Injured Kitten, Danger From Wildlife, Pics Included

[moxiewild]

StefanZ - I work at a sanctuary and rehab - primarily with injured and orphaned native Texas wildlife, and I personally care for the mammal side of things (not a big fan of the birds!). Occasionally I have bottle fed exotics, but most of our exotics are already adults, since they usually come from closed down zoos, labs, and private ownership.

I volunteered there for a very long time before being paid to do it! The money and the hours are pretty terrible, but it's obviously incredibly rewarding, as I'm sure most people here already know. The best advantage about being paid to do it was honestly just that it allowed me to spend more of my time doing it.

Is there a specific brand of an IR heat lamp you would suggest? Most of the ones I'm coming across online are very big (and expensive)!

Is the glucose sugar used instead of something like kitten glop? Or would that just be part of a kitten glop recipe?

We're working on the raw goats milk already, actually! We usually always have local raw goat's milk on hand since I give it to our seniors, but our co-op has been out the past two weeks. I emailed them directly this time within an hour of spotting the kitten, so just waiting to hear back from them.

We have Meyenberg brand of powdered goat milk (what I gave the kitten today), and I also have a canister of Esbilac goats milk. Not ideal, but a decent back up!

 

[StefanZ]

The idea of IR-heating lamp I bough from one of our forumistes just one year ago. Whom got 10 prematures at once, and managed to salve them all! She used such a lamp used for chickens. However, I know many rheumatics use smaller IR-heating lamps. There are also small bulbs for use in terraires.
I think its a nice idea in many situations, but not least, with prematures and weak kittens. They wont get chilled off while you handfeed them...
So use what is conventient and what you have, but its practical if its moveable.
It doesnt need to be the sole warming source, but gives a plus in some situations. As handfeeding. While in nest you can still use the usual heating pads if so is.

OK. Glucose sugar / dextrose isnt instead for kibble, even if it can be used as extra.
Its more for emergency measures, alike: make home made pedialyte where you have glucose sugar, minerale salts, water, and a trifle baking soda if you want...

This pedialyte is useful not least for seemingly dying cats and kittens. where the digestation has stopped. The trick is to give such glucose containing pedialyte. Pedialyte goes straight into blood without being digested... its no remedy, if the kitten is dying so its dying, but it may buy you time...
Same pedialyte can be given for cold kittens and kittens cats and dogs rescued from long starvation. Both as fluid and as some nourishment...
Cold kittens their digestion isnt working either.
And totally starved out animals shouldnt eat much, small portions the first days...

This isnt no nourishment to grow on, but you can survive several days on this alone if enough desperate... Buys you time.

Same pedialyte can be given in all diarrhea cases. Mainly here to compensate salt losses.

Last, but not least: weak kittens, or kittens with low blood sugar content, whom become lethargic.
A quick remedy which often works is to smear on the gums and lips such glucose + water....

If you dont have real glucose, its possible to use karo or honey, which most american rescuers do.

But real glucose is better. [Also, real glucose is barely sweet. So you can easily increase the dose if you need or you want, the taste doesnt become bothering sweet. While honey and karo are very sweet because they contain fructose, and may easily become too sweet]

Its easy to find in every shop in Sweden, but more difficult in USA.

I have heard shops for making beer may have this.
Also bakeries usually do have this...

 

[golondrina]

Hi moxiewild, reading through your posts I have realized that you are under the wrong impression that you have to separate Socks from her baby in order to better socialize him. Actually if it is safe to separate kittens from their moms at 8 weeks of age from a health point of view, on the other hand it is highly recommended that they stay with their mom until they are 12 weeks old or more for them to learn better social skills from her. This facilitates successful adoptions.

 

[Kieka]

The separating kittens early is only if Mom isn't social. Otherwise kittens will learn fear of humans from Mom and withdraw from humans. When it is a choice between a friendly adoptable kitten and a kitten who stays with Mom until 12 weeks old but learns to fear people, I will take a socialized kitten. While humans aren't the best teachers, other cats in the home or other kittens can substitute for Mom or a well versed human can help.

