Mammals with Hooves Included in Raw Diets: I Am Puzzled...

[aprilprey]

I was wondering if someone with more knowledge of raw diets than I can answer a question.  Basing raw diets on poultry and rabbit makes sense to me: small wild felines eat birds and rats - and I guess rabbits are the close to rats/mice: small, furry creatures.

But - how does meat from cattle, deer, buffalo and lamb fit in?  Like many people, I have seen a lion take down a wildebeest on the TeeVee.  Lions are larger felines - I thought domestic cats were closer to smaller wild felines that ate small mammals.

Where is my knowledge lacking?  Is there a really small mammal with hooves out there I don't know about that is prey for the smaller wild felines?  How does a smaller wild feline get a hold of a mammal related to cows or deer - and is of similar size?

Are domestic cats close enough genetically to lions, etc...that its ok?

OR - do they scavenge this meat from kills that other, larger felines - the little leftover bits?

Anybody know how these mammals (cattle, deer, buffalo, lamb) are species appropriate for domestic cats?  I know fish is not particularly species appropriate, but I can see a small feline catching a small fish out of a pond; but not catching a cow.

Thanks in advance!

 

[vball91]

Well, it's not clear that the larger animals we feed are species appropriate. Certainly their bones are too large for our cats. Small rodents, poultry and rabbits are certainly a more natural part of a cat's diet. Unfortunately, they are harder to source and more expensive for the main part. However, the larger animals have been a part of the domesticated cats' diet for decades since the commercial pet food industry uses the waste of the human food processing industry. This is why chicken, beef and fish are the most common proteins in commercial cats foods. If you want to feed a truly species-appropriate diet, then whole prey small rodents, birds and insects would be the way to go.

 

[Willowy]

I have seen farm cats scavenging a deer kill and eating from dead cows (if the skin is split so they can get to the meat). So I don't really know if that's "natural" or not, but obviously they will do it.

Basically, meat is meat. There are different levels of nutrients in different kinds of meat, but all in all, there is not a lot of difference in the meat of a rabbit vs the meat of a deer.

But, yeah, if you wanted to go for a truly natural diet for your cat, you'd only feed small rodents, rabbits, lizards, insects, and birds.

 

[aprilprey]

I have seen farm cats scavenging a deer kill and eating from dead cows (if the skin is split so they can get to the meat). So I don't really know if that's "natural" or not, but obviously they will do it.

Basically, meat is meat. There are different levels of nutrients in different kinds of meat, but all in all, there is not a lot of difference in the meat of a rabbit vs the meat of a deer.

But, yeah, if you wanted to go for a truly natural diet for your cat, you'd only feed small rodents, rabbits, lizards, insects, and birds.

OMG - I am going to sleep so well tonight, now that I have scratched that question off The Big List of Questions.  Thanks!

 

[lehighluke]

Basically, meat is meat. There are different levels of nutrients in different kinds of meat, but all in all, there is not a lot of difference in the meat of a rabbit vs the meat of a deer

I would have to disagree with this. Venison is a lean red meat, and rabbit is a lean white meat. I am not a nutritionist, but the nutritional composition has to be different. I would think domestic cats' ancestors did not eat red meat on a regular basis.

My opinion is that a rabbit-chicken combo is a good surrogate protein at an acceptable cost

 

[ldg]

Well, we don't know what African Wild cats eat. They exist today, and are basically genetically identical to our domestic cats. They are the "ancestors" of our cats. I would fully expect they hunt small mammals, as do our cats, and scavange on anything they can - gazelle? zebra? musk ox? :dk:

Of course there are differences in red meat vs white meat. But is rat red meat or white meat? Is rabbit white meat? Like pork is? :dk: I fed my cats ground mouse, and it was dark, dark red. :dk: That could have been blood, I have no idea what the muscles look like.

