Just found a fairly local coop

[harleydiva]

While poking around the internet tonight....I just found a raw food coop (Raw Paws).  They are out of Indianapolis, but apparently make deliveries from Kentucky up to southern Michigan, Wisconsin etc.  Looks like I could intersect with their delivery route a little under 40 miles from home.  Here is the store link: store.rawpaws.org

The prices look really good.  Rabbit @ $2.95 pound

                                          Quail @ $1.88 pound

                                          Venison @ $1.88 pound

They have a mix specifically for kittens @ $2.18 pound

Ground Beef, Ground Chicken, Ground Beef Heart,  Ground Beef Liver, Ground Chicken bone, Ground Whole Egg

My biggest concern is that they don't list percentages of bone and organs in the mixes.  Several of the ground mixes have bone, but no organs.

I'm currently using the ground mixes from My Pet Carnivore, which are meat/bone/organ mixes....the whole animal.  The bone seems a bit high, so I add in chicken hearts, gizzards, and some boneless chicken strips and tripe to bring down the bone percentage. I'm not sure about the organ percentages in this scenario, but assuming I'm in the ballpark with the ratios that would result with whole prey.

With these mixes from the coop, I'm not sure how to get the organ and bone amounts right.  I like the fact that they have some mixes without bone, which I could add to the meat/bone mix to get the percentage of bone down.  I use Alnutrin as a supplement....so would I just add in enough of the supplement to cover the meat/bone amount?  

I like the prices...but I'm totally confused about how to figure it all out.....it's making my head hurt.....lol.

 

[vball91]

I would contact them and ask the bone and organ percentages. They should know unless it's just whole animal ground. That kitten mix is obviously not whole animal, and they should be able to tell you. If not, I don't know how you would be able to figure out how to supplement.

 

[harleydiva]

I would contact them and ask the bone and organ percentages. They should know unless it's just whole animal ground. That kitten mix is obviously not whole animal, and they should be able to tell you. If not, I don't know how you would be able to figure out how to supplement.

It turns out the regional person in Michigan for this coop is someone I know.  She is working on getting me the percentages on the products.  The coop is currently not actually delivering to Michigan....she is picking up orders for herself and a few other people in northern Indiana.  I could meet her on the road on pickup day.  She is hoping that if she can rustle up some more people in southwest Michigan, they will start doing an actual delivery there.  She has show dogs, so is very picky, and is very pleased with the quality of the products.  The prices are really good, and they have some products (quail, venison, etc) that I can't get from MPC, so I think I am going to give it a try in April.  She has been using MPC, but feeds over 200# a month.....and also likes the pricing from the coop.

I know I have seen several calculators mentioned.  Is there one I could use to figure this out?  I would like to combine some of the meat/bone mixes with just meat mixes to get the bone percentages down to 5-7%.  Also, some of the mixes don't contain organ, so I need to figure out if I would have to add any.  Then I would also need to figure out how to do the supplement.  Most of the dog sites say 10% bone....but I really would like to avoid having to mix dog and cat food separately and try to keep track of which is which.

Speaking of supplements, I have read several sites recently that insist that a complete raw diet doesn't need supplementing.,,,,most are dog oriented though.  

 

[vball91]

Cool! Yes, if they will provide you with their percentages of bone and organs, you can figure out how much additional meat you need to get the ratios you want. Adding the supplement shouldn't be hard after that.

A lot of raw feeders do not supplement. If you were feeding whole prey, I could understand why not. Most of us feed frankenprey or ground though, so it's hard to know which nutrients are missing from not feeding the whole animal. We also feed farm-raised animals, not free-range grass-fed, so again the nutrient profile will be different. If you feed ground, then there are further nutrients lost from the grinding process through oxidation. I think those of us who supplement are just being extra cautious.

 

[harleydiva]

Got a response back......the two ground product lines  they offer are: 1: Raw Paws (their own products), and 2: Blue Ridge Beef products.  They stated that all run 10% bone, and 10% organ......so equivalent to what I am getting from My Pet Carnivore.  The MPC products all have organs included......some of these don't.  I figured out that adding 5% organ to these mixes means 0.8oz per pound of organ (probably chicken livers as they are easily obtainable.)  Easy enough to grind up the organ in the Magic Bullet and stir into the mixes when I am doing the preparation.  

