Introducing cats with issues in a small space...

[lilin]

Hey folks. I need your help. I'm going to attempt to introduce my kitty Pia, and my dad's cat Kittiot. He passed away last month, and he had concerns about how well Pia would do with her, and I thought I had found her a new home.

For some background, you can scan my thread here.
[thread="273372"]Cat Needs Home In Minneapolis  [/thread]
It didn't work out. Apparently this guy was yet another one who believes cats are fuzzy goldfish, and he got annoyed when it became apparent that she wanted affection and attention. She's a bit unsettled, obviously. She just lost the the longest-standing home she's ever had. But he just doesn't get it.

I've decided I'm taking her. I can't just madly try to find the next best adopter, or put an adult cat with issues in a shelter, and wonder what happened to her.

Some updates on the way her behavior has changed since I posted that last thread.

I believe much of her defensive behavior was due to being able to smell my father's cancer. Cancer, by the way, smells a bit like rotten food (humans can smell it too, once it gets bad enough -- I could smell it in the last week of his life).

She is less picky about food. She is still high-energy, but she is substantially more affectionate and extremely easy to handle. She seems to have lost all traces of aggression. When my dad adopted her, she was practically semi-feral.

Apparently he did wonders for her, although unfortunately he didn't know that at the time.

Pia and Kittiot are around the same age -- between 2 and 3. Both have bad histories. Pia was neglected and harassed, which made her anxious and submissive. Kittiot has had a slew of abandonments and was almost entirely without human contact for an entire year, which has made her a little bit socially oblivious, which combined with her stronger personality, can make her overly intense.

Here are my concerns.

1. I have never introduced cats.

2. I don't have tons of space. I have a one bedroom that's about 575 square feet with blocky rooms.

3. Kittiot is a tree dweller and Pia is a bush dweller (I'll come back to why this matters).

3. While Kittiot is not aggressive, she is slightly alpha and high energy, and also fairly big. Pia is submissive, a couch potato, and quite small.

Both cats have been around other cats and done fine. Kittiot actually did quite well. But my concern is this: Pia needs love more than she even needs food. She's been here a year and she's calmed down, but she still wants lots of affection and seems slightly insecure about its availability. This is part of why I think she'd do well with another kitty in the long run, but I am worried Kittiot's bigger personality will sort of crowd her out and she won't feel at liberty to seek attention. If I had to pick the perfect kitty companion for Pia, it would be a more mellow cat with less of a history.

Blocking off separate areas without denying Pia her usual spaces is kind of a problem. I have a big square living room, a bedroom, and really not much else. The bathroom is tiny. I won't put a cat in there for any stretch of time. I had thought of dividing the living room, and while this might stop Pia, it won't stop Kittiot. I have wall climbers, which are beyond Pia's ambition if she can't get on the couch, but not Kittiot's. Kittiot will go up the wall from the ground no problem. I don't think dividing the living room is realistic.

So this is what I was thinking.

Pia seeks attention the most when I'm at my desk. That's where her perch is, and where most of her lap time is. She sometimes does join me in bed, but she doesn't cuddle up to me per se.

Kittiot is apparently a bed cuddler. She wants to be right up on you.

So although I don't think Pia would be happy about it, I have been thinking of using the bedroom as Kittiot's space instead.

How does this sound? What else can I do to avoid threatening Pia's space as much as realistically possible? Heck, how do I even start this?

Kittiot has lost her home three times now. She's really a very sweet cat, and I know I can work with her. I just don't want Pia to regress for me doing so. I think if I could make her feel non-threatened by the new cat, she and Kittiot might actually get along. They're both lovers. But I'm worried about it.

Any advice?

 

[42cattier]

There is only as much as you can do, either they would go along or not.

I was in similar situation recently, tried to introduce the second cat (as appeared later he was a climber and fighter, not lover) to a resident cat. It didn't work out, new cat continued to try attack older cat and drive him away from home. Had to return new cat to a shelter

What you may try: supervised introduction, some cats go along within one day; doorway/stairway temporary divider made from 3 baby gates, one on top of the other, horizontal bars facing away from climbing cat, top part blocked by hanging horizontal roll (tied rolled large towel) to create negative angle for a climber, pillow blocking the rest of the space. Had to be disassebled and reassembled when one had to use kitchen or bathroom. Or screened door, if home desigh allows. Using Feeliway diffusers.

Keeping new cat closed in a room worked only when somebody was there with him, otherwise he meowed laudly until freed, and we have neigbours, not acceptable.

But maybe, just maybe, they will go along just fine...

 

[lilin]

 
There is only as much as you can do, either they would go along or not.

I was in similar situation recently, tried to introduce the second cat (as appeared later he was a climber and fighter, not lover) to a resident cat. It didn't work out, new cat continued to try attack older cat and drive him away from home. Had to return new cat to a shelter

What you may try: supervised introduction, some cats go along within one day; doorway/stairway temporary divider made from 3 baby gates, one on top of the other, horizontal bars facing away from climbing cat, top part blocked by hanging horizontal roll (tied rolled large towel) to create negative angle for a climber, pillow blocking the rest of the space. Had to be disassebled and reassembled when one had to use kitchen or bathroom. Or screened door, if home desigh allows. Using Feeliway diffusers.

Keeping new cat closed in a room worked only when somebody was there with him, otherwise he meowed laudly until freed, and we have neigbours, not acceptable.

But maybe, just maybe, they will go along just fine...

I'm worried about this too. Kittiot's main "problem" behavior is that she cries when shut out of the bedroom, according to the guy who has her right now.

It's pretty straight-forward why she does this. She was locked in a basement for a year before my dad adopted her, and she's probably really insecure from the combination of remembering that and losing her human recently. But I too have neighbors, and they even stuck a post-it to my door one time when I slept through my alarm for 15 minutes. If she was yowling all day, I'd probably be in trouble.

There's so many ways this could go wrong...

My father's closest friend emailed me last night that another mutual friend of theirs might be looking for a kitty. She was not only a good friend of his, but also a cat lover with several of her own, so if she suggestions someone to me, it must be someone she trusts.

I'm going to follow that up and make sure he's right for the kind of cat Kittiot is. If I adopt her out again, I want zero chance that she won't be able to stay (barring something like what happened to her last owner, my dad...). If I don't think he'll stick with her no matter what, I'm taking her.

 

[stephenq]

Hi @Lilin

I would never lock my resident cat out of the bedroom.  It sends a very bad message.  Imagine you have a 3 year old child who likes to (and is allowed) sleep in your bedroom. Then you have a new baby and the toddler is locked out. Ouch.

There are several steps to a successful introduction, the goal being BFFs, not enemies or angry at you (especially the resident cat).  A careful introduction raises the stress level in incremental steps, allowing both cats, especially the resident cat time to acclimate to the stressor before being introduced to the next level.  You are going to move the "bar" closer and closer to the resident cat until the final step, a supervised face-to-face, becomes  a fender bender and not a car crash.

Step one: Complete separation, putting the new cat is a small room like a bathroom with food, litter and water.  Do not let the cats see each other - too much stress too soon.  Give the new cat time to adjust.  Give both cats time (a week+/-) to get used to this.  They will know each other is there.  Start feeding the resident cat nearer to the door, adjusting daily until he is at the door eating. Do voluntary scent exchange by rubbing the new cat's cheeks on a sock and then offering the sock as a gift to the resident. Don't force him to smell the sock, don't rub it on him. Observe his behavior and allow it.   Rub a clean sock on his cheeks and offer it to the new cat.  Continue to do this but never force either cat to interact with the other cat's sock.

When they are reasonably calm with everything in step one go to:

Step Two:  Allow the cats to see each other.  Two baby gates stacked on top of each other in the open door is a great way.  Cracking the door open and blocking it into position so they can't get through the door is another way.  With many cats the stress of this will make them revert, but it would have been much worse if you had started with this step.  Continue as if this was step one, but now with them seeing each other.  When they are both calm, no hissing or growling, you can go to:

Step Three: After eating meals and feeling satisfied (full stomach = less aggressive) you can start to do brief supervised introductions face to face.  Watch their body language and reactions and increase their time together until you are confident that they can manage on their own.

In General, treat the resident cat like he is King.  Don't do things to make him jealous. Don't discipline either cat for showing aggression, punishing them for what they feel is a normal behavior (and is normal for them) just raises the stress.  And follow your cats' lead on the speed of the introduction, there are no rules other than to listen to them.

http://www.thecatsite.com/a/introducing-cats-to-cats

http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/cat-behavior/introducing-your-cat-new-cat

http://www.catbehaviorassociates.com/a-simple-little-trick-to-use-during-new-cat-introductions/

 

[lilin]

Hey folks. Thanks so much for all your advice.

I just couldn't stand putting the new cat in the bathroom. It is a tiny, tiny bathroom. My closets are twice the size. And for a big, highly energetic cat, potentially for weeks? Seriously, it's so small that there would be nowhere that her food bowls could be more than a couple feet from her litter box. It's that small. I don't know why, since my apartment isn't that small and the living room and bedroom are huge, but for some reason they made the bathroom tiny anyway!

So what I did is I set up Pia (resident kitty) in the half of the apartment with my bedroom (also bathroom side) and Kittiot (new kitty) in the living room side (also with the kitchen, which is about the same size as my bathroom -- why so tiny!?)

