Is my persian going to be a "doll face"

[newkittymom210]

Does anyone know the approximate cost of getting a dna test done? She's offering to get another one done but out of my pocket with my information on it (which I don't understand since she already has the results).

 

[catpack]

I've never purchased from a breeder; but, why can't she just make a copy of the DNA and PKD test and black/white out her personal information? Honestly, the only info that should be on there is her name, address and phone number. Many people pick their kittens up at the breeder's home, so not sure where her issues are coming from in providing this information?

 

[GemsGem]

She says she can't give me the paperwork because it has personal information on it. I had asked her in the beginning about the kitten being registered and she told me she hadn't done it, but didn't tell me why at that time, but that she could do it if I wanted it (didn't say anything about having to pay more though). The 1st email I sent get asked if these kittens were pure (the cost is actually pretty low considering) and she told me yes. I feel like this time she should have told me that he was from a dual pregnancy (she hadn't meant to have persians just Napoleons which are persian/munchkin mixes). I want to believe she did do the dna testing (she said she did it because she realized 2 of the 4 kittens were not short legged and had thick persian fur instead of munchkin fur) because why would she lie? Napoleons are more expensive than persians usually and these 2 kittens are only 350 while the 2 Napoleons were 750. So wouldn't she benefit more to sell them as Napoleons? I just really wish I could see the dna results. Or at least the parents pkd results. Idk what to do now. She was the best priced, and what seemed like best taken care of breeder I had met during my search.

N newkittymom210 I am a breeder of Maine Coon cats. My advise here as a breeder myself, and I know this is going to be heartbreaking for you, as you have your heart set on this kitten plus the money you have invested. But honestly, I think you should just walk away, and find a honest breeder.

There are just too many red flags here. :nod:

1. What personal information on the DNA test does she want you not to see ? It will only have her name, address, ( which you should have these details anyway ) vets name ( why would she want to hide this ? ) and the kitten and father cats details ( why would she not want you to see this, you would get these on the paperwork anyway ) So, what is she trying to hide ? Personally I don't think she has had any test done and is just trying to fob you off. Same with the PKD testing.

2. She must know who mated her cat. Otherwise she has some really bad breeding practices :nod: Accidents do happen, but you would know that your female got in with another male cat.

3. About two kittens being long legged not short legged. A munchkin to munchkin mating would only produce 50% kittens with short leg and rest of kittens will be long normal leg. So will a mating between a long legged cat (Persian) and short legged cat (munchkin) only 50% will be short legged the other 50% will be long legged. These kittens being long legged would not prove they don't have a munchkin parent.

4. Why would she lie about them having a munchkin parent ? Well, a long legged munchkin/Neapolitan - which are known as non standard. Are much harder to sell than the short legged ones. If somebody wants a munchkin or Neapolitan they want them to have short legs, they don't want a long legged one do they.
So the long legged ones are worth much much less than short legs. So, no she would not benefit to sell them has a long legged Neapolitan. She probably benefits more by selling them as Persians. It's easier to sell them as Persians because there is a market for them. Plus ( not sure on this ) but I would think a purebred Persian costs more than a non standard long legged Neapolitan.

 

[mservant]

 

[newkittymom210]

So for my legit breeders on here:none of you would mind handing over proof of a dna test or make your prospect buyer pay to have the same test done again? This brings up a red flag to y'all? if she was hiding something on the dna report why would she offer to have it done again with me getting the results after I pay for it though?

 

[chromium blues]

Well the breeder just informed me that she can't send me the dna results due to having personal information on them and that because of the dual pregnancy issue she did not register these kittens with cfa or tica but that the parents are. She said she would register my kitten but fur an extra 200. Not being able to see the dna results is the only thing I don't like. She also can't offer any papers on the parents saying they are pkd negative but I'd offering a written health guarantee that specifies the kitten is negative. What bites is that her deposits are non refundable so if I back out I probably lose my chance at getting a persian for quite awhile to save up money again... a little confused now

Selling a kitten at a cheaper rate without the pedigree is illegal here, and may be where you are. Here in Canada, if someone offers to sell a kitten or puppy at a cheaper rate without its papers, they are to be reported to the RCMP - it is a serious offence.

