I want to FINALLY switch to raw.

[nullentropy]

Alright, so as many of you know I have two kittens, Smokey Bear and Daisy. They are 4 months old now and had been eating Innova Evo almost exclusively. However, they've both had diarrhea, and after being checked extensively for parasites/worms/etc and coming out clean, I've come to the conclusion that it's the diet. I switched them back to Tiki cat, and the diarrhea cleared up. However, I just can't afford it at $2.88 for 6 ounces. So I've decided to take the leap to raw. I'm curious. Is it safe for me to get the meat at Walmart or the grocery store and just add in supplements, or do I have to order it from a specific pet place? I'd like to be able to find a good butcher in my area, but haven't looked yet. I've decided to order Alnutrin to supplement the raw. Need some help please!

 

[katluver4life]

Non ground meats from the supermarket is fine with a supplement WITH calcium, but with the Alnutrin with Calcium, you also have to give them organs with the meat. Call of the Wild supplement is total and also has probiotics and digestive enzymes mixed in, also more expensive, but soooo easy to use.

Before worrying about supplements, first see if they'll eat raw. You can give them up to 15% of their diet unsupplemented. Try small pieces of chicken breast or thigh, or any other meat actually, and see if they'll try it. I started with chicken as it seems most will go for it. Then visit our Raw Resource thread http://www.thecatsite.com/t/240809/raw-feeding-resource-thread Just about every question on raw feeding is covered and will make your life a lot easier during the transition.

Good luck and keep us posted on how it goes and feel free to ask questions along the way!

 

[mschauer]

I'm curious. Is it safe for me to get the meat at Walmart or the grocery store and just add in supplements, or do I have to order it from a specific pet place? I'd like to be able to find a good butcher in my area, but haven't looked yet. I've decided to order Alnutrin to supplement the raw. Need some help please!

A lot of raw feeders use grocery store meats even the pre-ground ones. The disadvantage of pre-ground meats is that grinding increases the surface area which speeds oxidation and so nutrient degradation. The increased surface area also speeds bacteria growth.

The Alnutrin requires liver which is a great addition to your food. It is nutrient rich and it is best to get as many nutrients as possible from fresh food sources rather than from supplements. Some people have a hard time finding liver in their area though.

Have you seen the nutrient calculator on the Alnutrin manufacturer site:

http://www.knowwhatyoufeed.com/RecipeBasicnonmetric.htm

 

[peaches08]

I give my cats grocery store meat and they are doing great! I have a Tasin grinder and use the chicken thighs recipe from www.catinfo.org, but before my grinder came in I used premixes and cut the meat into chunks.

 

[vball91]

Yup, non pre-ground grocery meat is fine, as long as it is not enhanced with a flavor/sodium solution. All meats should have less than 100mg of sodium per serving.

The easiest way to think of supplementation to me depends on what you are planning on feeding. This applies whether you are planning on feeding frankenprey (pieces) or ground.

Meat only = use COTW

Meat + organs = use Alnutrin w/Calcium

Meat + organs + bone = use Alnutrin for Meat and Bone OR separate supplements

 

[ldg]

I use supermarket meats. As vball91 points out, just check the sodium level. :nod: I buy various beef cuts, pork loin, chicken thighs, chicken breast, gizzards, and chicken livers. The chicken livers are sold in a round tub.

If using meat, liver, and the Alnutrin with calcium, you will need a kitchen scale to measure out how much meat you're feeding so you can use the right amount of liver and the correct amount of Alnutrin.

The calculator mschauer provided a link to will help. But the liver should be between 5% and 10% of the total amount of food fed. You can even include some kidney (I use beef kidney). If including kidney, then liver should be 5% of the total diet, and the kidney should be 5% of the total diet. Organs are always best fed in combination with some meat, because they're so rich, if you feed a meal of just organs, cats usually just throw it up or get diarrhea.

 

[nullentropy]

They've eat commercial raw before, and little bits of raw chicken, so I know they'll eat it. Until the COTW arrives, can I feed them raw muscle/organ mixed with egg? Or do I /have/ to wait for the COTW before starting them?

 

[ldg]

Well, if you'll be using CoTW, you shouldn't be feeding liver, or they will get too much vitamin A. And with the CoTW, you really don't need to feed any organs. It's meant to balance just meat, not meat and organs.

The supplement that balances meat and organs is Alnutrin with calcium. Liver, at a minimum, is required with the meat when using that one.

The basic guidelines are 80% meat / 10% bone / 5% liver / 5% other secreting organ (kidney, spleen, pancreas, thymus). When feeding prey model raw, this is usually balanced with at least egg yolks and sardines (fed as treats, not meals). Of course, egg yolks are a good addition to any diet, and can be fed 1 - 2x a week. So when using a supplement like Alnutrin with calcium, most people still stick to the basic ratio, just eliminating the bone, because the supplement includes the calcium.

Non-secreting organs (treated like meat, and can be used with CoTW) are heart, lung, and gizzards. Hearts are a great addition to any raw diet, they have a lot of taurine.

While nutritional deficiencies take time to develop, feeding meat without calcium will result in soft poop or diarrhea at some point. I don't know how long, because I've never done it. You can use eggshell powder to provide the calcium. It takes just 1/32 teaspoon of (finely ground) eggshell powder to balance one ounce of meat. I just sprinkle it on the meal. Eggshell powder is easy to make yourself. Just dry the eggshells and use something like a coffee grinder (one that hasn't ground coffee though LOL) to powder them once they're dry. Some suggest baking them at 300 for 10 minutes or so just to ensure they're really dry. Or just place empty shells on a plate in the sun...