Poultry may be smaller and cat-sized, but birds typically make up only about 17% of the "average" feral cat diet. (There are a lot of studies done on the feeding habits of feral cats from around the world. The best summary is in a chapter of this book: "The Domestic Cat: The Biology of its Behaviour," Turner & Bateson, 2000.

 

[Willowy]

Ah, well, it seems there's no real definition of "white meat" vs "red meat". . .one definition said that lamb is white meat, and I've always seen it listed with the red meats that should be fed to dogs. And Orijen's Regional Red dog food does indeed have lamb :tongue2:. And it says that rabbit is always considered white meat, but that meat from adult mammals is considered red meat :dk:. And chicken and turkey are considered white meat, but duck and goose are considered red meat. it's all too confusing! :lol3: So it's probably more useful to make the distinction between mammal meat and poultry or fish.

USDA considers any mammal meat as red.

 

[ravencorbie]

This is really interesting, because I'm wary of "red meats" since my cat throws up when she eats them, but I'd been hoping to try out rabbit.  According to the USDA, that would be "red" meat, but maybe in terms of my cat's peculiar digestion, it's "white" or "okay".  I didn't mean to hijack the thread, just that in some cases, maybe the mammal vs. bird is not as useful a division as something else (although then we have to deal with what the division actually IS -- why IS rabbit considered in those cases to be white meat?)

 

[goingpostal]

A raw diet for cats ideally would be small, whole prey items, but that is not always possible, cost and acceptance problems.  To me variety is important, sourcing is important, and to a lesser degree how species appropriate the animal is.  I often see it stated red meat is "better" but I focus more on getting as close to whole animals as I can and feeding wild or well raised meat over mass farmed animals again if possible.  Now my cat is rather picky, she loves mice, she loves rabbit.  Turkey and chicken are well accepted, duck, quail and grouse less so.  She will not eat hooved animals and pukes if she does.  But some cats do great on a diet of beef, pork and deer. 

My ferrets on the other hand would eat all whole prey if I could afford it.  They love rabbit, guinea pigs, mice, quail, day old chicks.  They also get chicken, turkey, game hens, duck and grouse, they do not like plain white meat much but love the darker meats and organs, especially gizzards, livers and hearts.  They will eat just about anything in ground form or freeze dried raw so I take advantage of that to get meats they normally won't touch in chunk form.  Fish, beef, venison, goat, llama, pork, lamb, they eat a ton of different proteins and I feel better with the variety than just feeding animals they could naturally eat although ferrets normal diet is highly dependent on where they are, in NZ the feral ferrets mostly eat rabbits with a small amount of possums, hedgehogs and birds.  But black footed ferrets eat almost nothing but prairie dogs and polecats in europe eat voles, frogs, lizards, birds.   

 

[lehighluke]

This is really interesting, because I'm wary of "red meats" since my cat throws up when she eats them, but I'd been hoping to try out rabbit.  According to the USDA, that would be "red" meat, but maybe in terms of my cat's peculiar digestion, it's "white" or "okay".  I didn't mean to hijack the thread, just that in some cases, maybe the mammal vs. bird is not as useful a division as something else (although then we have to deal with what the division actually IS -- why IS rabbit considered in those cases to be white meat?)

Hare-today says that rabbit is all white meat, and 95% lean.

 

[ldg]

Well, since there's no apparent definition of "white" meat or "red" meat, we don't really know what that means. You can buy hamburger that's 95% lean. All it means is that on an as-fed basis, the fat is 5% of the total weight. Domestic lamb properly trimmed can be said to be 5% lean. :dk:

That they are 5% lean means Tracy's rabbits fit the profile as described by the USDA: http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/5146?qlookup=17177&fg=&format=&man=&lfacet=&max=25&new=1

I've posted this in other threads, but it seems appropriate again. :lol3: Domestic rabbit is one of the meats with a higher fat content, and it looks nothing like wild rabbit our cats eat.

