Epilepsy is treatable. I think your kitty will do much better with the meds.
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Involuntary movement spasms
- Thread starter gpfr88
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- #22
Update: It has been 4 days since starting Phenoleptil (Phenobarbital), the seizures have gone down quite a bit, they do come up sometimes but MUCH less frequently. The drug is making her very tired and sleepy all the time (24/7) and her balance is off. Though I heard this is a side effect of the drug when first starting it and it takes up to 2 weeks for Cats to adapt and for those initial side effects to wear off.
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Thank you so much for this update.
I am so glad that something is working for her.
G gpfr88 ...I think there is nothing wrong with you starting another thread in the "Health" section of the Cat Site...since really...the partial seizures are more of a health issue...than a behaviour one.
Cat Health
I don't know how many members, right now, have cats with epilepsy...but perhaps some members will happen to read your thread, and have some experience with this drug, and how their cats have reacted to it.
I'm still wondering how a 3 year old cat suddenly develops seizures.
From brief reading online, I guess we can never know...since many sites mention "idiopathic"...meaning of "unknown cause".
One of the sites I read, actually mentioned 'rocket fuel' triggering epilepsy in astronauts and then they studied cats.
Sometimes I wonder if it's genetic, or really some type of smells, ...be they from new laundry detergent formulations, or new fabrics venting off chemicals, or even new formulations of everyday products. Heck, even from pollution, I guess,...if a cat is extremely sensitive.
I suppose that is why the Vets can never really know...and try to exclude all the major causes, like diabetes, infections, and brain tumours first.
Still I am very thankful that your cat's MRI showed no tumours and no infections.
and very thankful that at least something is working, and helping her out.
Have you thought about joining the above facebook group...to be getting more detailed information...and support about epilepsy in cats?You may already know about these online groups...but if not...I'll just post the link here (a big thanks to 'white shadow')
Epi-Felines (For Owners of Cats with Epilepsy or Seizures)
Not sure how they answer questions, but it may be good to give it a try.
Sending you more Health Vibes, and good healing thoughts...that your cat gets better quick.
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- #24
If a mod can maybe move this thread to the Cat Health section that would be great.
Sometimes I wonder if they really are seizures. The head bob movement can be triggered by startling sounds. Meanwhile I got clawed in my neck last night while she had a episode.
day 5 starts now, i am going to stick the camera on her to see the frequency of the crisis
Sometimes I wonder if they really are seizures. The head bob movement can be triggered by startling sounds. Meanwhile I got clawed in my neck last night while she had a episode.
day 5 starts now, i am going to stick the camera on her to see the frequency of the crisis
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- #25
Just to quickly add, I was wrong about the frequency of the head bob movements or sudden crisis wake up, I will confirm by filming her all day, but the phenobarbital is sedating her, that she rarely gets up at all during the day to go anywhere or do anything.
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They definitely can. The mods here are simply fantastic.
Usually, you just have to 'flag your own post'...using that 'little flag icon'...and just ask them.
I just really liked your 'condensed version of the videos'...in Post #14.
I was wondering...Does she still "twitch"...right before an episode?
And do her eyes...seem to 'look all around'...like she is 'looking where she is'...immediately afterwards?
Filming her sounds good.
I hate side effects, but what you mentioned before...about the 'up to two weeks' time-frame...does sound similar to what this article mentions, too:
Update on small animal seizure management - dvm360
and this other article does mention another drug as well, ..so at least it's good to know that there are options for your Vet to consider...if needed, ..in the future.
Systematic review of antiepileptic drugs' safety and effectiveness in feline epilepsy - PubMed
Strangely, none of them mentioned 'gabapentin'...which I know I read on the Cat Site, in one of the threads,...from the 'Search' feature.
Hmmm. Maybe because of number of times of dosing, or cost. I really don't know.
Make sure your Vet does know about your cat's sedation levels, and update them on her status...through email, text, or phone,..when you can.
Even if you think you are bothering the Vet,..so what...that's what Vets are there for.
