Is He Playing Too Rough?

[s0mthinG]

Good morning!

Let's start with some background:
Coconut is a 5 month old neutered (used to be) only child. He was separated from his mother a little too early as when I rescued him he was only 6 weeks old. He's had issues chewing and biting a little hard in the past and that is only accentuated now because he is teething. He is also pretty big I think for only being 5 months (he's about 5 lbs)

The issue:
I just brought home a new little kitty Hazelnut (who is 2 months old 1.5 lbs and spayed) to keep him company while I'm away during the day.
The introductions have gone very well and they warmed up to each other very quickly. The issue that has arisen is that when they start to play with small batting (Coco usually bats very slow and gentle to start, then Hazel retaliates with a very fast smack that riles him up until he's chasing her around the room) When he catches up to her and the start to wrestle that's when she screams and is very scared of him.

For a while after that she hisses whenever she smells or sees him and I am forced to keep him separated out of my room and in the living room where his litter and food is. He does not like this at all and cries at the door until I let him back in and things are good for a while until the cycle happens again.

He is normally very timid around her until she starts something with him by either running up to him or batting at him when he comes to sniff her.

All of this is a huge improvement from when we had first brought her home and he hissed and growled every time he smelled her under the door, so I know at least he is taking not being the only baby anymore in stride.

What I would like to know:
How can I deal with what seems to be Coco using too much force while playing, and how can I keep Hazle calm while he is coming up to explore her scent?

 

[rubysmama]

I have to start by saying I love their names. And that when they're not being "nuts" they can be shortened to Hazel and Coco.

This article is for introducing kittens to older cats, but might have some tips for you: How To Introduce A Kitten To An Older Cat

The general "rule" is if there is no fur flying or blood, and if the kitten doesn't seem scared, and keeps going back for more fun, then it is probably play. But since Hazel is still pretty young, and seems scared of Coco, I would keep them separate for a while yet, except for under supervision.

Good luck. Keep us updated on their progress. And post pics of them, if you can.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

Yep. As is often the case, rubysmama has beat me to the good stuff. Supervise them for awhile longer. As Hazelnut begins her growth spurt and catches up in size, this will almost certainly become a non-issue.

 

[s0mthinG]

I have to start by saying I love their names. And that when they're not being "nuts" they can be shortened to Hazel and Coco.

This article is for introducing kittens to older cats, but might have some tips for you: How To Introduce A Kitten To An Older Cat

The general "rule" is if there is no fur flying or blood, and if the kitten doesn't seem scared, and keeps going back for more fun, then it is probably play. But since Hazel is still pretty young, and seems scared of Coco, I would keep them separate for a while yet, except for under supervision.

Good luck. Keep us updated on their progress. And post pics of them, if you can.

First off, I appreciate so much that you specifically always reply to my posts very quickly! I have a tendency to be overprotective of my kitties and usually end up overreacting.

She does end up getting a little scared when he starts to play rough and is skittish around him and usually ends up prompting him to pounce. All he wants to do is go up to smell her and then gets swatted and things its play time.

I also got quite a scare while they were playing just a few mins ago. He has almost lost his lower canines and I saw some blood on her face while they were playing and I panicked and broke up the fight. It ended up just being one of the teeth falling out.

I don't really know how to get her to stop being so afraid of him. I feel like the fear is because he keeps jumping on her but he only jumps because of how she reacts to him being there by swatting at him and he thinks its a game.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

Time and a little more size on Hazelnut will take care of most of that. I know it's hard to watch, but things will get better. He doesn't want to hurt her, she just has to have time to really know that.

 

[loveskitty]

the human watching over things should send a message. Sometimes when my kitties were too rough I would gently squeeze the paws and say no. they got the message. Otherwise tire them out playing individually and then see if the aggression peaks the same way if they have already been winded in a workout. Maybe they won't push it to the limit if they have already gone the distance.

 

[loveskitty]

 

[s0mthinG]

So far their meetings are still going very well overall. Coconut is still getting way too excited when they play and doesn't realize that Hazelnut wants him to stop even when she is crying. Other than that the actual play itself looks rougher than it actually is and she usually ends up going back into it for more.

Coconut takes on a more passive stance when they bat at each other's paws. He lays down on the ground with either his belly up or to the side and uses mostly slower more gentle swings. On the other hand, Hazel swings very fast and escalates the play into a wrestling match where after a while she gets done and tries to run away to disengage. However, Coco takes that as a sign that he needs to chase down his prey and that leads to her crying and not being happy.

They are currently playing under the door and seemingly doing a very good job of that. I will post a video here shortly.

 

[s0mthinG]

Here's a video.
At the end she actually ended up circling around me and pouncing at my phone.

