Hybrid Cats - lots of reasons to rethink

[tammyp]

I found this fascinatingly informed article, which I truely believe everyone needs to read, especially if they are considering a hybrid cat.  (Not sure where it is most suited for posting - covers health, behaviour, and impact on feral populations).

http://feline-nutrition.org/feature...aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582

 

[lilin]

I completely agree. They're gorgeous cats certainly, but honestly, I've never seen someone get one and not be overwhelmed. Some learn how to handle them, others don't, but to "market" them (I hate that term -- they're living things, but that's what it is: marketing) as being just like normal domestics, but unique-looking, is misleading and leads to a lot of homeless cats. That's to say nothing of all the "failed attempts" who are too wild or don't look "right" and just wind up being killed.

I mean, heck, think of the shock former dog owners sometimes have with their first cat, even one that's fully domestic. A normal domestic cat is still fairly "wild" in some respects, compared to a dog: harder to gain trust from, deeper roots in their instinctual habits, less willing to be trained, uses body and scent more than facial cues, etc. If cats got as big as golden retrievers, they wouldn't be anywhere near as easy to handle as the goldie, that's for sure!

Cats are already a wonderful combination of a domestic demeanor and a wild soul. To make them any more wild than they already are and expect them to live inside our homes is unfair to them. It's not the life they're made for, and we often can't give them what they need.

 

[ayeshajae]

What is a hybrid cat?

 

[lilin]

What is a hybrid cat?

A cat who is part domestic, and part wild. Bengals, for example, are a cross between a domestic cat and an Asian leopard.

 

[ayeshajae]

Wow I saw bengals on this show called cats 101 on animal planet never would have guessed its part wild, I'd imagine they would be pretty destructive and hate being inside if their anything like wolf dogs

 

[denice]

I knew that early generation hybrids generally thrive on a raw diet.  Most Bengals are at least fifth generation so they only have a tiny bit of wild blood in them.  They are certainly very active cats and need a lot of interactive play.

Savannahs all tend to be early generation so they tend to come with issues.  Savannahs are difficult to breed because of different gestation periods.  I have read that most are premature which that in and of itself is, I think, a good reason to rethink Savannahs.

 

[bluebird gal]

Having worked as a volunteer for 5yrs at a big cat rescue facility .. I would certainly say I would love, love, love to have the right mentor, the right acreage available to fence in for raising both bengals and a handful of natural food sources for them to hunt.

I still think about the bengal in Port Aransas, TX that the local vet took over as an owner surrender.  He is actually an F1, absolutely incredible markings and voice ..  unfortunately the owners had more money than hybrid cat education -- and the cat destroyed (literally getting them evicted) their apartment, most of their furniture, as well as having sent both of them, at one time or another, to the emergency room for stitches.   They lived for about one full week with him on his collar/leash and chained to the microwave door so he could not reach anything to destroy before contacting that vet to surrender.  At least they did surrender him.

Most people really have no need to own the hybrids.  Not much different to me than saying most people really have no need to purchase a working breed dog either.   

I just wish I knew a good owner/breeder who's hybrids I could visit from time to time. 

 

 

[denice]

An F1 would be very different from a domestic cat being that he is 1/2 Asian Leopard cat.  We used to have a Bengal breeder here, he retired from breeding.  The only thing he really said about the F5 was being high energy and needing a lot of exercise and play.  He would post videos of them jumping after toys and he had a wheel for them to run on.

Right before he left here he took in a Savannah who was going to be a handful.  It didn't sound like he had been socialized.  

 

[cheddi]

My 2 cents worth:  I think it's a crime.  If animals had rights, they wouldn't do it.  The shelters are full of beautiful, healthy, affectionate, smart and wonderful cats who need homes.  To breed cats to look a certain way so one can sell and make money off them is, I strongly feel, morally WRONG.  By now we know, beyond any doubt, when cats and dogs are bred for a particular look, health problems are part of the result.  The healthiest animals are the ones who have bred at random, thereby mixing lots of genes.  I've learned a lot from Temple Grandin.  I think everyone who loves an animal should read a couple of her books.

Can you judge the health of a nation by the way it treats its animals?  I think you can.

Cheri

 

[ayeshajae]

I disagree with what u say about purebreds but no big deal

I just love my purebred dog and know lots of purebred dogs have really good attributes and that getting a purebred from a reputable breeder is actually safer than getting a pet from a shelter because the shelter animal might have emotional issues/ behavoral issues

That's not to say that shelter animals are bad at all but it might be more of a gamble I think
This might just be from my negative experience tho

 

[tammyp]

Hi AyeshaJae,  this is a thread about hybrids not purebreds - hybrids are when the difficult job of mixing two species is done ie: a wild cat and a domestic cat. That article in the first post does a terrific job of outlining the considerable issues.

Purebreds can also have problems - but not like the hybrids.  Most of the problems with purebreds comes from man liking something and making it  (from domestic sources), but unfortunately, the resultant animals can come with terrible health problems, and/or psychological problems (for example, if you choose to breed a cat that has terribly short legs but will still have the cat modus operandi of needing to jump, run, climb.)  Partly for this reason, some man-made purebreds will not be recognised by cat associations.

But healthy, stable purebreds are a different matter - I have 2 Korats, which are a natural breed and not man-made, and as a breed, are in danger of not being around.  Breeders across the world co-operate in an effort to keep this breed alive, and their efforts are held up as an example, as the Korat gene pool is extremely healthy, despite it's small size.