It sounds like Socks is a smart one. As long as she is somewhat social with humans it is fine to leave her with the kitten. If the kitten gets less social with people though a separation may be required.

 

[Norachan]

It sounds like Socks is a smart one. As long as she is somewhat social with humans it is fine to leave her with the kitten.

Most of my cats were feral born. Their mothers couldn't be touched, but would come and sit quite close to me while they were being fed. The kittens learned to trust me by following their mothers for food, then eventually came indoors when they were around four months old.

The kittens are all full grown and very tame now, I even managed to re-home three litters.

Some feral mothers even become tamer watching their kittens being petted and played with. Every cat is different when it comes to socialising. There are no hard and fast rules, but I don't think you need to worry about separating them for now.

You can get Socks spayed while she is still nursing. How do they do the spay where you are? Belly or flank? A flank spay won't cause any problems if a cat is still nursing, a belly spay might make nursing uncomfortable but as she only has one kitten it won't be so bad.

 

[golondrina]

The case of a mother who isn't herself social and could teach her kittens to fear humans is of course a case in itself to be taken into consideration. But general speaking I have always understood and learned here at TCS that leaving the kittens with their mom 12 weeks will ensure that queens will teach their young important skills that we cannot duplicate as humans. And that in addition to health concerns, behavioral issues can arise in kittens who were removed from their mothers too early in life. Also that mother cats teach their kittens' lifelong lessons and give off calming pheromones. Kittens who left their mothers too soon may have trouble grooming themselves; play too rough or have other behavioral problems.

 

[moxiewild]

Okay... I was hoping to keep the kitten with mom for a full 12 weeks and somehow socialize the kitten simultaneously during that period.

When I was talking about separation, I just meant temporary, periodic separation throughout the day to handle and interact with the kitten for a bit and then put her back in with mom. I'm a bit confused on whether that's possible, or if it boils down to a choice between separating before 12 weeks to socialize and adopt the kitten out or keep Mom and kitten in my care until both are spayed and then return them as part of a regular TNR?

Socks is certainly feral, but we've also been taking care of her since she was about ~3 months old (give or take, if I had to guess). She's not quite as scared of me as she probably otherwise would be.

We do have 8 other cats in the house (two of them walked into our traps a few months back when we were trying to trap Socks, actually). I know that's a lot to choose from, but if I'm being honest, I'm not sure if any of them would be good for helping with socialization...

Other than that, my specific questions currently are:

- Does Momma Cat need more food than a cat her size normally would, since she appears to still be nursing?

- Our vet thought it was likely that our kitten had worms based on her examination of the kittens's belly. She gave her some dewormer, and I asked for extra in case we were able to trap Socks. Is it okay for me to put the dewormer in Sock's food?

- In the same regard, would it also be okay to mix in some Program and/or Capstar in Sock's food? Obviously I'm worried about the kitten here due to the nursing and having access to Sock's bowl in the crate. I'm just not sure what is safe.

- I am fairly sure from what I've researched that the kitten should be weaning soon, if not already. How will I know when that happens and when I need to supplement? Should I just do that as a default right now anyway?

I feel like I have so many kitten care questions and it's a little overwhelming. I'm not sure where to start or what I may not even be thinking of in the first place.

 

[Kieka]

Socks does need more food then normal while nursing. Offer her wet food and the kitten will start chowing down with Socks when it's ready. As long as the kitten gains weight you don't need to supplement. The more time you can spend with the kitten and Socks the better. If the kitten is responding to handling and petting then Socks might see it as a good thing and get better with humans too. If the kitten seems to get worse with humans that is when you want to consider more of a permanent separation. Most Mom's want a little break from kittens around that age so taking the kitten for a little while to get care, treatment and handling shouldn't be an issue.

