I've Officially Given Up Hope. Tiny Will Never Be Potty Trained.

[sunny578]

I used to do a lot of rescue/volunteer work in the cat world, and I spent time counseling people on how to retrain their cat to use the litter box because I didn't think this was a possibility, but Tiny the cat is never going to use a litterbox/p pad/grass patch/dog potty again. She is totally healthy, on special meds to keep her cystitis under control, on a raw food only diet, not especially anxious. She's been going outside the box for #2 for 5 years, and urinating outside the box for 14 months. I've tried absolutely everything. She has been going on the concrete floor under the guest bed in the basement mostly, but then sometimes she just goes on the guest bed, right where she likes to sleep and eat. She will go while she is lying down and while I am petting her. She just had her urine tested and her vet says her cystitis is not flaring up. She's 9 and extremely healthy.

She ruined the hardwood floors in the house we were renting and 3 couches. Now we have a new house and I just can't let her out of the basement. Every time she jumps on the bed or the couch, we freeze, wondering if she's getting ready to urinate on us. It's horrible, and it's horribly sad to think that she is going to have to stay down here indefinitely. There are windows--it's mostly a ground floor space--so maybe once she knows our house is home we can rig a cat door so she can go outside as she pleases. I'll move my desk down here so I can spend extra time with her.

It doesn't seem like anyone else has a cat that is this hopeless of a case. Anyone out there have a cat that just couldn't stop urinating inappropriately no matter what they did?

 

[talkingpeanut]

What happens if you put her in a smaller area with a litter box? Have you tried cat attract litter?

 

[abyeb]

Have you tried different types of litterboxes? Covered vs. uncovered?

 

[sunny578]

Yes, we've tried cat attract, grass patches, pee pads, empty boxes, dirt boxes, covered boxes, uncovered, large boxes, small boxes, boxes she doesn't have to step into with the side cut off, and floor panels. In a smaller area with only litter/litterboxes she will go in the one place her food is

 

[talkingpeanut]

Have you tried medication?

 

[abyeb]

Has she been spayed?

 

[sunny578]

Thanks everyone for your comments. Makes me feel a little less alone in this situation. Yes, Tiny was spayed very early bc she was from a shelter. She was the runt of a litter of orphaned bottle babies that I fostered from when they were one day old, so she never had a mom. She was spayed when she was 9 weeks. She's had meds for cystitis and is on calming herbs (TCM.) I don't feel open to pharmaceuticals for anxiety bc she's generally a happy/non anxious cat.

Shortly before she started her anti-litter box campaign for urine, my other cat died, but I don't think this is the cause, bc she still used the box after that. This whole thing started when we took a month long honeymoon last summer. There was one weekend that our regular pet sitter couldn't cover, so Tiny (and our two dogs) were watched by a friend who ended up bringing another dog over. After that, Tiny started running away and hiding under our neighbor's shed. Our regular pet sitter lured her back, but even after we got home she kept running away and hiding under there. We would have to wait a few days until she was hungry enough to come out for food before we could coax her out from under there and bring her back inside. She was a completely different cat under there--she'd growl at me, look at me like she had no idea who I was. I think maybe during her time under the shed she perhaps got used to urinating where she slept? Also, when we got home from our long trip, we discovered that Tiny's main litter box had been taken off the floor and put on a desk that was too tall/messy for Tiny to jump onto. This was really the only one she was using at that point--a large, empty box. She has never liked litter or used it to cover her business.

It took maybe a month before we could get her to stop getting "stuck" under our neighbor's shed, and maybe a few months after that to get her to (mostly) stop going to the bathroom on the couch/us/the bed. She eventually settled into the habit of going under the guest bed or, right in the middle of the house on the hardwood floor. We use pheromones and those help, but even with those, she will have times where she jumps on the couch or bed, right by us and urinate.