 

[nullentropy]

Can I just give them raw egg, shell and all mixed with chicken meat, liver, and gizzards? (those are all things I can pick up tomorrow)

 

[carolina]

On the Walmart meats:

They do have GREAT meats on Walmart, and they do have cage free vegetarian fed chicken, and pasture raised lamb, which I love.... HOWEVER:
My cats got quite sick from their meat - they got Clostridium P. from there. All four of them. While I treated them with probiotics only (a specific Probiotic called S. Boulardii), Clostridium perfringens can be lethal in cats when it becomes toxic (my cats were all toxic) as it "rottens" putting in layman's terms the gut.... basically.

I thought it was a bad batch of meat. But then I bought a second batch of chicken from them mid-treatment and sure enough they all had diarrhea.

So..... Suffice to say I will never feed meat from Walmart again.

Now....... I can't say if the problem is at this particular store - I moved recently, and I fed the same brands from Walmart about 30mi away and never had an issue :dk:
I am just being safe here and wanted to bring it to your attention.

I still feed supermarket meats though, as cheap as Walmart - I just now buy at Sprouts Farmers Market. I asked my vet if I should change to a commercial food ***while*** they were sick, and he said nope - just get another batch.

You might want to try Costco - there are members here that were happy with the meat there :nod:

If you buy meat at Walmart, always check the sodium levels. The pork in there is enhanced, I never found pork that's is not enhanced in there.
Chicken and Turkey is ok - get the chicken in the green package - should say cage free vegetarian fed.
The turkey comes in a vacuum sealed blue package - says minimally processed, all natural. It is already sliced turkey breast.

The lamb is good too, but it is expensive...... If you want to feed that once in a while - the cuts are vacuum sealed in eaches. They are from NZ, pasture raised, hormone, antibiotic free, etc.

They do have chicken liver, but it is highly enhanced - ti comes in a tub - stay away from it.

Good luck!!

 

[nullentropy]

On the Walmart meats:

They do have GREAT meats on Walmart, and they do have cage free vegetarian fed chicken, and pasture raised lamb, which I love.... HOWEVER:
My cats got quite sick from their meat - they got Clostridium P. from there. All four of them. While I treated them with probiotics only (a specific Probiotic called S. Boulardii), Clostridium perfringens can be lethal in cats when it becomes toxic (my cats were all toxic) as it "rottens" putting in layman's terms the gut.... basically.

I thought it was a bad batch of meat. But then I bought a second batch of chicken from them mid-treatment and sure enough they all had diarrhea.

So..... Suffice to say I will never feed meat from Walmart again.

Now....... I can't say if the problem is at this particular store - I moved recently, and I fed the same brands from Walmart about 30mi away and never had an issue

I am just being safe here and wanted to bring it to your attention.

I still feed supermarket meats though, as cheap as Walmart - I just now buy at Sprouts Farmers Market. I asked my vet if I should change to a commercial food ***while*** they were sick, and he said nope - just get another batch.

You might want to try Costco - there are members here that were happy with the meat there

If you buy meat at Walmart, always check the sodium levels. The pork in there is enhanced, I never found pork that's is not enhanced in there.
Chicken and Turkey is ok - get the chicken in the green package - should say cage free vegetarian fed.
The turkey comes in a vacuum sealed blue package - says minimally processed, all natural. It is already sliced turkey breast.

The lamb is good too, but it is expensive...... If you want to feed that once in a while - the cuts are vacuum sealed in eaches. They are from NZ, pasture raised, hormone, antibiotic free, etc.

They do have chicken liver, but it is highly enhanced - ti comes in a tub - stay away from it.

Good luck!!

There are lots of supermarkets near me, so if I can avoid Walmart, I will. I was mostly concerned about commercial human-grade meat. I definitely don't want to deal with Clostridium, since they're just getting over food-induced (non-parasitic) diarrhea. That's my main reason for switching to raw.

 

[peaches08]

Why are vegetarian chickens better?

 

[katluver4life]

It just means they were not fed any animal by products, therefore avoiding potential issues with disease, but doesn't mean they were pasture fed or that they live in better conditions.

Since chickens are omnivores and not vegetarians, when labels say vegetarian fed, it's a good indication they are still industrial fed and not free range pasture fed. Still not bad, but can be misleading. Free range (pasture) fed chickens, meaning chickens allowed to be chickens, eat not only seeds and greens, they also eat worms, frogs, snakes and mice. This makes them more nutrient dense. So if your looking for really good chicken, what you want to look for on packaging is pasture raised, but vegetarian fed is still better then commercially grain fed.

 

[peaches08]

Thanks for that info, Katluver4life.

Can I just give them raw egg, shell and all mixed with chicken meat, liver, and gizzards? (those are all things I can pick up tomorrow)

Temporarily this is OK, but those ingredients alone will lead to severe deficiencies. You need to add a premix (omit liver if it is in the premix) or supplement the food as explained in making cat food on www.catinfo.org.

 

[nullentropy]

Yeah this is definitely not a permanent thing, it's just I can get the raw stuff less expensively than the Tiki Cat, and I can mix it all together until I get the COTW in the mail.

 

[peaches08]

Maybe check out herb/vitamin shops? Well, depending on how long it takes to get your premix in.

I sympathize with the diarrhea. All three of mine were sick until raw diet.

 

[nullentropy]

The boyfriend is worried about contamination/bacteria that the cats can transfer from the food to us. Is this a concern? We're really cuddly with them and kissing their faces and stuff.

 

[peaches08]

Not really. No more of a concern than if you were feeding kibble. Or if canned was left out too long.

I rinse the chicken thighs really well before grinding/chunking, and I've not had a problem.

 

[ldg]

Nope, not a problem. I kiss my kitties all over - noses, mouths, feet... I just don't literally kiss their butts. :lol3: