if he would have eaten the other kinds.  ( It still would have been too high carb  ,  but not as bad as the dry. )  There's also similar diets from Purina and Royal Canin,  so if Daisy prefers to stay with a prescription diet,  there might be a canned kind he would eat

What always seems ironic to me is that foods like c/d  have so much grains added (because it's cheap to manufacture),  which makes the urine too alkaline.  So then they add  something like dl methionine to make it more acidic.   

 I honestly don t know if it would be a good idea to mix that dry c/d and a non-prescription canned.   You might still not be getting enough water to do a lot of good,  and as far as the pH,   it's 2 ways of arriving at the goal  - one by feeding a diet high in meat and low in plants.   the other by feeding a diet very high in grains, with an added ingredient to acidify the urine.      I just don't know how these 2 ways  would balance out.    If you do decide to do that,   I would definitely test. 

For my cat it worked to just totally switch to something much closer to his natural diet.   but I still tested the pH at first.    It's up to each of us to figure out what works for the individual cat. 

 

[sheltieluver]

My cat had crystals he has never blocked and my vet wanted me to try the C/D diet I went with the wet but my cat didn't like it either. I switched him to BG wet food and add warm water to it to make it like a soup so he gets more water. He's now eating Wild Calling and occasionally I will give him some raw. I also add cosequin and Krill oil to his food which has helped. He gets cronic cystitis which is stress related. The fancy feast should be fine to give him.

 

[daisy707]

cprcheetah: 

 The premise of the c/d is it has added salt to get your cat to drink more water.   : I got them mixed up it is Royal Canin & Purinas urinary formulas that have the added salt to the diet.

As long as you are increasing moisture in his diet by adding additional water to the canned food and maybe getting him a fountain to encourage more drinking you should be fine.  I also added Cosequin to my kitties diet because it helps his joints as well as helps inflammation in the bladder.

That's something I was looking at last night on the bag, the c/d has 0.35%, which of course I'm assuming is a small amount, however I don't know the specific amounts cats are supposed to have? lol

I am going to look at fountains! We tried one but he didn't seem to like it, or even touch it for that matter (less than just a normal bowl). I meant to look today while picking up his canned food but we were in a hurry and I completely forgot. 

And what is Cosequin? where is it available?

LDG: 

 Meat is naturally acidifying. Carbs are alkalinizing. So canned foods without grains, starches, and veggies are good and shouldn't be a problem. Even better if you add some water to them at each meal, as the extra water helps keep the bladder flushed out. I'll post the research tomorrow if you want it for your vet. 

It's always a good idea to stabilize on the c/d, and then switch to an all wet diet, one that is high animal-based protein (because meat is acidifying) / low carb, with added water to keep the bladder flushed.

Yes! I'm definitely going to keep adding the water. And sure, send the research to me! And I also plan on staying on the c/d for now since it's only been about 2 1/2 weeks. I definitely want to give it time to work, but about the all wet diet: I'm not sure yet. We will see how everything goes and just give it time. Last night and today both morning and evening he hasn't wanted to eat the wet food at all. ARGH! Of course I can't make him, but hopefully he snaps out of it and continues eating it, because he was doing so well on it with getting enough water 

pushylady: 

 My vet told us what LDG said: the c/d is designed to decrease the PH of the urine (acidic urine is what you want). He said that you should stick with just the c/d dry and/or wet because mixing different foods may prevent the c/d from doing its job.

So we used c/d for years although I was never really happy with the ingredients and the cost.
After doing research on here I decided we didn't really need to stick with a prescription diet per se, just as long as he got: wet, added water, grain free, and very little seafood.
Bear in mind that at this point Pushy hadn't had a recurrence of crystals for a while.  So we phased out the c/d and replaced with a rotation of various grain free canned foods. We are fortunate that Pushy is not at all fussy.

My advice to you would be to phase out the dry food altogether and keep feeding him the Fancy Feast that he will eat (no seafood) with additional water mixed in. Maybe try and introduce some quality canned foods for variety, but if he's fussy and this is likely to stress him, then don't bother.

Poop! 

 Well, I guess we will see what happens. I hate taking that risk! but he has a follow up appointment soon for his annual shots so if the problem continues (crossing my fingers it doesnt) then I'll stick to just the c/d; however at the same time, I might have to do this anyway bc I really don't want to stress him out. He is pretty fussy and picky with his food and even though I'm going to wait a good while before trying to try anything else, I want to be careful. And I avoid seafood! He's not a fan of it anyway, so there's no point in me trying it on him when he shouldn't have much of it. 

maewkaew: 

 Unfortunately, after about 5 years on that diet he got diabetes.   I am not saying that was the sole cause ,  but I am sure the very high carbohydrate level , far higher than a cat's pancreas was meant to deal with,  couldn't have helped.  

The thing about the Fancy Feast Classics are they are very high in phosphorus and that might not be great.  

 Did you read the catinfo article on urinary tract health? http://www.catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth

 That's a good idea, Denice.   Definitely it can't hurt to check the urine pH.      I forgot to mention that I did that at first a few times because I was so afraid of him getting blocked again.  and then later,  that was part of the tests he got twice a year. 

