Low protein / low phosphorus commerical raw

[LTS3]

Are there any low protein / low phosphorus commercial raw foods, basically a kidney diet? And that is available in rabbit or other novel protein? Leroy's creatine levels are high (2.0 mg/dl on a range of 0.7 to 1.8 mg/dl), consistent with the previous 3 blood work results done within the past year. Part of it could be genetic as Abys are prone to renal amyloidosis. Vet would like Leroy on a low protein / low phosphorus diet.

Leroy has IBD and can't eat chicken / poultry. He's currently eating Vital Essentials freeze dried rabbit, sometimes the pork. Phosphorus levels on a DM basis for both here:

https://www.vitalessentialsraw.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Rabbit-Cat-Food-Typical-Analysis-2.jpg

https://www.vitalessentialsraw.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Pork-Cat-Food-Typical-Analysis-2021.png

Should I switch him over completely to pork? Add a phosphorus binder? Find a different brand of raw?

 

[furmonster mom]

Not sure how you’re going to get low protein with a raw diet, since raw is naturally high in protein.

However, there are definitely ways to mitigate the phosphorus, which is really the thing you want to target.

Phosphorus binders are one way; I used niacinamide for Loki, and it seemed to work quite well. I crushed a 250mg tablet (not capsule) into his food. You can start lower by using a half tablet, then increase as needed.

Another way to mitigate phosphorus is to “dilute” the food by substituting a portion of the meal with eggs. Eggs are low in phosphorus, but still a great protein source.

The only thing here is that you need to cook the eggs to get rid of the avidin enzyme. Avidin can create a build up of histamine around the heart, which is no bueno. The silver lining is that vit. B breaks down histamine, and egg yolks are chock full of vit. B.

So, what I do is create an egg slurry: separate yolks from whites, cook whites (cutting into small bits as cooking), add whites back with yolks and stir it all up. Add about a half oz or tablespoon of slurry to food, remembering to subtract an equal amount from the food portion. That’s just my own method; you could always just use the cooked whites on their own.

As for novel proteins, is there a lamb formula available?

 

[LTS3]

Vital Essentials doesn't have a lamb formula. I'm looking for freeze dried lamb and other novel proteins online. This one might be doable but there's no nutritional analysis. There's also this one which Chewy sells but it also has salmon in it

I don't want to risk an IBD flare up with chicken eggs. Leroy's tummy is weird enough as it is

I'll ask the vet about using a phosphorus binder.

 

[Mighty Orange]

INSTINCT Original Grain-Free Pate Real Rabbit Recipe Wet Canned Cat Food, 5.5-oz, case of 12 - Chewy.com

 

[LTS3]

Thanks but I'm looking for raw food, not canned. I do keep NV cans on hand anyways as back up.

 

[Mighty Orange]

Sorry about that.

 

[Mighty Orange]

cat frozen raw — Smallbatch | Dog & Cat Food

 

[Box of Rain]

Not sure how you’re going to get low protein with a raw diet, since raw is naturally high in protein.

However, there are definitely ways to mitigate the phosphorus, which is really the thing you want to target.

Phosphorus binders are one way; I used niacinamide for Loki, and it seemed to work quite well. I crushed a 250mg tablet (not capsule) into his food. You can start lower by using a half tablet, then increase as needed.

Another way to mitigate phosphorus is to “dilute” the food by substituting a portion of the meal with eggs. Eggs are low in phosphorus, but still a great protein source.

The only thing here is that you need to cook the eggs to get rid of the avidin enzyme. Avidin can create a build up of histamine around the heart, which is no bueno. The silver lining is that vit. B breaks down histamine, and egg yolks are chock full of vit. B.

So, what I do is create an egg slurry: separate yolks from whites, cook whites (cutting into small bits as cooking), add whites back with yolks and stir it all up. Add about a half oz or tablespoon of slurry to food, remembering to subtract an equal amount from the food portion. That’s just my own method; you could always just use the cooked whites on their own.

As for novel proteins, is there a lamb formula available?

Good info!

I think your point that it is egg whites that need to be cooked (if served with regularity) in order to deactivate the biotin-binding protein Avidin may get lost on some.

I see in your recipe that it it only the egg whites that get cooked (which is good advice for those regularly feeding cats (or dogs) eggs. The yokes are fine raw. As you already know.

Just wanted to clarify for others reading the thread.

Bill

 

[furmonster mom]

I don't want to risk an IBD flare up with chicken eggs. Leroy's tummy is weird enough as it is

I'll ask the vet about using a phosphorus binder.

Yah, I realized you had said he was allergic to chicken after I posted. I’m a derp.
Still, I was’t sure how the allergies work, if it’s meat specific, would the whites still be problematic?
I can understand your caution, though.

Good info!

I think your point that it is egg whites that need to be cooked (if served with regularity) in order to deactivate the biotin-binding protein Avidin may get lost on some.

I see in your recipe that it it only the egg whites that get cooked (which is good advice for those regularly feeding cats (or dogs) eggs. The yokes are fine raw. As you already know.

Just wanted to clarify for others reading the thread.

Bill

Yes! Thanks for clarifying. I usually specify that it’s the whites that need to be cooked, dunno where my brain was.

 

[Box of Rain]

Yes! Thanks for clarifying. I usually specify that it’s the whites that need to be cooked, dunno where my brain was.

I knew what you meant. Perhaps human being's brains take a hit when we are dealing with 108-115 degree heat?

I'll have your back, if you'll have mine. LOL

Stay hydrated

Bill

 

[LTS3]

cat frozen raw — Smallbatch | Dog & Cat Food

I have looked into that before none of the independent pet stores sell it and it's not something their distributors have

 

[LTS3]

Leroy's BUN is 36 mg/dl, creatine 2.0 mg/dl, and phosphorus 3.7 mg/dl, not much different from the previous 3 blood work results. I'm waiting to hear back from the vet about phosphorus binders and niacinamide.

 

[FeebysOwner]

BUN, as you know can vary by many things. Leroy's creatinine level is not that bad, nor is his phosphorus. What are you wanting to accomplish at this point?

Niacinamide can taste pretty nasty. Why not go for something like Phos-Bind, if you really think he needs it at this point?
Amazon.com: Rx Vitamins For Pets - Phos-Bind 35 gm Powder : Pet Supplies

 

[furmonster mom]

Niacinamide can taste pretty nasty.

I‘ve seen you mention this a few times, could you please tell me where you got this information? I used Niacinamide with no issues whatsoever, mixed in my cats food.

Here is the article about Niacinamide: Raw Feeding for Cats; Niacinamide

excerpt​

“We note it is always best to administer vitamins with food to avoid any digestive upset. While some cats do eat it in food, it does not have to be given this way, but it should be given at or near meal time if being pilled. It can also be fed as a treat in a bit of food or baby food apart from the meal, or syringed by mixing with a bit of food or baby food, whatever method is easiest for you to get it into your cat.”​

 

[LTS3]

I just want to keep his BUN and creatine levels from creeping up. I know I can't completely prevent kidney disease from happening, especially with a breed that is genetically predisposed to renal amylodosis.

 

[FeebysOwner]

I‘ve seen you mention this a few times, could you please tell me where you got this information? I used Niacinamide with no issues whatsoever, mixed in my cats food. Here is the article about Niacinamide: Raw Feeding for Cats; Niacinamide

Some time back that same web site, as you have provided, mentioned it; but perhaps it has been updated since then? Tanya's web site also mentions it, and maybe that is outdated as well. I have also seen it on the CKD io forum, even in response to my specific query about it - just within the past year.

Maybe it is related to cats who have a more sensitive palate than yours. I know my cat can detect things like Dasuquin in her food.

 

[LTS3]

Vet read through the niacinamide info on the RawFeedingIBD web site link I gave him. Since Leroy's phosphorus levels are fine there's no point in using a phosphorus binder but I can give it a try anyways since it won't do any harm. He's not familiar enough with raw diets to know if we should be trying something else to keep BUN and creatinine from being a bit high. I mentioned to the vet's secretary that raw diets are basically meat so there's no getting around high protein.

Maybe it is related to cats who have a more sensitive palate than yours. I know my cat can detect things like Dasuquin in her food.

Leroy is a walking vacuum cleaner so he'll eat anything

 

[FeebysOwner]

Since Leroy's phosphorus levels are fine there's no point in using a phosphorus binder but I can give it a try anyways since it won't do any harm.

If it were me, I would not be using a phos binder of any sort if Leroy's phos level is good. You could actually lower it too much. Where does his phos level fall within the 'normal' range? Some labs use a universal range which includes kittens, who should have a higher level than adult cats. Feeby at 5.9 doesn't look bad given the range is 2.4 to 8.2 but it does include kittens. So, Feeby's level is a bit high for an adult cat.

 

[LTS3]

Phosphorus range is 2.7 - 6.5. Leroy is 3.7 so on the lower end. His BUN and creatinine are just over the high end of those ranges. Is there a way to lower BUN and creatinine but not the phosphorus?

 

[FeebysOwner]

Phosphorus range is 2.7 - 6.5. Leroy is 3.7 so on the lower end. His BUN and creatinine are just over the high end of those ranges. Is there a way to lower BUN and creatinine but not the phosphorus?

Personally speaking, based on Leroy's creatinine level being where it is and having been stable for a while now, you are looking at an elevated level because of his diet. I haven't read that having a higher creatinine due to dietary factors is a precursor to CKD. BUN is variable by many things, including a high protein diet, and if that number has stayed stable as has Leroy's creatinine, it could just once again be from his diet. Hydration plays a role in BUN numbers too.

If his potassium, calcium, and sodium are all normal, I think in your case, you work to treat whatever symptoms you are seeing in Leroy.
You can go through Tanya's website and look through symptoms to see what might be causing them and what is suggested to help curtail them.

Otherwise, if all of this is primarily based on your vet's recommendation to lower his protein/phosphorus intake, you might want to research if raw/homemade diets that are high in protein actually can lead to CKD. Your vet seems to be going down the path that most vets do and wants to treat Leroy's slightly elevated levels the only way they know how - to lower protein. And, with Leroy's numbers, that doesn't seem to be necessary at this time, unless you find research supporting his diet could lead to CKD.

Here is an IRIS article on various aspects of levels related to CKD cats - of note is this one:
The target phosphorus level with a CKD cat, Stage 1 & 2, is 2.7 - 4.5. So, I suppose you could give a phos binder but would have to monitor it pretty closely.
IRIS Kidney - Education - Reassessment of "normal" values in dogs and cats with chronic kidney disease (iris-kidney.com)