We just bought a new house mostly for Tiny. The other house was very small, and there wasn't really enough space for us to secure a dog free area for her. We started her out in the master bathroom, hoping to retrain her to use the box by placing only litter boxes in there and putting some litter on the floor where we couldn't fit a box. She used the litter box on day one, but after that would go on the ledge by the window and on the one spot on the floor where her food was. She would howl in there at night, so I tried to move her to the guest room, but in the process she got loose and ran into the basement, where she's been ever since. Since in the past she seemed to feel most comfortable urinating in the middle of the house where we all were, dogs included, I don't know that my original goal of having a dog free area for Tiny and her urinating area is the right direction. I would happily put a litter box/pee pad/whatever in the middle of the house, but when I've done this in the past, she just goes around it.

I feel like I've tried everything a behaviorist would suggest. I'm also afraid a behaviorist would blame the dogs because they do get excited when people are over, but we don't have people over very often at all, and Tiny seems comfortable around our dogs. She lies down around them, blinks at them, sidles up to them. It seems like Tiny is a social urinator. Urinating seems to be a bonding experience for Tiny, and I have no idea how to train this association out of her. I thought maybe by spreading her scent around the house--putting her fur/blankets on our bed and couch, that would help, and it did, a little. But still, best case scenario at this point seems that Tiny will urinate on the floor 80% of the time and on the couch/bed 20% of the time. We were ok living like that in our rented house because we knew it was temporary, but we just can't do it anymore. The floors were starting to smell, and the couch was all weird and misshapen from my continued cleaning efforts. We would never get rid of Tiny, but cats are supposed to be part of the family, and even though I spend a lot of time in the basement with her, this whole thing is making me very sad.

To top it all off, I'm 37 weeks pregnant I was so hoping to get her to a good place before our baby came.

Thanks for reading.

 

[talkingpeanut]

It sounds to me that she does have serious anxiety issues, even if she is social too. Cats that are totally confident just don't behave in this way. I would seriously consider medication to see if it helps. It could help her to reintegrate with the family, which would be wonderful.

 

[Elfilou]

My heart is breaking for the both of you. I would associate a cat sleeping in their own pee as extremely anxiety ridden, as it probably signals that smelling her own scent around her is the only thing that makes her feel remotely secure.

I say yes to letting her out. It's a last resort and with another situation I'd say don't but... it's about her quality of life. Right now she sounds miserable. It sounds like a chemical imbalance/clinical depression. I'm not a doctor though and haven't even seen your cat in person so don't take it from me, you and your vet should consider what is best for your cat.

I get the reluctance about pharmaceuticals but you're at a last resort with her IMO. If she is scared to go out or it does not improve her in appropriate peeing, you can consider it. These drugs can not "fix" her but they can give her a better quality of life, possibly. Maybe to you she doesn't seem particularly nervous, but her actions are, to me, suggesting otherwise. If my cat did this I'd be very worried about her mental wellbeing

 

[sunny578]

Thank you for your thoughts! I know it doesn't sound like it, but she really is a happy well-adjusted cat. She has always had litter box issues, but I've always been able to eventually get her back to it at least for urine. She doesn't go back to sleep where she has urinated, but she will sometimes urinate where she has been sleeping and relocate, especially when she misses us. It's a warm summer here, so we are all spending a fair amount of time in the basement, and she loves that guest bed that's down there, so I think she'd probably be spending the majority of her time down there anyways as she gets used to the new house. She loves to hang out outside and has great street smarts, but I just wanted to wait a little bit before letting her out since I'm not sure that this new house is home to her yet. There is a friendly orange tabby posse on our block and we are hoping she will fit in with them! Even though she went outside at our last house though, she would run back inside to urinate on the floor, and then go back outside. Geez Tiny!

I think whatever happened while we were gone last year with her fav litter box and the unapproved dog in our house was enough to destroy what small relationship she had with going in the box. (She's never been normal on that front, maybe bc she didn't have a mom.) Also, our other cat who died last year was fairly smelly and shed a ton, probably making our house smell more like cat. Our other cat was a big calming presence, and even though she and Tiny weren't particularly bonded, I wonder if she made her feel more secure. Tiny has always lived with cats up until last year, so I keep tossing around the idea of getting another one, but it seems risky especially since I'm about to have a baby.