Not sure on the medication questions, but ask your vet. It sounds like you have a good relationship with them and most vets will answer basic questions like those for clients.

 

[moxiewild]

Norachan , Socks is still too timid to eat in my presence. But maybe that will change with the crate if I work with her on it.

We had only just recently in the past week made progress with her. We used to come outside to set out the food, and if Socks was in the yard or on the porch, she'd either run across the yard and under the fence, or just across the yard and wait for us to go back inside.

But 3-4 times this past week or so when she was on our porch and we stepped outside, she only ran down the steps and stayed at the bottom of them and watched us. Those few incidences were huge for me and my boyfriend, and we both were excitedly jumping up and down and telling the other about it every time it happened.


(this next part addresses golondrina 's comment, too)

Obviously, I'd really rather leave them together for a full 12 weeks. If the kitten was fully "capable", I might roll the dice on all the socialization aspects and just hope for the best, and return her to our colony should she end up taking after her mother too much. However, because she only has three paws (and potentially 3 legs if an amputation ends up being necessary), I don't feel like it's an option to release her, especially with all of the wildlife we have here (a fox came up to our porch as I was typing this...).

I'm just not sure exactly how to go about all of this at this point. I want to do what's best for both of them.

I'm happy to know she can be spayed as soon as possible! There's not a risk of the kitten hindering her recovery at all (like her incision site)? Will the kitten be exposed to any of the anesthesia, pain medications, or vaccinations through the milk?

I'm actually not sure how they do the spay. I just found out they're closed for maintenance this Monday, but I will call on Tuesday and ask them. Is there anything else I should inquire about in regards to all of that?

 

[moxiewild]

Kieka -

Is it okay to offer Socks and/or her kitten some raw egg at all (not as a daily thing, just here and there when we're giving it to our other cats)? Our eggs come from my mom's spoiled rotten pet chickens, so the source isn't of concern.

Should I be weighing the kitten frequently and keeping track?

If I do have to end up separating them sooner rather than later, is there any sort of usual response from the mother after doing that? I will do what's best for them, of course - it was just very, very difficult on me emotionally to see Sock's reaction, tirelessly looking for her baby after we took her. Will Sock's be able to handle the separation better if it happens a few weeks from now when the kitten is a little more independent?

 

[Norachan]

When I was talking about separation, I just meant temporary, periodic separation throughout the day to handle and interact with the kitten for a bit and then put her back in with mom.

Yes, absolutely do that. Where is that crate, is it in a room in your house? If you can shut the door and let the kitten out of the crate to play every day while Socks watches it will benefit them both.

I think the more you handle kittens the better. If you have to wrap the kitten up in a towel or blanket and pet her then do that. It's all about teaching her that people aren't going to hurt her.

A wand toy is a great tool for playing with kittens, petting cats who won't let you get too close and drawing cats and kittens closer to you. I used to sit on the floor with my legs out stretched and a blanket spread over me. The kitten won't realise where you start and the blanket ends. You can use the wand toy to play with the kitten and get her used to walking over your legs, which is a fist step in getting her to come and sit on your lap.

Try Gerber's Stage 2 baby food on a long handled spoon. Make sure it's the plain meat flavours, no onions or garlic. Cat's love this. Socks might not want to eat in front of you at first, but offer her some of this while giving her slow eye blinks to show that you are friendly.

Could you get a Feliway diffuser for the room? Another good way to relax cats is classical harp music played at low volume. Having the radio on a low volume in the room help cats get used to human voices.

I recommend the Kitten Lady's channel, she has lots of great videos on how to socialise feral cats.

Kitten Lady

 

[StefanZ]

Raw egg yolk is excellent. Do it if she wants.

 

[StefanZ]

A ps re Glucose sugar / dextrose powder:
"[Also, real glucose is barely sweet. So you can easily increase the dose if you need or you want, the taste doesnt become bothering sweet in practical dosages. While honey and karo are very sweet because they contain fructose, and may easily become too sweet]"

Also, if you need to fatten up a cat, or say a queen, whom already eats all she manages. An easy way to increase the calorie content without it costing anything, is to add a little glucose sugar in the drinking water. Or sprinkle over the kibble! It barely tastes sweet, so its seldom any problem.