Here is my question tho......Since the mixes I currently get are 10% bone and 10% organ.....I normally give the cats a chicken heart and or gizzard with meal, or a couple strips of chicken thigh in order to reduce the bone/organ percentages.  Should I go ahead and add 10% organ to the mixes, since they have 10% bone?  If I add only 5%, it seems like I might be lowering the organ mix with the additional heart, etc.

I hope that made sense....

 

[vball91]

Originally Posted by HarleyDiva  

Got a response back......the two ground product lines  they offer are: 1: Raw Paws (their own products), and 2: Blue Ridge Beef products.  They stated that all run 10% bone, and 10% organ......so equivalent to what I am getting from My Pet Carnivore.  The MPC products all have organs included......some of these don't.  I figured out that adding 5% organ to these mixes means 0.8oz per pound of organ (probably chicken livers as they are easily obtainable.)  Easy enough to grind up the organ in the Magic Bullet and stir into the mixes when I am doing the preparation.  

I'm a little confused. You state that the new ground products all run 10% bone and 10% organ, but then say some of these don't have organs included?

Here is my question tho......Since the mixes I currently get are 10% bone and 10% organ.....I normally give the cats a chicken heart and or gizzard with meal, or a couple strips of chicken thigh in order to reduce the bone/organ percentages.  Should I go ahead and add 10% organ to the mixes, since they have 10% bone?  If I add only 5%, it seems like I might be lowering the organ mix with the additional heart, etc.

So, if you have a ground mix that 10% bone and 10% organ, any extra unsupplemented meat you give them will lower both of these percentages as you stated. Since you want about 10% bone (less for cats that may have constipation issues) and 10% secreting organ, aren't you concerned that you are lowering these percentages too much? Or are you trying to lower those percentages? From the above, I'm not sure how often you're giving them unsupplemented meat.

So, to answer your question, if you have a mix that's only 10% bone and 90% muscle meat, I would add at least 10% organ, maybe more to compensate for the extra unsupplemented meat you're feeding.

 

[harleydiva]

I'm a little confused. You state that the new ground products all run 10% bone and 10% organ, but then say some of these don't have organs included?

So, if you have a ground mix that 10% bone and 10% organ, any extra unsupplemented meat you give them will lower both of these percentages as you stated. Since you want about 10% bone (less for cats that may have constipation issues) and 10% secreting organ, aren't you concerned that you are lowering these percentages too much? Or are you trying to lower those percentages? From the above, I'm not sure how often you're giving them unsupplemented meat.

So, to answer your question, if you have a mix that's only 10% bone and 90% muscle meat, I would add at least 10% organ, maybe more to compensate for the extra unsupplemented meat you're feeding.

Sorry for the confusion.  Some of the mixes are meat/bone/organ at a ratio of 80/10/10.  Some of the meats are meat/bone only, at a reported ratio of 90/10/  These meat/bone only mixes include quail, venison, turkey....which I would like to include in their diets.  I have been adding some unsupplemented meat the the current 80/10/10 mixes because most of the posts I have read here indicate that cats should have only 5% bone and 5% organs.  Am I wrong??

I have been adding a heart and/or gizzard to their supplemented ground meals, for added taurine, to offer additional food (they are all under a year old), to decrease the bone/organ levels a bit, and to get them to chew on something.  Am I messing this up?  

 

[vball91]

I have also seen bone percentage recommendations that say 5-7%, with 10% being the max, so I do understand lowering that, especially if there are any constipation issues or issues digesting bone. I have never seen organ percentages recommended below 10%. I believe
some commercial ground mixes use 20% liver, so I don't think you want to drop below 10% on the organs. You could feed some additional fresh liver or freeze-dried liver or kidney to compensate. If you kept that to 10% of the unsupplemented meat, you could easily stay at 10% without changing your current ground mix.