Macronutrient content of proteins w egg white 1212

• ldg
• Jul 31, 2013

Venison, Turkey thigh, and chicken breast - on a macronutrient basis - look the "most" like wild rabbit.

 

[ldg]

Here's the most interesting distinction between red meat, white meat / light meat & dark meat I've found so far: http://science.howstuffworks.com/zoology/birds/ostrich-meat1.htm

 

[lehighluke]

Here's the most interesting distinction between red meat, white meat / light meat & dark meat I've found so far: http://science.howstuffworks.com/zoology/birds/ostrich-meat1.htm

LDG, what's your background? You have the most intellectually nourishing posts

 

[ldg]

:lol3: I'm an equity research analyst. I research. My free time research was dedicated to cat predation issues for a long time as a feral cat advocate, and I published my work on my website (http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/cat_predation.html). But when we rescued an FIV positive kitty with a number of issues (including explosive diarrhea and "allergies" as defined by traditional vets), I turned most of that free-time research to cat nutrition. I first argued against raw diets here on TCS, but it was diet-related research that led me to FEED a raw diet. Those that put the time into the threads with me (and others!) arguing against raw here were very gracious regarding my about-face. :lol3: As we discussed in another thread, sometimes it just boils down to common sense. ...for me, it took an understanding of how the AAFCO works to allow common sense to prevail.

Also, my husband has a lot of medical challenges (I already researched those so completely it's just a matter of keeping up on any new developments, which are typically few and far between, sadly), but it makes normal social life difficult, so I spend a lot of time on the internet beyond working hours.

 

[aprilprey]

Ah, well, it seems there's no real definition of "white meat" vs "red meat". . .one definition said that lamb is white meat, and I've always seen it listed with the red meats that should be fed to dogs. And Orijen's Regional Red dog food does indeed have lamb

. And it says that rabbit is always considered white meat, but that meat from adult mammals is considered red meat

. And chicken and turkey are considered white meat, but duck and goose are considered red meat. it's all too confusing!

So it's probably more useful to make the distinction between mammal meat and poultry or fish.

USDA considers any mammal meat as red.

I thought white meat consisted mainly of slow twitch muscle fibers; dark meat are fast twitch muscle fibers (or the other way around???).  So most animals have a little of both?  Slow twitch is for endurance - sustained movement.  Fast twitch is for explosive movement.  Not sure - its just one of those things I read somewhere that percolating around my brain...I'll have to look that up.

 

[aprilprey]

I'm an equity research analyst. I research. My free time research was dedicated to cat predation issues for a long time as a feral cat advocate, and I published my work on my website (http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/cat_predation.html). But when we rescued an FIV positive kitty with a number of issues (including explosive diarrhea and "allergies" as defined by traditional vets), I turned most of that free-time research to cat nutrition. I first argued against raw diets here on TCS, but it was diet-related research that led me to FEED a raw diet. Those that put the time into the threads with me (and others!) arguing against raw here were very gracious regarding my about-face.

As we discussed in another thread, sometimes it just boils down to common sense. ...for me, it took an understanding of how the AAFCO works to allow common sense to prevail.

Also, my husband has a lot of medical challenges (I already researched those so completely it's just a matter of keeping up on any new developments, which are typically few and far between, sadly), but it makes normal social life difficult, so I spend a lot of time on the internet beyond working hours.

Ok...I am not crazy...from the article linked:

"The primary defining factor in whether animals are white meat or red meat is whether their muscles are mostly fast-twitch or mostly slow-twitch."

I never know which voice in my head to listen to or not!

BTW: I was reading similar stuff in "The Cat's Mind"....cats in Australia eat lots of lizard! Hmmm...how much is that Iguana in the window?

ALSO - the equity research analyst gig sounds fascinating...I used to love to curl up with an SEC Form 10K - but I'll bet that's child's play to you!

 

[ritz]

Great chart, LDG!