Or you can use diluted 1/1 pedialyte as drinking water or to mix out the KMR powder with, Say 1 part KMR, 1 part clean water, 1 part pedialyte.

Bough pedialyte contains essentially water, salts, glucose sugar.
Clear unflavored pedialyte for babies is best, and fairly easy to find.
If you have several brands to choose from; be sure it contains glucose sugar, and as few additives as possible.
(there are solutions with just salts "rehydration" - these are useful for diarrheas or if its extremely hot with heavy sweating, but they arent pedialyte as definied here).

dont use no pedialyte for sportsmen or similiar unless desperate withouth anything else at hand. These are often heavily flavored and coloured, lotsa of unnecessary chemicals. If so, its much better to make your own.

Im writing this lotsa because you ARE a rehabber, continually working with animals in need, and thus, you and your collegues have often use for such knowledge.

As I understand, these advices are sound for all mammals.

I guess for non mammals too, but of these I know much less, so Im not promising anything, just giving some ideas to look up.

 

[moxiewild]

Hey everyone!

I'll break the big news first and elaborate on it later - we're pregnant again I'm devastated and really struggling with intense guilt over it.

I'll divide this into sections so you can feel free to skip over things since this post is a long one.

Kitten's Progress -

On the up side, things are going amazing with the kitten! Her leg is healing nicely, but one sore still refuses to heal to we're not out of the woods yet as far as amputation goes.

As far as socialization, she is mostly tame. I had my mom come over and play with her, and she'll be over to do it again this week, as will my dad. One or both of our pet sitters will also likely be here this weekend and play with her. And we had Mom and Baby tested for FIV and FeLV today and they're negative so we're going to start introducing a couple of our cats to the kitten next week.

She reverts a bit if she's separated from Momma, which she really struggles with. But she constantly wants to play and will let me touch her however I want. The only real challenge is getting her used to being held, which she does not like and I've been struggling to make any progress at all with that.

Momma's Progress -

Momma cat has come around shockingly well! She eats in front of me, will take treats from my hand, blinks at me a lot now, has started meowing at me, greets me and gets intensely excited when I come into the room (not excited to see me, of course, just excited by the prospect of food ) and she'll prance around the crate and rub up on everything and do all those cute kitty things. She'll sniff my finger and has even gone face-to-face with me at the crate door (and only swiped me once LOL). I can pet her for one or two strokes before she forces herself to stop enjoying it and gives me a look, haha.

Our most recent breakthrough happened this weekend when she came out of the crate while I was playing with the kitten. I noticed her belly immediately and now realize I didn't notice it before when she was inside the crate because she's always walking back and forth and arching her back as she rubs up on everything. Or she's crouched down eating food. So I was never getting a good look at her body.

But man was it evident the second she stepped out of the crate with a normal posture.


Momma's Pregnancy -

Took her to the vet today and they confirmed. We're looking at 4 kittens at the least, but the vet thought she saw 5 or 6. She is due some time this week, maybe next.

When I inquired about a spay/abort, the vet felt it was too risky for Mom being this late. I've been researching all night and found multiple threads about late term abortions on here that seem to contradict that, so I'll have to do research. It's a really tough decision, but it's definitely a hard boundary for me if it puts Momma at too high of a risk.

I have a few questions that are specific to ferals (well, more like semi-feral now) and the birthing process and how to monitor the kittens.

I am and will read all I can in preparation, of course. But I am wondering what particular challenges may arise that are specific to feral queens. We will only intervene when necessary, but I am very nervous about it. What if there is a breech and Momma won't let me near her? Things like that.

And are feral queens ever receptive to their kittens being taken from them (to evaluate them, weigh them, etc)?