Kittiot's space is slightly bigger and I feel kind of bad about that, but Pia is much less hyper and she has the bedroom -- the crowning territory, and also the room I started her out in when I adopted her, so hopefully that's ok.

Kittiot came here today, and so far, not as bad as I expected. There's been no hissing at the door or other aggressive signs. Kittiot is much more interested in exploring. Pia has been sticking to my bed and not coming too close to the door, but she's reasonably relaxed and starts purring like a motorboat as soon as I touch her, so that's not bad.

I'm more nervous than either of them I think -- every cat person I've told that I'm introducing two adult female cats kind of smirks and says, "That should be interesting." Not very calming!

I got Feliway and sprayed a bit. Kittiot seems calm enough, but unfortunately it actually seems to freak Pia out. She's calmer 3 hours later with Kittiot here than she was right after I sprayed, before Kittiot got here. So I won't be spraying again on her side -- don't know why, but it doesn't seem to go down well with her.

I've moved the stuff Pia sleeps on into my room and re-arranged a bit to give her more "her" spots. I've taken out some of my dad's clothes and laid them down on resting spots set up for Kittiot.

So wish me luck, and any other advice you have is much appreciated.

ETA: I think I have mentioned that Kittiot is quite poorly socialized, and while friendly, her behavior is hard to understand. Her main animal exposure is dogs, and she actually mimics them a bit.

She's been growling at me a little, but she seems perfectly friendly while she does it. When she growls, I do all the typical stuff -- look away, make sure she has an out, etc. She doesn't try to go anywhere, and doesn't show other bodily signs of aggression. She just growls, and otherwise seems fine.

Is it possible growls mean nothing from her? Maybe a dog sound she's imitating? I don't really know how to read her.

 

[stephenq]

Ok that's a good start!  Try and follow the steps listed and pay attention to what your cats are telling you.  And where are you spraying the feliway?  Your one cat's reaction is unusual.

 

[lilin]

 

[lilin]

Well, I felt pretty good when I got them both eating right next to the door with no problem. I also did scent exchange to Pia with no problem.

But tonight, Pia is digging her paws under the door (there's a slight gap, and no matter what I use to block it, she pulls it away), and much to my surprise, she is being the aggressive one, hissing and growling. Kittiot seems to be submitting, when I check on the other side. Quite the shock, since Kittiot is nearly twice her size. But I suppose they don't know that yet.

Is this a bad sign or just normal? Anything I can do?

Oh dear...

 

[stephenq]

Give them time.  Continue with voluntary scent exchange. Go slow, one step at a time. Don't rush them.  Follow all the steps in increments. Get them used to each new step. Take it at their pace.

 

[lilin]

 
Give them time.  Continue with voluntary scent exchange. Go slow, one step at a time. Don't rush them.  Follow all the steps in increments. Get them used to each new step. Take it at their pace.

Trying my best. I know logically I should expect some hissing and swatting at the door at some point, and probably again at the sight introduction through the baby gate, but it makes me nervous when I see it.

They obviously can't get at each other, but I couldn't sleep until they'd walked away from it. Don't want anyone getting hurt, and don't want Kittiot to have to move again.

I guess on the plus side, if there is one, Pia is not quite as submissive as I chalked her up for -- or perhaps just with people. I certainly don't want her being aggressive, but I was concerned she'd get kind of pushed to the side by Kittiot's boisterousness. Don't think there's any risk of that! Kittiot is definitely the one backing down. But I hope they can reach an agreement.

 

[stephenq]

It's quite unlikely that they would hurt each other.  Most of it is posturing.  :-)

 

[lilin]

Pia is defending her side of the door quite fiercely. Kittiot won't get too close to it now. Whenever Kittiot hears Pia scratching under the door, she goes quite alert and backs off it, even if she's not that close.

They continue to eat at the door -- although Kittiot needs encouraging to do this -- and I haven't seen any arguments break out while they're actually eating. But Kittiot is now spending more of her time under the couch than on the cupboards, where her tree-dwelling nature would like to be.

I'm going to try space-swapping and see if maybe that helps chill things out a little.

 

[lilin]

Well, I managed to switch the cats around by myself without anyone dying -- I don't think they saw each other. I put Pia in the bathroom while I switched Kittiot to the bedroom, then back again, since Kittiot tends to stay away from the door more than Pia does.

They were both pretty wary. Kittiot entered Pia's half with a hiss. Pia stayed low to the ground for a while. Both focused on each other's litter boxes (though as far as I'm aware didn't mark them) and resting spaces. I let them sniff it out for a couple hours. In the end, they were still wary, but a little more relaxed and their tails chilling out.

Pia was cheek marking some things. Cheek marks are friendly smells, right?