I guess I come down on the side of:  Ritz doesn't know or care if it is red meat or white meat, fast twitch or slow twitch.  And honestly neither do I.

I do care about providing her with a wide variety of protein; she use to be a Fancy Feast Classic Seafood addict so I am a bit paranoid about her becoming fixated on, for example, veal.  I also try for a wide variety of protein so she gets different micro- and macro-nutrients, though I am not as conscientious as I should be about varying the cuts of meat (different parts of the cow = different nutritional profiles).  I have recently found a source of chicken organs such as thymus and pancreas, and I am giving them to Ritz; variety IS the spice of life.

Ritz loves rabbit, but I have come to believe that that is because it is low in fat.  I generally feed two types of proteins in one day, i.e., rabbit and pork.

Like some other posters said, in the wild, Ritz probably wouldn't eat buffalo, llama, pig or cow, but I can get those meats somewhat easily.  And since my squeamish threshold is Jello pee [kidney], I won't feed whole prey such as mice.  Yet.) 

 

[ravencorbie]

This is interesting, but still confusing when it comes to rabbit.  According to the article you linked, rabbit is "dark meat" -- so does that mean it has some white meat, but because most of the meat is slow-twitch it's "dark"?  Or was it a mistake and should have read "red meat"?  I've eaten rabbit before in France, and I would agree that at least the parts I had tasted most like dark meat chicken or bone-in pork, but slightly richer.  As a side note, all this talk of rabbit had me look up sources besides Hare Today as it made me think I might want to cook myself some someday -- alas, it's too expensive for me right now.  Anyway, back on topic, I'm pretty convinced based on my tastes, the article, and the quote from Hare Today that rabbit is in fact mostly "dark" white meat.  I'm going to try to get some so that my cat can have some variety.  Still don't know where I'm going to store it, though.

 

[lehighluke]

This is interesting, but still confusing when it comes to rabbit.  According to the article you linked, rabbit is "dark meat" -- so does that mean it has some white meat, but because most of the meat is slow-twitch it's "dark"?  Or was it a mistake and should have read "red meat"?  I've eaten rabbit before in France, and I would agree that at least the parts I had tasted most like dark meat chicken or bone-in pork, but slightly richer.  As a side note, all this talk of rabbit had me look up sources besides Hare Today as it made me think I might want to cook myself some someday -- alas, it's too expensive for me right now.  Anyway, back on topic, I'm pretty convinced based on my tastes, the article, and the quote from Hare Today that rabbit is in fact mostly "dark" white meat.  I'm going to try to get some so that my cat can have some variety.  Still don't know where I'm going to store it, though.

I am from PA, and I will be moving to Philly in a few months.  We were visiting our soon to be house this week (under construction) and stopped by the Reading Terminal Market in Center City (sorry if you aren't familiar w/ Philly)...but its basically a farmers market on steroids...a real classic spot in the city.  It was my 1st time there, and one of the meat vendors had rabbit....it totally had me thinking about getting some to try for myself.

Back on topic...you all have me doubting my initial intentions w/ the raw diet.  I make a rabbit-chicken combo, basically I blend a poultry base and rabbit base batch from Dr. Pierson's site....I figure I get all the good whole animal parts from rabbit, but I dillute it down w/ chicken for cost, and add chicken livers etc.  (OH...that market had ALL KINDS of organ meats too...2 months ago I never would have been excited about that, lol)....and my plan had been to just make that same, blended food, well forever.

Now I am thinking per your input to change up the protein.  Is there anything necessarily wrong with my method?

 

[vball91]

Well, there's nothing "wrong" per se with your method. Dr. Pierson has been feeding only those two proteins for about 10 years I think. The general guideline for raw feeding though is a minimum of 3-5 proteins for their different nutritional profiles. So if you can add other proteins I think it would be good. The monotony effect does apply to cats well. I know there is no way my cat would only 2 foods day in and day out forever. I can barely get her to eat the same meal 2 times in a row.