Longtime companion cats fighting

[dmb216]

It's good to know others have had success with this sort of thing. Although I tonight's pilling attempt went less well and I could not get DM to swallow the pill. I did not want to traumatize her so I didn't try again. It feels less worth it because I am still separating them at night. Some time after my last update they both hung out on the bed together and in general it almost felt like old times. A little later DM went into the bathroom and Bucket took GREAT interest in this fact. I could not distract her and did not want to risk a litter box engagement so I cut my losses and separated them so I could run some errands. If I can reliably give them the meds I can definitely see us stringing together a bunch of positive hangout sessions.

The moment where Bucket felt the need to follow DM into the bathroom does further my suspicion that there is something territorial going on.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Gabapentin doesn't taste so good, so you might have to 'pull out all the stops' to get her to take it. Anything you can do to get her to take it in a treat, tuna, or whatever that she will scarf down fast is the best approach. If she is not a big chewer of treats, you might consider hiding it in a pill pocket or pill masker.

 

[iPappy]

If you find a food or treat she really likes, give her a few "empties" to get her going and then sneak the one with the pill to her. As she picks it up, place another treat right in front of her. This helps me get Sarah's pill down her, as she's getting the pill down she sees another treat and swallows it quickly so she can grab it up.

 

[dmb216]

I appreciate all the advice - I think I need to experiment with different treats. They both really like temptations but those are too small. To be honest I could cut up the pill, bore out a hole in a few temptations and place the little piece of pill in those.

Additionally, even though they arent interested in the pill pocket treats I wonder if they would eat them if they were placed on top of their wet food.

I definitely don't think I want to be shoving a pill in their mouth twice a day. I feel like that'll get traumatic for all parties. I was able to get DM to take hers this morning but not Bucket. I think as long as one of them is chilled out the effect should be positive.

 

[dmb216]

So I found a pill on the ground later on so I actually think DM spit out her pill in our struggle. So I failed to give both of them their meds this morning. That being said it was still a pretty solid day. I was working so I decided to just keep my door shut and the two of them lounged in different spots throughout the day. They both took turns on the bed for a full nap and otherwise occupied various perches Towards the end of the work day they were both awake and on the bed. Bucket shoved her face into DM's and DM licked it a few times and it was shockingly normal.

Things took a bit of a turn when Bucket went to use the litter. DM took an immediate interest in that. She jumped down from the bed and starting walking over (not quite stalking). I let it play out for a few moments but then used the door to my room as a visual block and also ushered DM out of the room. After Bucket finished in the litter I got her super interested in the wand toy on the bed and let DM back in the room. Bucket got on medium alert and jumped down from the bed. Not aggressive but nervous and body language I wasn't liking. So I ushered DM out of the room at this point. And from then on tonight Bucket has regarded her really suspiciously. After running some errands tonight I came back and decided to see if they'd coexist in my room for a few hours before separating and Bucket went straight under the bed despite no obvious aggressive signs or body language from DM. She also wouldn't eat with DM in view on the other side of the gate. (Even though they've eaten next to each other with no barrier at various points during this). Sometimes this feels like some really mixed up territory stuff that is getting even further mixed up by the fact that they need to be separate.

Should I have let the original litter box interaction play out? Or any of the following ones?

I got some new stuff to try in terms of getting them to take the gabapentin. So far the puree treat did not work (both whole or ground up) - she just licked around it. Is a pill shooter less traumatic than shoving it down their throat? I'm also gonna try it ground up in tuna water

 

[dmb216]

I would like to check that I'm not plateauing at a non-useful stage right now. They share space pretty well - whether its my room or the living room/kitchen area. They are mostly ignoring each other, sleeping in separate perches and looking out separate windows. Which wasn't super uncommon before. And this has all been unmedicated because I've been struggling to give them the gabapentin. The vet is giving me capsules which I will be able to open and portion out - she assured me that it tastes better so maybe I'll have more success hiding it in food. On a workday I've kept them together all day under my supervision. I've then separated them in the evening so I can focus on other things/run errands.

So to be honest while it sounds pretty positive it seems like mealtimes are a bit iffier. At various points throughout the last 2 weeks they've definitely eaten next to each other (with and without a barrier) but with the recent attempts at meds the process has changed a little. Since they outright refuse to take meds via food I went back to trying to feed them on either side of the pet gate and Bucket did not want to. She walked away.

