Male Infertiility Testing

[aemerine]

Hi all -

I'm new to the forums but have something I need advice on from other Breeders.  My wife and I breed Bengals (all with TICA certs) and have been trying to build a cattery.  The issue I have is we have 2 queens (one proven and one not yet) and a stud.  We purchased the stud from another breeder as a kitten and which is the norm when starting out.  The stud is going on 3 yrs old now.  We built our whole program around the hopes of this first stud.  The issue is we believe he may be infertile.  He does the deed with both queens but nothing.  This has been going on for well over a year now.  So where I need advice is a couple things:

What is the widely accepted test that breeders use to authenticate the infertility?  We have a clause in our contract from the breeder that we can request a replacement if he is infertile but it doesn't specify what test is used to prove it.  I've called dozens of vets, a cat clinic (vet that specializes in only cats) regarding a sperm count test (since that's what they do in humans -- pardon my ignorance) and none of them do it or even know where to go.  The only advice I got was that maybe a university vet program might.  Getting this test seems like it is rare and not common so I'm getting the feeling that the sperm count test is not the commonly accepted test for infertility in male cats.  Most vets have mentioned that they can do a testosterone test but that does prove infertility.

My second question is if the sperm count test is the commonly accepted form of proof in the breeder community then where does one go to get one of those tests performed on their cat?  One vet said they do it in dogs by taking a freshly inseminated female and extract the sperm that way.  I think that would be a long shot getting two cats to breed on command (LOL).  But that vet didn't do cats or know where I could get it done.  FYI - We're in the Chicago area.

Anyhow, I need real advice as to what some of you out there may know or have experienced regarding this.

Thank You.

 

[StefanZ]

Several years ago, when I was active (my residents are two russian blue studs, now ex studs), I dont think there was anything like that...   Just the practice, if there was no results with one female, than try another one...

We had also in every mating contract the clausule: if the mating wasnt successul, there would be another mating free of charge,  IF the stud was still not neutered.  OR we wrote we did abstain from such a clausule.... 

A radical extra test could prob be to try on a healthy moggie.  Although nobody ever admitted it - much frowned upon / and forbidden by our association, I suspect some could do it at times, to have a broader experience base, if fertile or not.   AND also giving the stud extra lesson of how to do it - some studs are inexperienced or even, dont really know how to do it...

My younger boy, the son, was very succesfull, every mating got a litter.  My older one, the champ,  had among other successfull matings, had two matings which didnt resulted.  In both cases it could be the female or sheer unluck, but, still, there was perhaps some shadow on his  ability to fertilize, however knowleable, friendly and pleasant stud he was with his visiting ladies.

Since then, I didnt heard of any big improvements, but I was neither paying really attention.  It may be vets who work much with cat breeders has their tricks.

My advice is you try with another female too.   If not moggie so  make it known your stud is open to healthy pure bred bengal females with proper certificate.  The fee to be discussed depending in part on how many healthy kittens there are.

(this practice is btw common in Sweden).   Do it rather quickly, as time begins to run now for your queens...

Good luck!

 

[shunra]

Have you been back to his breeder?  They might want to try him with one of their girls, they might just take him back, they might state what test they want.

 

[abymummy]

It's actually easier to have the females checked out than to do a sperm count.  I would suggest that you get in touch with the male's breeder and ask for stud service (if possible to both your girls).  If that proves to be viable and you have confirmed pregnancies with healthy kittens, you can definitively rule out the fact that it is the girls that is infertile and that the fault DOES lie with the male.

Hope this helps.

 

[shunra]

Think she said that one of her queens has already had a litter, so it's only the other one she needs to take to stud to see if she can get pregnant.

 

[aemerine]

All great advice.  It is much appreciated.

shunra you are correct one of the queens has already proven to be fertile and has had a litter by a different Bengal stud (via stud service not ours) 2 years ago.  Our stud has mated dozens of times with the queen (which had the litter) when she goes into heat over the course of the last year and a half.

 

[shunra]

Think my previous suggestion should be followed up - talk to his breeder.

 

[maewkaew]

I agree with suggestions made by Shunra and abymummy,  it would be a good idea to talk to his breeder and let them know what's going on and both as if they have any and ask what THEY would want to see as evidence in order to provide a replacement. 

  I've  heard the Animal Hospital of Woodstock  ( Woodstock, IL,   about an hour northwest of the Loop)   can do male fertility testing including semen analysis   (sperm count etc) .  One of the vets there, Dr. Jo Randall, is a board certified specialist in small animal reproduction.  Here is a link to their page about male infertility testing      They seem to be more dog oriented ,  which is no surprise as there are a LOT more dog breeders than cat breeders!   

 If you live south of Chicago you could go to a repro specialist at the U of Illinois vet college at Urbana.

There is a thing for collecting semen , like a fake cat vagina.   it's been used for AI ( which does not have a high success rate in cats). I am glad to say I have never had the experience of trying to get a tom to use one!  I would think it would be easier the way you mention a vet telling you about how they do it with dogs -- let the tom mate with a queen and then collect the semen.   But if you end up doing a test,  I'm sure the vet will discuss how to collect a sample.

Getting the male thoroughly evaluated medically,  including hormone  testing and  sperm count/ analysis,  sometimes also including ultrasound of the sex organs,   would be the gold standard.  But in practice,  not every breeder would require  that in order to honor that replacement clause in the contract.  Sometimes breeders just  agree after a certain number of attempts at breeding with females (  including proven females ) resulting in no pregnancies  -- and the females getting pregnant by a different male. (  so as Abymummy suggested, you might ask if you can breed your girls to another of their males,  or to another male,  and if they get pregnant , it shows the females were not the problem.   Anyway, you should not keep holding off breeding these queens and just letting them have a lot of cycles.  if you've been trying for 1.5 years  and haven't bred her to another male, it is time to do that before she ends up with pyometra                                                

 In anyone who has been involved in Bengals for a long time,  male infertility would not be something unheard of.  I think most Bengal breeders these days aren't having a big problem with it anymore because the breed has mostly progressed to later generations that are more predictable in type and temperament.  

What filial generation is this male?   I have heard virtually all the f1 & f2 male Bengals are infertile,  most the f3s and quite a few ( maybe even half?) of the f4s,  and it's only by about f5 that most of the males are fertile.   but I suppose there may be some cases where it persists even a few more generations? .    So if he IS like an F4 or F5,

   Do things appear to be normal  in the mating process?  He is not having trouble with the mechanics?   Do the  queens do the usual "coital cry" and rolling after the mating?       

Has he had a physical exam to make sure nothing structural is wrong?  ( for example there is a fold of tissue that is supposed to detach from the penis as a kitten matures.  but sometimes it doesn't detach and that can prevent him from successfully mating.  Usually that could be solved by a minor surgical procedure. ) There are also other things like hair being wound around the base of the penis -- that's more common in longhairs though.