 I honestly don t know if it would be a good idea to mix that dry c/d and a non-prescription canned.   You might still not be getting enough water to do a lot of good,  and as far as the pH,   it's 2 ways of arriving at the goal  - one by feeding a diet high in meat and low in plants.   the other by feeding a diet very high in grains, with an added ingredient to acidify the urine.      I just don't know how these 2 ways  would balance out.    If you do decide to do that,   I would definitely test. 

Sorry to hear that :/ I'm a Type 1, so I definitely don't want my kitty to get the disease. Managing my own plus his on top of his urinary issues would be so much stress for us both. This whole process and doing the research, and trying to find what is best is exhausting to say the least. 

And about the fancy feast classics: I thought it was one of the ones with lower phosphorous? wahh. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought I read in another thread that it was one of the lower, but then again I've read so much my brain is a bit tangled. And I got some of the strips and tried testing him, he will NOT let me get near him which just stressed him out more. Since he's having a few upcoming visits he will probably just get re-checked then. I don't want to stress him out more just to keep trying 

I have read over the entire catinfo site! lol it's so much to take in too. I wish I could find some other reliable sources as well, as I like to compare info. 

How do I get him more water then? I'm going to look at fountains but the one we tried previously he wanted nothing to do with. (of course lol) And lately he's not been wanting to eat his wet food or even just plain cooked chicken (which I thought might be a good treat). So so picky!!

Denise: 

 The way I understand it there are some cats that need the prescription food. 

This is what I understand too; from reading this forum, some have stayed on the c/d and haven't had any other issues at all, or have had to switch ONLY because their kitties starting hacking the food up. But, like I've said it's only been about 2 1/2 weeks so I have to give it some time, I just don't want to mess up the effectiveness of the c/d food with other foods. 

sheltieluver: 

 My cat had crystals he has never blocked and my vet wanted me to try the C/D diet I went with the wet but my cat didn't like it either. I switched him to BG wet food and add warm water to it to make it like a soup so he gets more water. He's now eating Wild Calling and occasionally I will give him some raw. I also add cosequin and Krill oil to his food which has helped. He gets cronic cystitis which is stress related. The fancy feast should be fine to give him.

My kitty didn't get blocked either, he just had some inflammation which is why he was having a hard time going. I tried adding enough water to his fancy feast to make it like applesauce would be (just to experiment) and that was a bad idea! lol He wouldn't touch it at that consistency. ugh. What raw do you feed? And what does Krill oil do? I'm trying to limit his stress as much as possible too, because I don't want to chance him flaring up if that was the cause. That's why I don't want to switch his foods around too much either, so I'm definitely giving him time. 

And thank you all for your replies!!

Daisy

 

[sheltieluver]

Krill oil and cosequin both help with inflamation. Cosequin you can order online. I get mine from work since I work at a vet and get it at cost but the cheapest I found online was KV vets.com and you don't need a RX for it either. Mine didn't like it really watered down either so I started with a little water and slowly increased it.

I feed comercial raw either Rad cat or Prime, Steller and chewy and my husband is a hunter so sometimes raw venison. I have 6 cats so its exspensive to feed them it all the time but I'll give it to them a few times a week.

 

[denice]

I have heard of people who had a kitty that couldn't stay right on anything but the prescription food getting the supplement that is added to the prescription food and adding it to the better quality food.  The way I understand it though it's hard to get the dosage right and keep it right.  I would think the amount would change with the food.

 

[molldee]

My cat has had four urinary blockages (he's 6 years old), finally resulting in the PU surgery. Before he blocked the first time, I was feeding him generic cat food like Meow Mix because I didn't know any better. After he blocked, I fed him wet and and dry prescription food, but then I started doing research and thought the ingredients were bad so I switched to only high quality wet and dry food. Then he blocked for the second time. Then I learned about increasing the water intake, so I bought several fountains, and mixed enough water in his food to make it soupy. I only fed him wet food, all high quality like EVO, Merrick BG, Wellness, etc. But then he blocked again for the third time, and a day after he came home from the vet, blocked for the fourth time. I couldn't understand why he kept blocking if I did everything every article said to do, which was feed only high quality high protein low carb wet foods, increase water intake, calm his environment (Feliway), etc. But he still blocked. My vet suggested the PU surgery, which basically makes him into a female, and since then he hasn't blocked (it's been about a year and two months). I feed him half prescription wet food (Royal Canin Urinary SO) and half high quality like Wild Calling and Dave's. I still mix water in the wet food and every other day I add Cosequin to his wet food. He's had one UTI since, but after I started the Cosequin, everything's been quiet.

What I started doing too after he blocked for the fourth time was test his urine pH. You can buy strips online on Amazon. I checked his urine pH when I fed him only high quality wet food and it was too high (around 7.5), and then I only fed him wet prescription food, and it was around 6. So I definitely think the prescription WET food helps.

So my advice… do what you think is best for your cat. I did, and he still blocked, so I'm keeping him at least partially on prescription food even though I know it's crappy. Some cats who were blocked do well moving onto a diet rich in protein and low in carbs, but my cat didn't. His urine pH was too high and he needs the prescription food. I give him high quality in the morning and prescription for lunch and dinner.

 

[denice]

I do know that some cats do need either the prescription food or the additive used in the prescription food added to the high meat content no grain wet food.  I think it must be something genetic in some cats.  Many cats can go off the prescription foods and some can't.  I know some people have a knee jerk reaction to prescription food because the ingredients aren't very good but sometimes they are necessary.