After breakfast I let DM into the room and Bucket went under the bed. But DM ignored her and a few minutes later Bucket emerged shortly thereafter. And we've had peaceful napping in various spots since then. It truly feels like sometimes these cats are convinced there is some monster in the house.

Vet also got back to me on Bucket's lab work. Everything is good. The only notable thing is that she has dilute urine but there were no other factors that raised it to a level of concern - especially when learning that Bucket is on an all wet-food diet.

Again, I appreciate all the ongoing help and support and kindness on here. I discovered this message board through this issue and have since spent a lot time reading old threads. You are all lovely people.

 

[FeebysOwner]

It sounds pretty reasonable to me as far as what is going on with them, and it may likely continue to improve even more over time.

Are you saying the vet says it tastes better or bitter? Bitter yes, - if she said better, I don't know what she thinks has been done to that gabapentin, but I have tried 4-5 different compounded versions of it and have never had my cat take it willingly. And, as far as I am concerned it can taint food too. The only way I have seen/heard it being taken willingly is when it is inserted into something like a small capsule intended for cat medicines and covered with something yummy, whereby the capsule is more or less swallowed whole. I couldn't do that with my cat because she chews everything, whether or not it is needed.

Maybe you don't even need it since things aren't going so badly right now. Although, I don't know what you mean by saying the cats are convinced there is a monster in the house. Have you ruled out any outside critters that might be sensed by one or both cats? Since their behavior appears to be somewhat 'random', there could be something they are sensing outside that is passing by here and there. It could be noises from other homes, construction, trucks, and just about most anything that is a more recent occurrence/event going on. Maybe whatever it is, it is becoming more 'customary' for them to hear/sense, and that is why you aren't having the level of issues you were previously experiencing?

Dilute urine could be an indicator of upcoming kidney issues, or not. So, just something to keep an eye on. My cat had a low USG for years before she was finally diagnosed with CKD, but she has always been an avid water drinker, so maybe the combination for her is/was pure coincidence.

 

[dmb216]

Yah I am similarly curious as to how the capsule form might be better tasting and I'm not staying too optimistic but we shall see. My approach on the meds is that they are intended to decrease anxiety and so if there is no way to give it to them without adding a ton of anxiety then I will likely continue without.

I think I was being a bit too colorful with my language regarding the "monster" in the house lol. I just meant that I catch them searching around in ways they never did before. Like when they come into my room they'll sometimes give a quick glance under the bed (and maybe a few other spots). Like they aren't stalking something - just quickly checking for something that they are worried about.

Yah that's exactly what the vet said on the phone about the dilute urine. Which prompted me to ask if it's safe to give her gabapentin and apparently it is. She suggested that when Bucket is in for her next checkup in Jan I should consider getting an ultrasound.

I think the main goal now is getting them eating near each other again.

 

[dmb216]

Forgot to address the outside stimuli part. To be honest it's hard to tell if there are any critters out there - I can't see anything but I know that doesn't mean much. I know there was a skunk for a while (it sprayed the dog a few days into this madness - so that was fun). Given what I read about fisher cats I think the dog's presence in the yard again is keeping it away (the dog was also gone during the time away when the incident happened). We live on a road that sadly has a lot of industrial places so there's A LOT of noise (and a lot of traffic) that they've both gotten pretty accustomed to.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Yah that's exactly what the vet said on the phone about the dilute urine. Which prompted me to ask if it's safe to give her gabapentin and apparently it is. She suggested that when Bucket is in for her next checkup in Jan I should consider getting an ultrasound.

Yeah, my cat has been prescribed gabapentin since her CKD diagnosis, so I asked the same question.

I think an ultrasound sounds a bit extreme, and I am not certain what it would show if Bucket were in the very early stage of CKD. That would more likely identify damage to the kidneys that may or may not be part of CKD. I'd ask the vet about that. I would expect you to see gradual elevation in Bucket's creatinine level over time as a better indicator. Do you know what her creatinine level is now?

Although, I have never held much stock in the SDMA which is often run as part of a urinalysis, IRIS uses it as part of their staging process for CKD. It is often used to show the likelihood of a cat developing CKD down the road, IMO. I think once they have CKD, the SDMA isn't as meaningful. It certainly has not been meaningful with my CKD cat. Some labs (Antech is one) use a Renal Tech gauge to also attempt to predict the possibility of future CKD development - it is primarily based on: creatinine, blood urea nitrogen (BUN), white blood cell count, urine specific gravity, urine protein, urine pH and approximate age. As far as I know though, it never goes past 'predicting the possibility', in other words it never comes out and states "yep, your cat has CKD".