Plus, it's not like you have gone through this before...but for sure, the Vets must have.
Hopefully, the people answering the phones at the Vet clinic are good.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #27
Update:
video from today, the medication is not doing anything except making her zombie like. The movement It appears to happen every 20 mins or so, either awake or sleeping. When awake it is the usual head weave. When sleeping, it tends to be more viole with the sudden wake up, like you see in the first video 2 weeks ago.
To answer the twitching question, it only seems to happen while she is sleeping. The eye thing looking around happens either awake or awaking from sleeping from a episode.
video from today, the medication is not doing anything except making her zombie like. The movement It appears to happen every 20 mins or so, either awake or sleeping. When awake it is the usual head weave. When sleeping, it tends to be more viole with the sudden wake up, like you see in the first video 2 weeks ago.
To answer the twitching question, it only seems to happen while she is sleeping. The eye thing looking around happens either awake or awaking from sleeping from a episode.
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This above video does actually look better than before.
... Less violent and aggressive spasms...than the previous videos.
Indeed there is more head weaving...but I don't notice the sudden and aggressive paw movements...(like before...where she looked like she was trying to reach out to hold onto something).
I know you mentioned that she accidentally clawed you last night...but that for sure was accidental...since she probably was not even aware. (I think I'd let her sleep by my feet...no where near my head...just in case...or maybe her own cat bed on the floor.)
There are not as many open mouth movements, either,...except licking her lips, and swallowing saliva.
(That last part,..kind of got to me, a little,...because she looked like she sneezed....and then fell off the sofa.
But I'm hoping that she jumped...and didn't actually fall. At least it wasn't high from the ground...like a high cat tree or something.
Honestly, I do think the medication is working...but not sure at all about the "zombie like" effects.
Or when those side effects will go away.
I forgot to ask you her name?
And do you go back in a week and a half...for another blood test...to check her blood levels?
(you are probably sleeping now, since time-zone differences and such,...so only answer on your next update...when you can.)
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #29
Her name is Ouveà, I her to our feet at night but she always crawls back to our heads in the middle of the night, it has always been her preferred spot to sleep.
We contacted her breeder the other day and asked if there is any seizure like symptoms that run in her family, but she said no she has never experienced anything like that in her lineage.
She goes back for a blood test on the 19th of January. To me the only thing different is she is heavily sedated, but the movements are still happening at regular intervals like before. The sedation is the only thing keeping things less violent, but the underlying cause is still happening.
We our going to contact the local veterinarian school this week and seek a second opinion.
We contacted her breeder the other day and asked if there is any seizure like symptoms that run in her family, but she said no she has never experienced anything like that in her lineage.
She goes back for a blood test on the 19th of January. To me the only thing different is she is heavily sedated, but the movements are still happening at regular intervals like before. The sedation is the only thing keeping things less violent, but the underlying cause is still happening.
We our going to contact the local veterinarian school this week and seek a second opinion.
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That is a pretty name.
Yes, it makes sense that she would want to sleep where she always feels the most comfortable.
(Our cats always have preferred spots...and if we place them somewhere...they move.
It has to be 'their idea'...and 'their choice'.
)I think some of them like to sleep by our heads...because of how us humans breathe, warmth, or it reminds them of when they were small kittens.
That was a great idea... to contact her breeder.
I know I am asking a lot...but could you maybe videotape Ouvea....when she is just normally Playing, or eating, or drinking water.
(no rush on this...just whenever you have the time.)
Then you can compare it to the times,...where she is having the episodes...and also show the Vets...that she does not always have them. Or maybe there is a pattern.
You said that she does not have any 'episodes' at these times...so I was just wondering if ...when she is 'active'...and her 'brain neurons' are firing...(in an active state),...if she shows any 'small or very subtle' changes...in her whiskers, ear movements, or balance movements...at all.
The medication is supposed to 'raise the seizure threshold' higher,...so that no 'break through seizures' happen.
(online, did say...it takes a while to reach therapeutic levels...in the cat's system.)
Articles also mentioned that the 'electrical activity in the brain' is different...right before going into ''REM sleep"...but that with some forms of epilepsy...the 'electrical neurons' continue to fire...and sweep through other parts of the brain...causing an episode...or reaction.
(Sometimes when I re-watch the videos,...it still reminds me of Vertigo, or inner ear problems, Vestibular,...but that would happen all the time...and not just when resting, or sleeping.)
Excellent idea.
Reaching out to a Vet school...where they have probably seen more cases...and can also contact other veterinary schools...that they have contact with...does make the most sense.
Plus, getting a second opinion is also wise.
If you can, ask them about other medications, too,...such as clonazepam.
(one of the comment sections, that I read, underneath an article...had ordinary people comments...and someone mentioned this drug, too. (I should have taken a screen shot...to be able to cite it for you. Since I forget now, which site it was, after reading and browsing many articles.)
Even the scientific articles get me all confused...since some mention...percentages that go into "Remission"...with medications, and some go into 'remission'...without medications. So I was just not at all sure...how they get those numbers...and why the studies in cats is so small. (again, I should bookmark them, so that I can cite them, here.)
(sorry about the long responses...I just get a little hopeful and excited...if somehow...something could work.)
I think the goal would be to go into "remission"...but not sure how realistic that is.
I just read the thread and agree that you are doing the right thing to take your lovely baby to the university teaching hospital. At this point, you have done so much for her; if it were me I would continue on to this consultation.
Remember all tests, results, etc from any place else are yours, so take them with you or have them sent.
As for phenobarbital, it is a frequently used med, and a reliable one in the long run, in dogs and cats. I did have a dog who was on it years ago, although responses of dogs and cats to medications are not always the same. When it is used, assuming that this will be the determination of what your cat needs, it has to be given at the exact correct dose for the animal. Your vet would monitor this; I am not suggesting that you are not giving the proper dosage. The lack of coordination, seeming woozy or drunk, are common at the beginning. So is sleepiness. This usually works out as the animal adjusts to it or the dose is regulated. It has to be administered exactly as you were told. If you work, devise a schedule with the vet that fits your work schedule. If, for example, you were told every 12 hours, it means exactly that. No, really. Not close. Exactly. Never decide to take the cat off of the med yourself. It has to be weaned off. Even if you find out in the near future that it is not the medication that is needed because there is a whole new dx, ask the vet about weaning the cat off. When phenobarb is not administered according to schedule, or if it is stopped suddenly, the animal can have a fatal, final seizure. I knew of a dog where this happened once.
Please keep us posted as to what you are told at your next visit with the new vet.
Remember all tests, results, etc from any place else are yours, so take them with you or have them sent.
As for phenobarbital, it is a frequently used med, and a reliable one in the long run, in dogs and cats. I did have a dog who was on it years ago, although responses of dogs and cats to medications are not always the same. When it is used, assuming that this will be the determination of what your cat needs, it has to be given at the exact correct dose for the animal. Your vet would monitor this; I am not suggesting that you are not giving the proper dosage. The lack of coordination, seeming woozy or drunk, are common at the beginning. So is sleepiness. This usually works out as the animal adjusts to it or the dose is regulated. It has to be administered exactly as you were told. If you work, devise a schedule with the vet that fits your work schedule. If, for example, you were told every 12 hours, it means exactly that. No, really. Not close. Exactly. Never decide to take the cat off of the med yourself. It has to be weaned off. Even if you find out in the near future that it is not the medication that is needed because there is a whole new dx, ask the vet about weaning the cat off. When phenobarb is not administered according to schedule, or if it is stopped suddenly, the animal can have a fatal, final seizure. I knew of a dog where this happened once.
Please keep us posted as to what you are told at your next visit with the new vet.
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Hi
G
gpfr88
I found this thread here:Head jerking to one side
It has videos...that are similar to your cat...but not actually the same.
Tell me what you think.
The update is on page three...Post # 54.
"...Like I said before he was on Keppra and Phenobarbital which are seizure medicines, plus he was briefly on Midazolam which is a sedative. And then they put him on Prednisolone which is a steroid, in case he had inflammation in his brain. Then finally they tried the vitamin B shots and that was when he suddenly got better. Maybe it was a mix of 2 or more things, I wish I knew for sure! "
It might be worth asking your Vet, or the University vets,...about these medications...especially the Vitamin B injection.
And if your Vet thinks the Vitamin B shot..is worth a try...you can easily do that injection at home.
There is an excellent video, posted by 'Fundamentally Feline called "Administering Subcutaneous Injections".
It shows you how easy it is to give Vitamin B injections...at home.
I found this thread here:Head jerking to one side
It has videos...that are similar to your cat...but not actually the same.
Tell me what you think.
The update is on page three...Post # 54.
"...Like I said before he was on Keppra and Phenobarbital which are seizure medicines, plus he was briefly on Midazolam which is a sedative. And then they put him on Prednisolone which is a steroid, in case he had inflammation in his brain. Then finally they tried the vitamin B shots and that was when he suddenly got better. Maybe it was a mix of 2 or more things, I wish I knew for sure! "
It might be worth asking your Vet, or the University vets,...about these medications...especially the Vitamin B injection.
And if your Vet thinks the Vitamin B shot..is worth a try...you can easily do that injection at home.
There is an excellent video, posted by 'Fundamentally Feline called "Administering Subcutaneous Injections".
It shows you how easy it is to give Vitamin B injections...at home.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #33
Update: I have been filming Ouveà everyday, analysing the footage and marking down when the movements happen. She is still heavily sedated from the Phenobarbital. She doesn't want to play or do anything, just sleep 24/7.
She still does the head movement often. When she is awake, it is pronounced like in the early videos I posted, like a boxer dodging punches.
When she is sleeping, you can barely notice it and it is very difficult to see it on the videos, it wakes her up. It appears the sedation is making the sleeping ones super tame.
Thanks for the link above on the "head jerking to one side" postings. There experience seems to be very similar, negative results on MRI's and blood work etc. The last cat from Romania in the video appears to be very similar movement and reaction. They mentioned Vitamin B injection in treating the cat solved the problem of Myoclonus. Funny enough, our blood work did not test for Vitamin B results. I am going to talk to our vet about this to see if Myoclonus could be the culprit. Afterall, Ouveà has always twitched in her sleep (whiskers, paws etc) which is an effect of Myoclonus I believe.
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If you do ask about the vitamin B...also ask your Vet...if they did a 'thyroid test'...since that is usually an 'extra test'...needed to check T4 levels.
I think the glucose test...is what actually checks for Diabetes...but not sure...if it is separate or not.
(Here, in ontario, canada,...we can ask our vets to email us,...all the test results...so we keep them at home...for our own records.
See if where you live...the Vet will do that.
Since you did pay for all the tests...and they do belong to you. (fionasmom...mentioned that above))
Plus, it's good to have a copy...in case of emergencies...if you have to go see another Vet.
I think the glucose test...is what actually checks for Diabetes...but not sure...if it is separate or not.
(Here, in ontario, canada,...we can ask our vets to email us,...all the test results...so we keep them at home...for our own records.
See if where you live...the Vet will do that.
Since you did pay for all the tests...and they do belong to you. (fionasmom...mentioned that above))
Plus, it's good to have a copy...in case of emergencies...if you have to go see another Vet.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #35
Update:
She is still doing her crisis's as usual. This morning we took her to the local veterinarian school to see a neurologist. After viewing the video compilation of her, they said this is a form of epilepsy and they have seen much worse in other animals before. We have reduced her dosage of phenobarbital to half over the last few days and stopping it completely today. They took some blood today to do another blood test.
Tomorrow she returns to the veterinarian school again to do a EEG to see where in her brain that is trigging the epilepsy to see which type it is and how it is being triggered.
We live in France, and yes we get copies of all her tests. Here is a page from her MRI scan from a week and a half ago.
She is still doing her crisis's as usual. This morning we took her to the local veterinarian school to see a neurologist. After viewing the video compilation of her, they said this is a form of epilepsy and they have seen much worse in other animals before. We have reduced her dosage of phenobarbital to half over the last few days and stopping it completely today. They took some blood today to do another blood test.
Tomorrow she returns to the veterinarian school again to do a EEG to see where in her brain that is trigging the epilepsy to see which type it is and how it is being triggered.
We live in France, and yes we get copies of all her tests. Here is a page from her MRI scan from a week and a half ago.
Thank you for the update! While the episodes are continuing, it sounds as if the veterinary school is on the road to determining what exactly is going on. Not using the phenobarbital if it is not needed or helping is a good move. Please let us know how this progresses.
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Do you by any chance have a 'running water fountain' in your home?
Can you ask the neurologist about FARS in cats?
(Feline Audiogenic Reflex Seizures)
Feline Audiogenic Reflex Seizures (FARS) | International Cat Care
(Thank you for posting the update, and including the MRI scans.
I've never seen an MRI scan...of a cat's brain and spinal cord.)(I'm hoping that is what encephale means)
The contrast, layers, and detail are amazing.
(Cannot read it, but still so interesting to see.)
Can you ask the neurologist about FARS in cats?
(Feline Audiogenic Reflex Seizures)
Feline Audiogenic Reflex Seizures (FARS) | International Cat Care
(Thank you for posting the update, and including the MRI scans.
I've never seen an MRI scan...of a cat's brain and spinal cord.)(I'm hoping that is what encephale means)
The contrast, layers, and detail are amazing.
(Cannot read it, but still so interesting to see.)
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #38
Update:
so 2 weeks ago we took her to the vet school and they did some tests with a EEG in front of some students and recorded the epilepsy.
She has been on phenobarbital since, however there has been no improvement. She has not gotten any worse either, stable, unchanged.
However this evening we got a call from the vet who did the MRI and spinal fluid test earlier this month and they found she has FCoV aka: Feline Coronavirus which in itself is not worrisome since it is really common in most cats. However they were unable to conclude if she has FIP (Feline Infectious Peritonitis) which would be a death sentence if it was. (yes we know about the black market drug GS-441524 out of China that could treat FIP)
Since we told them that her condition has been unchanged, no improvements, they are going to do another test for FIP.
so 2 weeks ago we took her to the vet school and they did some tests with a EEG in front of some students and recorded the epilepsy.
She has been on phenobarbital since, however there has been no improvement. She has not gotten any worse either, stable, unchanged.
However this evening we got a call from the vet who did the MRI and spinal fluid test earlier this month and they found she has FCoV aka: Feline Coronavirus which in itself is not worrisome since it is really common in most cats. However they were unable to conclude if she has FIP (Feline Infectious Peritonitis) which would be a death sentence if it was. (yes we know about the black market drug GS-441524 out of China that could treat FIP)
Since we told them that her condition has been unchanged, no improvements, they are going to do another test for FIP.
Thank you for updating....you are trying your hardest to help her and I am glad that she is no worse with the phenobarbital, but sorry for no improvement. Please keep us posted as you get new results.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #40
Update again:
We just got off the phone with the cat neurologist who has been treating her. She has the spinal fluid results and says not to worry what the other vet said, it is not Feline Infectious Peritonitis as she would be showing major symptoms by now if it was, plus there are no lesions on her brain as per the MRI.
The neurologist is going to change up her epilepsy medication to Keppra (Levetiracetam) next week if still no changes from Phenobarbital (we are waiting for the 2 week mark before switching)
We just got off the phone with the cat neurologist who has been treating her. She has the spinal fluid results and says not to worry what the other vet said, it is not Feline Infectious Peritonitis as she would be showing major symptoms by now if it was, plus there are no lesions on her brain as per the MRI.
The neurologist is going to change up her epilepsy medication to Keppra (Levetiracetam) next week if still no changes from Phenobarbital (we are waiting for the 2 week mark before switching)