Tiny does still struggle with constipation, despite diet changes and supplements. I keep hoping to find others with cats with extreme litter box aversion, but it seems like we have a uniquely difficult case. It really seems like the only source of her anxiety is the litter box. She even looks at them like they are the enemy, so maybe I should just move them out of her space and focus on floor mats/panels. I also keep trying to look up random health issues to see if maybe I can find some physical problem with Tiny that has gone under the radar. The only thing I have come across so far is that she loves nutritional yeast and takes one of her cystitis supplements in that, but I guess nutritional yeast can also increase uric acid in the urine. I think increased uric acid would have shown up on her recent urine panel, but I'm not sure. I know nutritional yeast significantly affects human urine color, so maybe it is changing her urine somehow.

Thanks all!

 

[sunny578]

OMG Tiny has now used the designated floor mats twice in a row!! They are these huge rubber mats from Target that have little groves in them for wiping the mud off of boots. I wasn't sure she'd want to step on them, but thought they might be perfect for keeping the urine in place before I had a chance to clean them, and also preventing the urine from getting on her feet (Maybe that's why she runs away from it when she goes on a flat surface?)

I also removed the litter boxes from her space. I think I was being stubborn and not listening to the message she was sending (I hate and am terrified of litter boxes.) I have no idea what happened when we were on that trip (one of our dogs ended up with a bowel obstruction that same weekend that Tiny ran away and had to have it surgically extracted) but maybe the pet sitter's dog scared her our of her box for good. Maybe the presence of the boxes in the basement felt like pressure/stress to her? I had 10 or so down there, so if they did trigger some kind of fear response, it would have been excessive. She used to be afraid of this wolf tee shirt an old boyfriend had, so she is a particularly perceptive and sensitive cat.

I also added a tiny bit of canned pumpkin to her food per the vet's suggestion, and she seems a little bit more comfortable on the constipation front so far. I've been keeping her urinating and #2 activity separate in my mind, but maybe feeling constipated can also lead to inappropriate urination for cats since the discomfort is in the same general area?

Thank you so much for letting me talk this all out! People think I'm crazy, my husband is supportive yet not one to obsess over possible causes and solutions, and my vet will only brainstorm with me so much. I'm sure there are still accidents and set backs in our future, but hopefully we can establish a good habit here!

 

[Elfilou]

If she doesn't seem to be an anxious cat could it be that she is "over owning" the territory? That she's very territorial toward outside cat's? It is a very strange situation.

I'm a firm believer that no problem can be solved before you know what the cause of the problem is. You can try to scoop all the water out of a sinking boat, but if you don't look where the leak is you will inevitably drown.

I'm happy to brainstorm for solutions but only you can make the best guess on what is causing the problem here.

 

[sunny578]

I know--she is so weird!! I think it partially has to do with not having a mom help her establish that connection with a litter box? I totally agree--I have been trying to get inside her head for the last year. I would guess that she doesn't really care about the other cats in the neighborhood from a territorial standpoint, but I could see her feeling like if she urinates on the bed or the couch every once and a while, she could tilt the smell of the house more away from dogs and towards cats. Pheromones have really helped with that, as did moving her blankets around the house and spreading her scent that way, but I still couldn't get her to stop urinating on the floor in the other house.

Now though, we are on 5 straight days of appropriate urination on the rubber floor mat I bought from Target! It's this heavy plastic that has an odd fishy scent, so I wonder if that helped. I have a huge one under the guest bed downstairs, and 3 more small ones on the way. I'm nervous, but hoping to gradually increase her access to the house. The mat has lots of little grooves so I wasn't sure she'd want to step on it, but I think it's actually perfect--comfortable enough to step on but not comfortable enough to sleep on. Hopefully she will continue to associate them with urine only!

We also have new furniture and a much bigger house (before we were working with 640 square feet plus 2 medium-large dogs) so I think at least for now there is not an overwhelming dog smell. The previous owners did not have pets, so hopefully this can be a clean scented slate for Tiny. Hopefully since she has claimed the downstairs, she can continue to see that as her safe/quiet retreat, and this new baby won't throw her off. Too many life changes at once!

Thank you for helping me brain storm