 

[dmb216]

Yeah, my cat has been prescribed gabapentin since her CKD diagnosis, so I asked the same question.

I think an ultrasound sounds a bit extreme, and I am not certain what it would show if Bucket were in the very early stage of CKD. That would more likely identify damage to the kidneys that may or may not be part of CKD. I'd ask the vet about that. I would expect you to see gradual elevation in Bucket's creatinine level over time as a better indicator. Do you know what her creatinine level is now?

Although, I have never held much stock in the SDMA which is often run as part of a urinalysis, IRIS uses it as part of their staging process for CKD. It is often used to show the likelihood of a cat developing CKD down the road, IMO. I think once they have CKD, the SDMA isn't as meaningful. It certainly has not been meaningful with my CKD cat. Some labs (Antech is one) use a Renal Tech gauge to also attempt to predict the possibility of future CKD development - it is primarily based on: creatinine, blood urea nitrogen (BUN), white blood cell count, urine specific gravity, urine protein, urine pH and approximate age. As far as I know though, it never goes past 'predicting the possibility', in other words it never comes out and states "yep, your cat has CKD".

To be honest I might have misheard her a bit on the phone - I don't do well on the phone for things where there are a lot of details so when I go in to get more gabapentin I am going to ask them to repeat the details. She listed off all of the normal lab results (including some of the ones you noted above) so if creat is part of that then it is normal. When she told me about the urine dilution she listed all of the other normal values that make it not a huge concern. She also asked if Bucket drinks a lot of water which she doesn't and that seemed like it was good news. So I'll get some more details on what they think the next steps would be.

 

[FeebysOwner]

I have gotten to the point that I get copies of my cat's bloodwork and urinalysis and track them for myself. I have even made spreadsheets where I can compare tests going back years to current. It is just something I personally think all cat caretakers should do to help with knowing what is going on in terms of what all the counts/elements mean and to look for trends - especially as a cat ages. I could be wrong, but until something does go 'wrong' I don't think most vets look past the previous set of tests when new tests are done, so a trend may or may not be as easily identified.

 

[dmb216]

I was ready to declare today the best day since this all started and I did not separate them for the night soon enough. They spent the day together and hung out a lot. And napped near each other a bunch. I split them up for a bit while I went to the vet and ate dinner. Then I hung out in my room with them. And it was legit like old times where they were swapping time on the bed truly relaxing, cuddling
(with me) and napping. Then they both became more active and things were still fine.

In general Bucket seemed a bit more on edge and DM was pretty close to "normal" to be honest.

Then Bucket went to the litter and then went under the bed. That wasn't an issue because DM did not care - I was occupying her attention because I knew it was getting close to time to split them up. The problem was DM ALSO eventually went and used the litter. And when she exits the litter box after pooping she is a little ... worked up. I really really wish I acted more quickly and just shut her in with the litter box or something.

So she went straight under the bed and encountered an also worked up Bucket. And they got into a prolonged fight that they eventually did stop since I could not physically intervene. No blood, tufts of hair or visible injury.

This is so disheartening. Complete separation it is.

 

[dmb216]

If they have access to other hiding spots and towers is it ok to block access to under the bed? Or block off all but a very limited, reachable portion of under the bed?

 

[FeebysOwner]

I don't know what you mean by complete separation. Things are not going to go back to normal, like a flip of a switch - even though it seems as if they went bad that way. I think you will have setbacks along the way. The fact that there were no visible issues - no hair flying, etc. is a good thing unto itself.

Unless there is some specific meaning to being under the bed that is going to cause an issue otherwise, I don't see why you can't block access to that location. But I guess I didn't understand that was the only place where they have gotten into spats.

 

[dmb216]

So I've definitely gotten used to the idea that this is going to take time. Even though tonight was a nice reminder that they can coexist peacefully with no other factors I knew in the back of my head that what eventually happened was still always possible. It's just hard to know what is a setback and what is "square one" - in the immediate aftermath of something like that it's hard to imagine them sitting in a room together again. But I suppose they had an incident on Friday and reintro'd fine on Sunday (with drugs).

So I figure at least a day for the separation. Or tomorrow night if I can drug them.

