Is this Siberian cat? (please i really need to know )?

[randox]

i need to know if this is Siberian cat or no

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/192/sevjd.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/263/zzzzzzp.jpg/

 

[glamourpuss]

Hi Randox, that is a very pretty silver tabby you have there. Without pedigree papers that document the cat's ancestry it is very hard to say for sure if a cat is a 100% purebred or not. Where has this cat come from?

 

[krazy kat2]

Whatever his breed, he is beautiful.

 

[StefanZ]

Originally Posted by randox

i need to know if this is Siberian cat or no

Is somebody trying to sell this kitten to you, as a pure bred Siberian?

Without papers it is a moggie, whatever thay say.

Once every year it MAY be a real pure breed without papers. Thus, for example, I have heard about a small russian blue breeder here in Sweden, who didnt registered her litters.
Thus, the kittens were technically moggies, but as everyone in Swedish breeding circles knew the circumstances, and the kittens were sold as home pets, they still were recognized between friends as pure russian blue and the owners welcomed to partys of the Russian blue club as owners of russian blue cats. (oh, owners of moggies are btw welcome too

).
But this is rare.

No papers, or at the very least - a fool proof, 100% sure tracking = moggie.

Your kitten is truly gorgious,.
The character may be easier to see when adult, and he is a young kitten, just old enough to be sold.
but for me he doesnt quite has the looks of the pure bred siberian.

So if it sold to you as a siberian, for full price - say no. Sorry but say no.
If it is sold to you as a like alike wanna be, for price of a nice moggie - take him if you wish. You will surely be happy with his looks and him too.

Good luck!

ps Welcome to the Forums!

 

[pendraig]

I get these questions a lot as I run a large fanpage for my cattery and the breed on Facebook (See Facebook Siberian Cats ). On my fanpage you can peruse the photos and see the different Siberian kittens i've produced as well as some photos other fans of the breed have posted (check the wall photos) to compare to this kitten but really it would all be in your mind because without papers / registration slips your cat is not a pedigreed breed.

All we can say is without papers, it's not a Siberian cat. The breed exists as a breed because of the pedigree. This breed is a natural breed that was created by obtaining natural born cats that developed in Russia (and Siberia). The land race of cats exist in Russia on their own but it takes an experienced breeder or judge, who understands the breed standard intimately to pick them out from the other moggies and cats living semi-feral lives in Russia. (also someone who has known these cats their entire lives as part of their heritage).

If someone is trying to sell you this cat as a purebred and they have no papers then they are lying to you. If they are claiming the cat is a Siberian Cat they must have pedigrees to prove it. Otherwise, it's a lovely moggie with a pretty silver tabby coloring. No more, no less. A lovely cat to own, and if he's well socialized then a good new friend as well.

Take care and if you do get the kitty I hope you enjoy him/her. =)

Dawn
Pendraig Siberians

 

[nekochan]

Originally Posted by Pendraig

If someone is trying to sell you this cat as a purebred and they have no papers then they are lying to you. s

What if the parents are Siberians, and the grandparents are Siberians, etc...

 

[pendraig]

A pedigreed breed is denoted by a pedigree. Without it it could be anything. the likelihood of an back yard bred or shelter found or feral cat being any purebred is less than 3% according to most statistics and that would be for more common breeds like Persians. Siberian cats are extremely rare in this country, still very "new" to pedigreed breeding so the likelihood is even less. Here's a good article about it from Fancier's Referral List:

http://www.breedlist.com/faq/purebred.html

 

[northernglow]

Originally Posted by Nekochan

What if the parents are Siberians, and the grandparents are Siberians, etc...

You wouldn't have any actual proof of it if the kitten wasn't registered, so you wouldn't know (unless you bred them yourself). If the parents indeed were pedigreed breeding quality Siberians, the kittens would be registered, unless there is something to hide.. (I.e. not breeding quality cats used for breeding, too high inbreeding, sick cats, needed health tests not done, too many litters from same queen which is a major health risk and the list goes on. Some associations will not register a litter if everything isn't done exactly like their rules state).