 

[mservant]

So for my legit breeders on here:none of you would mind handing over proof of a dna test or make your prospect buyer pay to have the same test done again? This brings up a red flag to y'all? if she was hiding something on the dna report why would she offer to have it done again with me getting the results after I pay for it though?

I'm figuring they don't think you would pay for it, and even if you handed over the money it might not appear for some reason.

The breeder I got my pedigree cat showed me full documentation for both parents, I have a copy of 5 generations of family history for both as well as his pedigree registration document, and were there any dna checks required I have no doubt the dna records would have been there too.  He was also fully insured from birth, with vet records showing no health concerns.  They are actively working with the GCCF here in the UK, along with other legit' breeders, to look at the gene pool for Russian Blues (which is Mouse's breed), and maintain contact with a high number of people who have purchased cats from them with an active interest in all their cats' health to make sure no issues are becoming evident from any of the parent combinations used.  Listen to @GemsGem, her advice looks very sound to me.    

 

[bigperm20]

So for my legit breeders on here:none of you would mind handing over proof of a dna test or make your prospect buyer pay to have the same test done again? This brings up a red flag to y'all? if she was hiding something on the dna report why would she offer to have it done again with me getting the results after I pay for it though?

I'm not a breeder but I know a bit about the subject. There is no reason that she should have a problem giving you a copy of the test. There's no personal info on the form that wouldn't be something she'd have on her business card.

As far as her offering to let you pay for the test... She figures you won't wantcto do that b/c you're on a limited budget. She may also disappear with the money for it and move on to someone else.

The truth is that most likely no DNA test has been done. I also agree totally with @Gemgem 's theory regarding the Napoleon father. She's right that only half of the offspring will be short legged, and the others appear normal. The Napoleons with long legs are worth less. So she's trying to sell them as Persian without papers.

You mention this breeder is less expensive. There's a reason for that. You want to find a breeder like @MsServant used or like @Gemgem. Transparency is key in this transaction. The breeder should be an open book so to speak. Unfortunately it looks like this one is a no go.

 

[newkittymom210]

chromium blues here in tx I've seen it a lot. Breeders offer said kittens for said amount. Once kitten reaches 3 months though if they're still available the breeder lowers the cost but says no cfa papers will go with the kitten. I'm still trying to convince the breeder to white out whatever it is she didn't think I should see and send me the paperwork still. I wish she would have informed me of the dual pregnancy before I placed my deposit, because then I wouldn't have sent it without seeing the paperwork. And the only reason I found out about it was because I was searching her cattery name again and came across her add in her hometown saying her persian was bred to her munchkin and would be expecting in August. Once I asked her about it then she said it was true but that her persian male had also gotten to the female as well... anyone know of any reasonable priced good breeders in tx? Lol

 

[bigperm20]

chromium blues here in tx I've seen it a lot. Breeders offer said kittens for said amount. Once kitten reaches 3 months though if they're still available the breeder lowers the cost but says no cfa papers will go with the kitten. I'm still trying to convince the breeder to white out whatever it is she didn't think I should see and send me the paperwork still. I wish she would have informed me of the dual pregnancy before I placed my deposit, because then I wouldn't have sent it without seeing the paperwork. And the only reason I found out about it was because I was searching her cattery name again and came across her add in her hometown saying her persian was bred to her munchkin and would be expecting in August. Once I asked her about it then she said it was true but that her persian male had also gotten to the female as well... anyone know of any reasonable priced good breeders in tx? Lol

I've heard of breeders doing that as well and although it isn't against the law here in the states, it's unethical and against the rules of all the associations.

For instance if CFA were to find out about this practice they will fine, or in some cases expell the breeder from the association.

They sign a form that states that they agree that ALL kittens will be registered to document their breeding practices.

As far as breeders in TX, you really,should call the CFA and ask them to recommend someone. Not all breeders are online as some people who do it mostly market via the show circuit. The CFA will be able to recommend someone reputable.