It isn't the only place they've fought but there are 3 beds in the upstairs and those are where most of the fights have occurred that we have seen. Although they usually start somewhere else. But the way I see it: if they had access to only a reachable portion of under the bed I could have prevented the fight from starting (but not the hostilities).

Either way I hope this is just a setback and not allll the way back. I need to get more confident with the drugs - I think the gabapentin would help.

 

[RainBoots]

Can you tell us a little more about their litter boxes? I saw you mentioned they have three, now in separate locations. Are they covered?

It could be something as simple as one cat was using her box and got spooked, which upset the other kitkat. They seem to be repeating a pattern by getting tense about box usage.

If you continue to have problems with the gabapentin, you could try some calming treats.
these were the ones we used for our boys, though there might be more recent recommendations
https://www.chewy.com/dp/279951

How are you doing?

 

[dmb216]

So there's currently 4 total litterboxes. One is out in the living room and it is covered.

There are 3 in the bedroom area where we were sectioned off last night when this happened. The bedroom has a bathroom and a walk-in closet that are next to each other. There's a covered box in each with an uncovered box next to the one in the bathroom because I was curious which one they'd use more.

In general they've both used all the litterboxes because I've been swapping them between the bed room and the living room. So whichever is in here uses one of the closet boxes. And whichever is in the living room uses that one.

I thought keeping them in here for long stretches would be good because they'd be relaxing near each other and while that seems to work the moment the litters came into question there was tension. Should I just leave an uncovered box in the open space of the room? So no one has to go into a closet if they don't want to?

I appreciate the treats suggestion and your check-in. I've been stressed beyond anything I can remember. I've had other anxiety inducing situations but this feels heightened. These two are so important to me and it's unthinkable to imagine they might not be able to live in peace. I know it's my anxiety starting to creep in but every once in a while I think of a nightmare scenario where I need to pick one. I know that's dramatic because we spent so many good hours together yesterday (and over the course of the week) and this is a process but I'm doing this alone (outside of yall and the vet) and it's starting to wear on me. My roommates have been great but I know my body language has probably not been great when they are doing perfectly normal (but loud and possibly upsetting to a stressed cat) things. I just don't think they understand how high-stakes this is for me. I just wish I had a better space for this.

 

[iPappy]

So there's currently 4 total litterboxes. One is out in the living room and it is covered.

There are 3 in the bedroom area where we were sectioned off last night when this happened. The bedroom has a bathroom and a walk-in closet that are next to each other. There's a covered box in each with an uncovered box next to the one in the bathroom because I was curious which one they'd use more.

In general they've both used all the litterboxes because I've been swapping them between the bed room and the living room. So whichever is in here uses one of the closet boxes. And whichever is in the living room uses that one.

I thought keeping them in here for long stretches would be good because they'd be relaxing near each other and while that seems to work the moment the litters came into question there was tension. Should I just leave an uncovered box in the open space of the room? So no one has to go into a closet if they don't want to?

I appreciate the treats suggestion and your check-in. I've been stressed beyond anything I can remember. I've had other anxiety inducing situations but this feels heightened. These two are so important to me and it's unthinkable to imagine they might not be able to live in peace. I know it's my anxiety starting to creep in but every once in a while I think of a nightmare scenario where I need to pick one. I know that's dramatic because we spent so many good hours together yesterday (and over the course of the week) and this is a process but I'm doing this alone (outside of yall and the vet) and it's starting to wear on me. My roommates have been great but I know my body language has probably not been great when they are doing perfectly normal (but loud and possibly upsetting to a stressed cat) things. I just don't think they understand how high-stakes this is for me. I just wish I had a better space for this.

The stress level thing is very real. Anyone who has ever been in that situation knows you can't just "stop being anxious", I'm sorry this is affecting you so badly. It doesn't sound like they are anywhere NEAR getting to that point where you'd have to re-home one, IMO.
On your own stress level. Can you feel yourself tensing when you see them looking at one another? Do you feel your body (mostly your shoulders and jawline) tense up? Do you find yourself holding your breath without realizing it, or leaning towards them without realizing it?

 

[RainBoots]

It might be beneficial to uncover the boxes so no one can get cornered in one. Not sure about moving them, so long as there are multiple escape options.

Cats are a really involved pet - more than most people think. Their health and reactions can be so subtle that it takes a lot of energy and focus to care for them.

If you can take breaks outside the house, even just a walk. Managing your stress will help them too. You already know this of course, but it doesn't hurt to hear it again.