 

[loveskitty]

hmnn.

 

[s0mthinG]

This video is taken on the side of the door with Hazelnut. Under these conditions they do their best. She is able to get away from him and he can offer play as much as he wants. Tomorrow I'll get a video of them wrestling and see if I can catch the undesired behavior.

 

[loveskitty]

@Something
yes i want to see how rough is rough.
ah the phone pounce. I know it well. . They don't like how the phone gets in the way of direct admiration!
My kitty used to jump up and paw at it when not I' was taking snaps and she was not in

the mood for posing.

 

[rubysmama]

Kieka can you post your video of your 2 cats "playing" for reference.

 

[Kieka]

Of course rubysmama

This is Link and Rocket in a normal play session. Rocket is very loud but right after this video ends she chases after Link, reversing the roles.

View media item 420658
A lot of it is posturing. It helps to remember that play is also training for fighting so it can seem pretty serious at times. Knowing your cat and their signals can really help. But it did take me a good few months to learn Rockets signs. As long as there is no fur or blood it usually is just play.

 

[s0mthinG]

Thanks for that video Kieka!
It seems that Coco and Hazel play a lot morep physically.
Sorry about the messy room. I didn't expect them to run around so much.


I try not to intervene until she starts crying and can't seem to get away and Coco doesn't stop. As you can see most of the time she is the aggressor bit can't seem to take it in return.

Right after I picked him up in the video I put him outsuou the door and they immediately started playing with each other's paws so she wasn't done with the play time all together.

Also, for a while before this as soon as I got home, I was holding both of them and Coconut started grooming Hazel. She was getting a little upset during that however. So obviously he doesn't hate her or think she's an enemy.

 

[Kieka]

He looks older, I am going to guess he was young when he left Mom and hasn't quite figured out the boundaries. It's common with kittens taken away from Mom before 12 weeks. He will hopefully learn boundaries with time. It might help to add a cat tree or toy tunnel, places she can get away for some space until she's ready to go again. Under the bed works but somewhere else in the room. Also, when he isn't letting her get back up but she hasn't cried out you can get his attention. I say "hey!" loud, just enough that he looks away so she can move. Youre not stopping the game but creating a pause. He will learn that if he pushes too far the game pauses and get better at regulating.

 

[s0mthinG]

He (5 mo) is a bit older than her (2 mo), and he was taken away from his mom too early. He was about 5 weeks when I rescued him. You hit the nail right on the head with the boundry issues, he just doesn't know when to stop. Other than that he's the perfect lap kitty.

I just have one issue, he doesn't respond at all to me raising my voice while he's playing. I can't get his attention while he's so focused on her .

 

[rubysmama]

I've never had 2 cats at the same time, so I'm no judge at all as to the difference between playing and fighting. So I'm glad Kieka is here now with her video and comments.

One thing I wanted to mention though, is to be careful using your hands to separate them. Even if it is just play, they are focused on each other, and your hand could easily get scratched or bitten. And both cat scratches and bites can become infected.

Here's a TCS article with more info: Cat Bites - What Every Cat Owner Needs To Know

Plus one on How To Safely Break Up A Cat Fight that might be helpful.

 

[Kieka]

Just to be clear, it is playing but your boy has boundary issues.

You definitely don't want to break them apart with your hands. There is too big of a risk of injury to yourself, they are animals with tooth and claw no matter how much we love them. For now you can use a broom, mop or any long item that can be put between them or, if you must grab him, make sure you wrap your arms up in a towel, thick blanket or jacket sleeves with no skin showing below your shoulders.

You also need to work on training them to respond. Since you have two name training is hard. My guys do recognize their individual names but they are all a year apart so they were trained separately. You can whistle, clicker or treat bag train them. All are pretty much the same of creating a sound that results in a reward. When they aren't playing make the sound, I prefer whistle because I don't need anything external to do it, and give a treat. Repeat a few times a day. You want to condition them that the whistle (or clicker or opening a specific sounding jar or bag) means treat. Then when he is playing to rough you can do the same and pull him out of it. Just don't give him the treat if he is playing at too rough instead say "hey!" or "bad kitty" then turn physically away, pick up the girl (assuming he stopped) and ignore him for five seconds. After five second repeat the noise and give them both a treat. So you pause the game, ignore him while holding her, and then treat them both to keep the noise tied to reward. Over time you can start saying hey or bad kitty first and see if he respondes. Once he starts responding to bad kitty or hey you should be able to get his attention with just that.

 

[Mamanyt1953]

And this is one of the ways we know that it is just rough play...their ears and whiskers are in a forward position. If this was real aggression, BOTH of their ears would be tight back against their heads, and those oh-so-sensitive whiskers would be flattened to their cheeks.