Another option would be to attend a cat show. You'll meet some nice people and also get a chance to see their show cats in person.

You still need to do your due diligence on these breeders as well, but I think you'll find them much more transparent.

 

[GoldyCat]

Another red flag for me is her charging an extra $200 to register the kitten. That's outrageous. The most she has to pay to register a litter in CFA is $15. If she has properly registered the litter, she should give you the blue slip (litter registration for that kitten). You then pay $12-17 to register the kitten with you as owner (price depending on how soon after purchase you send in the registration). This is the same for show quality cats or pet quality.

I purchased a purebred pet quality kitten and had no problems at all getting him registered. The breeder actually handed me the blue slip at the time I picked up my kitten.

 

[newkittymom210]

She said she did not bother to register the kittens due to the dual parentage of the litter. Would I still be able to register the kitten on my own at a later date since both parents were supposedly still cfa registered? If so what would I need from her?
She also informed me that no breeder would offer dna testing on a kitten without an extra fee. That the 250 she was quoting new was for a full dna/genetic testing package (genetic markers, coat color, carried genes, pkd, and Persian retinal disorders) and the only test she had done was the verification of parentage testing to confirm which male produced which kitten.
Her exact words from her email states :"I do not give test results out as they have personal information and registration information included on them that can be stolen and/or used by others without my consent. I do give a PKD, Feline Leukemia, and Feline AIDs guarantee with my kittens, that means all my adults are negative (and come from PKD negative catteries), I do not test my kittens but should the new owner decide to do the test I guarantee the kitten to be negative. You will get a contract of sale stating his parents and a health guarantee as well. I am only charging you $350 for Jack because of the dual parent issue within this litter and the fact that he is unregistered. I can register him with CFA if you need your fiance to feel better about his parentage but his price will go up to $500 as that is what I sell my registered pet Persians for."
"Most breeders give the same health and genetic guarantees as I do, that does not mean we offer up any and all paperwork the prospective owner desires to have, but that I guarantee you are getting a healthy kitten that is free of genetic disorders. It is the new owners prerogative on getting their kitten tested and checked during the initial health guarantee period for any genetic disorders or health conditions until they feel satisfied they have recieved a 100% healthy kitten at their own expense (it states this on the health guarantee on my website)."

 

[bigperm20]

She said she did not bother to register the kittens due to the dual parentage of the litter. Would I still be able to register the kitten on my own at a later date since both parents were supposedly still cfa registered? If so what would I need from her?
She also informed me that no breeder would offer dna testing on a kitten without an extra fee. That the 250 she was quoting new was for a full dna/genetic testing package (genetic markers, coat color, carried genes, pkd, and Persian retinal disorders) and the only test she had done was the verification of parentage testing to confirm which male produced which kitten.
Her exact words from her email states :"I do not give test results out as they have personal information and registration information included on them that can be stolen and/or used by others without my consent. I do give a PKD, Feline Leukemia, and Feline AIDs guarantee with my kittens, that means all my adults are negative (and come from PKD negative catteries), I do not test my kittens but should the new owner decide to do the test I guarantee the kitten to be negative. You will get a contract of sale stating his parents and a health guarantee as well. I am only charging you $350 for Jack because of the dual parent issue within this litter and the fact that he is unregistered. I can register him with CFA if you need your fiance to feel better about his parentage but his price will go up to $500 as that is what I sell my registered pet Persians for."
"Most breeders give the same health and genetic guarantees as I do, that does not mean we offer up any and all paperwork the prospective owner desires to have, but that I guarantee you are getting a healthy kitten that is free of genetic disorders. It is the new owners prerogative on getting their kitten tested and checked during the initial health guarantee period for any genetic disorders or health conditions until they feel satisfied they have recieved a 100% healthy kitten at their own expense (it states this on the health guarantee on my website)."

Are you still on the fence with this? Let it go and try to find another breeder. Don't send any money to the new breeder until you have addressed all issues we've brought up in this thread.

 

[mservant]

Here is a link to the CFA Persian Breed Association web site: http://www.persianbc.org/ethics.php

Note that in their code of ethics all kittens should be appropriately regiestered before sale, and that in the Breed standards no outcross breed is permissable.  

http://www.persianbc.org/ethics.php

There is a contact link on their site and it might be worth you contacting them to find out if they have suggestions for repuatble breeders.  If you do not think everyone has said enough here you could also check out what they think of your current situation @Newkittymom210  .  I do unerstand your relucatance to loose your deposit but still fear what you would be walking in to if you do go ahead with this purchase could cause an awful lot of expensive problems and upset for you.

 

[newkittymom210]

So I'll probably get quite a bit of negatively, understandably so too I know, about this but I'm still considering getting this kitten. The breeder is still giving me all the vaccine records, is still getting him neutered, a health guarantee, and will now give me proof of the parents being pkd negative (I still plan on getting the kitten tested myself once I get him since it's fairly cheap to do). Idk why she still refuses to show me the parentage results but I informed her I will be doing a dna ancestry test on the kitten as well to see if he is all persian blood or if munchkin is in there too, at which point I would be reporting her to cfa, tica and just giving her cattery a bad name in general. She still asures me 100% that he will come out healthy and all persian just as she said.
I'v just fallen in love with this little guy already, how could you not! IV been getting pictures of him since he was 3 weeks and feel like he's mine already. As long as he's healthy is the main thing right? I never cared about a pedigree I just wanted a pure persian. I don't think he's going to be the flat face I wanted but I also don't think he'll have a long doll face either, probably something in the middle which she did inform me of from the beginning.
I have definitely learned my lesson on jumping the gun and putting a deposit down before I had all the facts. I was ill informed on what I should have asked for and looked for in a breeder and too excited about finally getting a persian I could afford and didn't even know about the different "looks" until it was too late. I should have done more research. I know this now.

These are some pix she sent me this morning of the kitten in her husband's jacket while he was making breakfast. Seriously how could I NOT fall in love with that face!

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• newkittymom210
• Oct 9, 2014

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• newkittymom210
• Oct 9, 2014

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• newkittymom210
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[mservant]

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• newkittymom210
• Oct 9, 2014

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• newkittymom210
• Oct 9, 2014

  What's with that fur-do in the middle pic'? 

   Way too cute....  No hard time from me, we fall in love with these purrsonalities and most times there is no explanation for why we do.  You are absolutly right, the main thing is that your little guy is healthy.  From the photos I doubt he will be lacking in human contact - though it's anyone's guess on how he takes to fur grooming.   

  

So, now the question is how long is this long wait going to be - before you meet everyone and hopefully adopt this crazy-furred kitty?

 

[newkittymom210]

Well he won't be 3 months until mid November so I got quite awhile to wait unfortunately. According to the breeder he is used to brushing but will be getting his 1st bath at 8 weeks, an event IV asked her to record for me!

 

[bigperm20]

We can only share our experience and wisdom with you. Whether you choose to take that knowledge or not is up to you.

He is very cute. If you can't get papers at least get her health guarantee in writing. Good luck and please post pictures when you get him.

 

[lindamc62]

I think the dual pregnancy is a lie and your kitten is a non-standard Napoleon.  Hopefully he's healthier because of the mix.  He is adorable and will grow up to be a beautiful cat!  Since you are already in love (and who could blame you), your plan of testing and reporting the breeder after you get your kitten is a good one. I bet she doesn't think you will do it!

Best of luck with your new baby and be sure post pictures!

 

[Willowy]

I'm fairly certain there aren't any reliable tests for if a cat is purebred or not. There are none for dogs and dogs are much more straightforward genetically. There are some tests for trying to figure out what breeds a mixed-breed dog may have, but they aren't very reliable and they can't be used to determine purebred status.

Anyway, if you're satisfied with the care he's received, the price isn't bad if he'll be neutered and vaccinated. Since you won't be showing or breeding, the most important things are health and socialization.