I'm particularly fortunate given the unfortunate situation. She's already used to being inside now and her "space", she's used to me (dare I say she even likes me?!), she's used to me handling her offspring, etc.

So that's a huge advantage that makes me think she'll be okay with me handling her kittens, and even possibly helping out if anything happens during labor and delivery.

But I just want to be prepared if that's not the case, and it's a bit harder to find material on the whole process with ferals specifically (I am still in early researching stages, though).

I want to just thank every single one of you for your help before. Y'all did wonders in boosting my confidence about the whole situation and I am so very grateful.

Here are some pictures from the nanny cam we bought to keep an eye on them -

 

[moxiewild]

Oh. I also want to add that I wish I would have listened to you guys here about spaying her while nursing.

I had called the spay/neuter clinic to make an appointment ASAP the following week, and they advised I wait until the kitten is fully weaned, and to allow the kitten to take as long as necessary to wean, and then went on about health benefits that seemed more related to Mom and Kitten staying together for 12 weeks than about nursing or not being fully weaned until a later age.

So I then called our vet to ask about it and she said I could still spay while nursing but encouraged me to wait until the kitten was eating more solid food, just in case. Which the kitten still isn't a super big fan of.

Granted, I don't think it really occurred to either person that Socks may possibly already be pregnant again and that waiting may mean it would be too late for a spay/abort. I do believe they acted in good faith, but it's just another thing I'm kicking myself over.

 

[StefanZ]

This vet apparently isnt experienced with late abortions, so for him it would be risky yes...

With an experienced vet it wouldnt be no big deal with a healthy cat.

 

[moxiewild]

Is there an increased risk for Momma cat though? Even with an experienced vet? Should I call my spay/neuter clinic about it?

 

[Kflowers]

I think calling your spay/neuter clinic would be an excellent place to start. Of everyone out there they should have the most information of what is available, who does this sort of spay and what the risks are. And of everyone out there they will be most sympathetic about how many kittens you are already taking care of and that this is the kindest thing for both mom and kittens.

 

[moxiewild]

Okay, I'll call them in the morning and see what they have to say.

I have to ask, though... does anyone know the process for late-term abortions like this? Do they euthanize the kittens in a traditional way? And how different is that from the kittens that will be euthanized in the shelter if this litter was to be born? My vet said this, and it was also pretty clear to me from just looking at the ultrasound, but the kittens were fully developed for all intents and purposes. It's just so hard to sort all of this out and make sense of it.

Normally I have no issue with spay/abort, but if we're talking about terminating days before the kittens are (potentially) due... that's so late in the pregnancy that I'm actually not entirely confident that it is better than kittens being euthanized in the shelter. I hope that makes sense.

I'm just feeling conflicted, but kittens are absolutely not my area, so I know there's a lot I don't know that may help the decision seem more clear to me.

 

[moxiewild]

So I won't get too into it here (I posted a different thread about it yesterday), but I am leaving town this weekend because I'm in a wedding, and I have two amazing sitters who are very experienced with rescue that will be taking care of things, and they just came over to go over everything just now.

One of the sitters is a vet tech, so I went ahead and asked her about the late term abortion thing. She thought it was odd that my vet told me it would be too dangerous. She's been involved in a lot late term terminations, and said there isn't much of an increased risk for mom.

She also answered my questions regarding what actually happens with the kittens in that situation, and it looks like the suffering is very minimal. I'm going to continue researching about it tonight, but she reassured me quite a bit.

My normal spay/neuter clinic only takes ferals and walk-ins on Mondays, Tuesdays, and Wednesdays. So I'm just going to call first thing in the morning and bend the truth a little and say we trapped Socks this afternoon, took her to the vet because she was pregnant, and the vet said she is nearly due but won't/said it's too dangerous to do a termination this late, and see what they say.

If it is a safe option, then I am hoping they will perceive the situation as being urgent enough to take a walk in and we can have Socks spayed.