I will definitely need a second baby gate for the face-to-face introduction. Kittiot can clear the one I have in about half a second. She actually let herself out of the bedroom by doing that (fortunately Pia was in the bathroom for the exchange, as I said).

 

[MoochNNoodles]

Slow and steady. 

  The cheek marking should help their smells mingle.  It's normal for this process to take a while.

 

[stephenq]

Keep at it, we're rooting for you all the way!

 

[lilin]

I have not heard any significant arguing through the door in a day or two. A little chest-beating from Pia, but nothing as serious as that first night. Kittiot has progressed to curiosity about the lion on the other side of the door and would really like to meet her for some reason. Pia isn't mad at me, which is the most I'm asking of her at this point. I think I am about as far as I am going to get without them getting a tiny bit of face time. Pia will realize Kittiot is deferent to her majesty, and Kittiot will realize Pia is not a lion.

And so, after one more space-swap, it is time. And I am prepared. The Great Cat Wall of Minneapolis is complete, and I am now at least slightly less than terrified that Kittiot will hop the gate.

IMAG1501.jpg

• lilin
• May 14, 2014

On D-day... I am probably going to get hurt.

 

[micknsnicks2mom]

feliway should be sprayed 20 minutes before letting cats near items that have been sprayed with it. the instructions for use for feliway spray state this. this may have something to do with pia's reaction to it...?  did you spray the feliway with pia watching, in the same room? if so, her reaction might have been just to the actual spraying of it and not the feliway itself...? may or may not be helpful, but maybe something to consider.

 

[stephenq]

@mickNsnicks2mom   Her cat Pia had a really bad reaction to feliway so I'm not sure she should go that route again.

@Lilin AMAZING photo, you are READY for some face time. 

We're waiting with baited breath!

 

[feralvr]

On D-day... I am probably going to get hurt.

HELLO Lillin !!!!!!! I am so sorry to hear about your dad and did some posting in your other thread. Seems that Pia is just meant to be yours and I can promise, well :lol3:, almost promise that all will be well with very, very, very slow introductions.

Try not to think of it that way - D-day !!! :lol3: Expect the opposite and don't force anything, let the cats tell YOU when they are ready for the next phase. This could be days, weeks, months. I love, love the cat wall. :bigthumb: Another option is to install a screen door. I also have used a very tall plexi glass slider. Not the easiest to slide back and forth but it works well for me. Cats can see each other but not sniff nose to nose.

The process of introducing cats is always best done by scent swapping and hearing each other first and then visual sighting without contact. This stage can take a long time and I never allow cats to engage in any form of closeness until they are already visually acclimated. Taking the newbie into the resident cats territory and putting the resident into the newbie' territory is also highly recommended which I think you are already doing. Your doing a great job so far but I always, always tell people to turn off the clock! If the "guardian" rushes the intros and the first interactions are aggressive then the long term relationship between the cats may be damaged. What are a few weeks or a couple of months compared to the lifetime together - years. We, the guardians, have to make sure that the initial beginning stages of their life together are done with careful monitoring. I think you are doing just fine - small space or not - it still needs to be done with careful judgment and always stay one step ahead of the cats. Try to think like a cat. :lol3:

Other tips - brush both cats with the same brush. Rub both cats with the same sock and then leave the sock in each other territory Or in their bed. Swap out beds from each other. Also - feed them outside the door from each other, play with one and then the other behind the safety of that barrier but where they can see you interacting happily. Give pets and cuddles where each can see you but within their safe zones. Does that make sense?? :lol3: A bit tired tonight......

 

[lilin]

 
@mickNsnicks2mom   Her cat Pia had a really bad reaction to feliway so I'm not sure she should go that route again.

@Lilin AMAZING photo, you are READY for some face time. 

We're waiting with baited breath!

Ok... I'm discouraged now...

Did the space swap. Pia snooped around for a bit. Then went to the door with a slightly fluffed tail. I was sitting a few feet away just talking softly to her.

She lunged at the door, and as she tore away from it, she took a swipe at me too and got me through two layers of clothes. Whoa. And although her tail isn't as big, she's still walking around like a little cat bomb.

This is the fraidy cat who would sooner hide under my couch than be confrontational. I didn't even know she had a bad side! I called her my bunny rabbit cat because she was so polite and timid. Well, not anymore.

I don't know how to take that. Is it just being freaked out by how much Kittiot smell there is? Will she calm down if I leave Kittiot out of sight longer or will it help her to see Kittiot's obviously submissive posture to her? I don't know. Part of me thinks seeing Kittiot back down might help her. But I just don't know.

And Kittiot, the cat my dad was so worried about dominating Pia, is perfectly happy to let her have any terms she wants.