 

[nekochan]

Originally Posted by Pendraig

A pedigreed breed is denoted by a pedigree. Without it it could be anything. the likelihood of an back yard bred or shelter found or feral cat being any purebred is less than 3% according to most statistics and that would be for more common breeds like Persians.

I know that it is not common for cats in shelters to be purebred, but I mean if they were from a breeder or owner but just did not have papers... I was thinking more in general terms rather than specifically about Siberians.

Originally Posted by NorthernGlow

You wouldn't have any actual proof of it if the kitten wasn't registered, so you wouldn't know (unless you bred them yourself). If the parents indeed were pedigreed breeding quality Siberians, the kittens would be registered, unless there is something to hide..

I am thinking more like something like if they were purchased from a breeder with a s/n contract but had an "oops" litter before they were s/n; or a cat purchased on a limited registration but then bred so the parents could be registered but the litter was not registrable. Or where someone (byb) buys two pedigreed cats to breed, but doesn't bother to register them so the offspring would also not be registered.
Not saying these would be the best *quality* cats but they would still be a member of that breed.

Originally Posted by NorthernGlow

Some associations will not register a litter if everything isn't done exactly like their rules state).

So there is another example where the cat could be a Siberian (or other breed) but not have papers-- if the breeder didn't do something exactly right, and so the association would not register the litter even though both parents may be purebred/pedigreed.

 

[jennyr]

As I understand it, you might 'know' in some of these circumstances that the cat is a purebred, but without its papers saying so it cannot be legally sold as a pedigree. and certainly not bred from. If it were, its progeny could be diluting the desired breed characteristics and would negate the whole principle of registration.

 

[northernglow]

Originally Posted by Nekochan

So there is another example where the cat could be a Siberian (or other breed) but not have papers-- if the breeder didn't do something exactly right, and so the association would not register the litter even though both parents may be purebred/pedigreed.

These rules usually include certain tests for certain breeds so no diseases are passed on (sick cats aren't allowed to breed), and there's also the 'too often bred' thing. The queen can't handle being bred all the time, so to keep them healthy there is a rule not to breed more than 2 times in a year, but no more than 3 litters in 2 years. The sire also has to receive at least one 'Excellent' result from a show if he's bred more than once, to keep the breed up to standard (These are FIFÃ[emoji]169[/emoji] rules).

Some kitten mills ignore these rules and breed their cats anyway between the actually registered litters to get money. It's cheaper to breed without all the vet tests, stud & show fees and important stuff like that so they might actually even get some money with these litters if someone is stupid enough to buy a kitten from them (and the breeder usually asks several hundreds for these kittens, much less than for the registered ones though).. They can for example breed mother+son and claim the sire is actually some other 'famous' stud, the kitten buyer would never know because there is no pedigree. There's no guarantee about the kitten's health either.
If they get caught for breeding unregistered litters, they are kicked out of the association and lose their breeding rights. This happens very fast in country this small.. and everyone knows everyone within their own breeds, so it's very risky.

 

[pendraig]

You can speculate all the possibilities on finding a shelter or stray cat that is a purebred or even 50% Siberian cat but the odds of rhat are slim to none. Just look at the small number of breeders in the USA compared to other long haired breeds for one then compare those numbers with the overwhelming number of feral, stray and unwanted mixed breed cats and you will see it's probably more likely to win the lottery than to find a purebred Siberian cat running loose or at a shelter. Not to say it doesn't happen but it's extremely, extremely rare and unlikely odds.

That said, the most responsible breeders are now spaying and neutering all kittens before they leave the cattery. The only exception we make is for breeders who are well established and who follow our guidelines as far as minimum DNA and other health screening tests, not inbreeding a ton and overall being responsible themselves. I don't start up new breeders unless they will show an alter (fixed cat) to a pretty high title first. This shows me they are seriously dedicated to the breed and not just trying to start another back yard breeding operation or "kitten mill" or just one of those types who feels validated breeding animals to sooth their own egos. I did sell a couple of breeders to people I mentored but it so far has not worked out. None were truly dedicated and that includes situations where they had to move so the cat went out the door (back to me, because i require that).

I wish more people did things like we do at Pendraig Siberians but there is probably about half the breeders in the USA that are still not spaying/neutering kittens before they leave and many of those will sell to someone wanting to breed and not care what happens to the cat or if they even sold a healthy and genetically sound cat for breeding. Still, even with all of those you'd have to get extremely lucky to have found a purebred at the shelter or stray.

I do get asked this question so much especially on my Facebook Fanpage for my cattery and the breed and everyone is disappointed when I don't just say "oh yes that's a Siberian cat". I'm sorry to disappoint but it's likely not but if it makes you happy to believe it's possible go ahead! =) Just don't tell people it's a purebred Siberian cat. Dont' mislead others but if you want to say a possible Siberian cat mix or whatever I have no problems with that. I just want to make sure our breed is represented accurately and we have enough poorly typed pedigreed Siberians without muddying the water with unknowns confusing people. Soon everyone will think a long haired cat of medium to large build without the flat Persian face is a Siberian cat. =)

But you are welcome to check out my photos on my website and compare them to your kitty and enjoy the fun photos. I have many kitten pics and photos of cats with kids or doing silly stuff. Much of it quite undiginified for cats. Siberians are very "dog like" and the personality can be an indicator of the breed too. I cannot tell you the number of cats my son and i have trained to play fetch before they go home to their owners. I only had one non-Siberian cat (a rescue DSH) that did that. He was a blast, very Siberian like in personality but just a typical short haired brown tabby. I miss him very much.

Take care!

Dawn
Pendraig Siberians

Dawn

 

[sillysiberians]

As much as we'd hope that all breeders are as responsible and informed as Dawn and other notable breeders, I have to counter that I think there are plenty of Siberians to be found outside the catteries. Maybe it's overly cynical of me, or maybe it's just blind hope that my mutts are true Siberians, but I think there's an irresponsible breeder somewhere around me turning them loose. One cat was a rescue from an abusive home (owner had a dozen or so other cats that turned against her) and possesses all the physical and personality traits of a Siberian. The previous owner handed her over to us for free, but since he was a complete hick, there was obviously no documentation for her.

But since she was decidedly the most awesome cat ever, and played nicely with my allergies, I started the long process of filling a piggy bank to get a baby sister for her.

The second cat emerged from a lucky Craigslist find, a trap/neuter/release program,  just a friendly do-gooder who used her own funds to house, nurse, and neuter feral kittens. 1 year later, our shy little Boots is starting to fluff out into yet another fantastic cat. Both are also extremely allergy friendly - and they don't mind me using them as a pillow, either.

Though I haven't asked my neighbors, I'm pretty sure my cats' boyfriend that comes to visit is a Siberian too.

Whether it's because of unpopular coat colors, or just supply exceeding demand, I'm pretty sure there are Siberians floating around in the "paperless" world...

 

[northernglow]

Well, my ex is very allergic to cats and is just fine with my currently 7 kitties who are British Short- and Longhairs and one Foldie. He will be actually getting a kitten from me who will stay in my breeding program but live at his place. That's why I wouldn't count on any of these "I'm not allergic to this cat, it must be breed X" things.

If you are talking about the 2 cats on the pic, I can tell you that the blue tabby doesn't look like a Siberian at all to me, the head (specially nose and ears) is different, I can't see a 'collar' either. I can't properly see the one in the back so not going to say much about him/her.

 

[sillysiberians]

Here's Boots, all grown up!

I guess for my purposes, it really doesn't matter what their lineage is other than my own curiosity. Boots was $40, so for all I care, her mother could have been a scrappy barn cat, she still turned out to be a great and gorgeous kitty. But if you're considering a cat with a Siberian sticker price, then you'll want to verify she's the real deal.

As a poor yuppie and recent college grad, I can say that it's very hard to justify dropping a thousand dollars or more on a pet when there are free cats roaming in need. But keep in mind: an ordinary cat can cost more than $300 for the initial vet care (neutering, vaccines, etc) and you'll want to set aside more than that for future care. It's my understanding that some breeders will provide a health guarantee, "starter kit" of the food she was weaned on, perform some of the initial vet care, and also, and they've got the advantage of plenty of experience in kitty-rearing. (The advantage of an expertly litter-trained kitty is priceless) If your deciding factor is money rather than pedigree, make sure you consult your local vet and determine whether you're saving anything by adopting from a non-breeder.

 

[StefanZ]

It's my understanding that some breeders will provide a health guarantee, "starter kit" of the food she was weaned on, perform some of the initial vet care,

Yes, this is the minimum standard for all serious breeders. Even some not so serious breeders will do most of it.  So it is true, you do spare at once at least 100 bucks the of the 1000 you do pay for a pedigree kitten.

Probably more, as the pedigree cat owner does seldom go to the low cost vet clinic. 

 

[StefanZ]

 Maybe it's overly cynical of me, ..., but I think there's an irresponsible breeder somewhere around me turning them loose.

Whether it's because of unpopular coat colors, or just supply exceeding demand,..

 So is also my theory, where there are irresponsible breeders, of any sorts, it happens their "monday examples" gets out. Either dumped, or sold cheaply. And as the back yard breeder want to keep the costs down, he will not safeguard they get neutered as soon as practically possible.

A serious breeder do also get "monday examples", but the serious breeder makes always sure they got good homes anyway.  And gets neutered.  

The not serious breeder has more of these substandard kittens, as they perhaps did began with sub standard queens and studs.

(some breeders of both sorts do let them pts instead, but that is another story, and I dont want to speculate).

Another source of pedigree cats are those lost.  I know of several examples just in the small world of scandinawian russian blue world.

Cats gotten astray when on journey to or from exhibitions. Cats gone astray when on holidays.  Some got back, some found dead, but several fate unknown.

Of course, they were all chipped, so if found by a honest person, they find back.  But some founders did get a real pure bred RB of high quality. For them they were of course look alike, as they had no papers.

Im sure it is the same case in all other breeds here in Sweden - and possibly - in rest of the world too.

But most dont like to talk aloud about such.

 

[mrblanche]

For what it's worth, in my several years of volunteering at the shelter, I think I've seen only about 10 cats that I believe were purebred.  Most were Persian.  One was Siamese.  Two were American Curls. 

 

[StefanZ]

For what it's worth, in my several years of volunteering at the shelter, I think I've seen only about 10 cats that I believe were purebred.  Most were Persian.  One was Siamese.  Two were American Curls. 

Right. But a pedigree cat is almost always chipped or tattooed. Thus the finder can always identify it. A honest one contacts the owner, so they seldom come to the shelter.   And a dishonest tend to keep or sell this cat without trying to find the owner.  You do seldom get 1000 buck for a adult, especielly not without papers, but there are still solid good money if you find the right buyer...

And an unhonest finder may also try to sell some of the found look alikes too. Sell them as pedigree or a "mixed".   Even a nice looking "mixed" is money if you find right buyer.

I mean, my guess is the tendency will be it is only the look alikes and pet quality pedigrees with honest founders, who come to shelters.

And the occasionally older pedigrees where the owner died, and there was nobody to really care for the widowed cats. so off to the shelter they go.

Ps.  And as with pedigree cats it is visible they probably are pedigree born at a home, not ferales, so if they got lost or astray,  they will tend to be more often spontan adopted than the usual moggie...Even if said moggie tries to please herself into a home.  The spontan adopter honest and trying to find the owner, or not trying or...etc.

Anyway, the tendency will be they will be adopted this way or another, without passing the shelter-station.

 

[redvelvetone]

YEARS ago, my very first cat, at the age of 5, was a young cat that had been found wandering the neighborhood by a neighbor. He was obviously a pet and not a feral and looked to be in good condition if a little bit dirty. They couldn't keep him and gave him to my parents. We always suspected he was a Turkish Angora (mix or pure) because of his looks and the way he acted, but had no proof. We did put out "found kitten" ads but got no response. Later we found out that a Turkish Angora breeder had lived in the area and had indeed lost one of his kittens at about that time. 

Anyway, the above cats pictured (by the OP, as well as the other poster) are really beautiful, whatever they are. I have a beautiful moggie now (the rescue person told me he was a maine coon mix, but i noticed she calls all long hair cats a maine coon mix, which is not really how it works ). We love him anyway Enjoy your beautiful kitten.He is very sweet looking.