So yes, I agree with you -  good purebreds, from good breeders, are wonderful animals.  And so too are our 'natural' moggies!

 

[lilin]

 
Hi AyeshaJae,  this is a thread about hybrids not purebreds - hybrids are when the difficult job of mixing two species is done ie: a wild cat and a domestic cat. That article in the first post does a terrific job of outlining the considerable issues.

Purebreds can also have problems - but not like the hybrids.  Most of the problems with purebreds comes from man liking something and making it  (from domestic sources), but unfortunately, the resultant animals can come with terrible health problems, and/or psychological problems (for example, if you choose to breed a cat that has terribly short legs but will still have the cat modus operandi of needing to jump, run, climb.)  Partly for this reason, some man-made purebreds will not be recognised by cat associations.

But healthy, stable purebreds are a different matter - I have 2 Korats, which are a natural breed and not man-made, and as a breed, are in danger of not being around.  Breeders across the world co-operate in an effort to keep this breed alive, and their efforts are held up as an example, as the Korat gene pool is extremely healthy, despite it's small size.

So yes, I agree with you -  good purebreds, from good breeders, are wonderful animals.  And so too are our 'natural' moggies!

Natural breeds are the ones often referred to as "land races," correct? They simply occur due to geographical proximity and time, much like human races.

I think we can definitely look at these breeds a bit differently, because they are, in a sense, "random bred." They were just random bred within a smaller pool back before globalization, which narrows their visible features somewhat more than moggie cats, but doesn't necessarily hinder their genetic diversity or sturdiness. There's often more genetic diversity within races than between them.

But I have to say my comfort with man-made breeds does nothing but shrink over time. When I was a kid, my parents got me a Cornish Rex cat. I loved her dearly and I certainly don't regret having her in my life for 15 years, but I will never get a purebred under my own power.

She was from a good, small-scale breeder who produces relatively healthy animals and was even willing to sacrifice some amount of "breed standard" to do it. Besides that, Cornish Rexes supposedly aren't all that burdened by health problems to begin with. Some hair loss quirks, wobbly hips sometimes, but nothing serious is noted with frequency in the breed.

But I can tell you Pearl was never a fully healthy cat. She had an extremely sensitive system her entire life. Her decline into elderly health problems began early despite a very carefully maintained indoor life, and my vet says it's not surprisingly in a pedigree animal, regardless of how clear their breed rap sheet supposedly is.

While the crossing does help hybrids somewhat due to hybrid vigor, both the domestic and wild cat stock they use for breeding is often inbred, so those animals are often plagued by health problems. That's to say nothing of the neurotic personalities a lot of these hybrids have (as I understand it, this is even worse in "wolf dogs," who sometimes seem downright schizophrenic from their conflicting drives).

Honestly, I'm kind of to the point where I wish humans would just stop screwing with it. Like I said, I think we have to look at landraces differently because their populations are naturally genetically healthy as long as they are simply maintained, but humans haven't quite figured out how to breed for features without also creating sicker animals. And I really don't see why it's so important that we should continue to pursue it.

Ultimately, if I'm looking to adopt, I'll take any kitty I click with -- including a purebred who potentially comes with health problems and special needs, so long as I think I can handle them. But I would never buy from a breeder.

 

[tammyp]

 but humans haven't quite figured out how to breed for features without also creating sicker animals. And I really don't see why it's so important that we should continue to pursue it.

Hear hear!!

 

[mschauer]

I'll start by saying I don't approve of the practice of breeding cats for the purpose of achieving a particular look whether it be a "purebred" or "hybrid".

Nonetheless even I think that article is so one sided and so biased that all told all I can say is that it is just a bunch of nonsense. The author has taken her experiences with hybrids she has encountered and then made the assertion that the traits she has seen in those animals exemplify the entire category of hybrids. 

The author is the founder of Big Cat Rescue. An organization that would only be called on to rescue a cat that is truly wild. She likely rarely if ever encounters the more typical, completely domesticated hybrid which is many generations removed from it's wild ancestor.

I was going to list and respond to each one of her more ridiculous assertions but that would require far more time than I am willing to spend on this. The fact is every assertion she makes is an outlandish exaggeration. 

I have a Bengal that was a rescue from an irresponsible breeder. The only trait she has that the author claims can be expected in a hybrid is that she does indeed require either a dietary supplement or a homemade diet to prevent loose stools. Although even with that the authors description of "projectile diarrhea" would be an exaggeration. Since that trait is also found in many purely domesticate cats there is reason to believe it could well have been inherited from her domesticate ancestors rather than her wild one.

Here are a couple of pictures of my little terror:

P1010406.JPG

• mschauer
• Mar 23, 2014

P1010323.JPG

• mschauer
• Mar 23, 2014

 

 but humans haven't quite figured out how to breed for features without also creating sicker animals. And I really don't see why it's so important that we should continue to pursue it.

Hear hear!!

I'm pretty sure the poster was making a point about breeding in general. not just hybrid breeding.

 

[denice]

I am glad someone else has taken issue with the article in the original post.  It has a lot of false statements about the later generation hybrids that bring up the negative stereotypes especially about Bengals.  Along with the breeder we used to have several owners of Bengals here and this simply is not their experience.  Most responsible breeders will say there is no longer a need for an early generation Bengal.  There is now a large healthy stable gene pool so all breeding is now F5 X F5.  These cats have a very small amount of the Asian Leopard cat left.  They are high energy cats but there are cats that are 100 percent domestic cats that are high energy.

The Savannah is still being developed so a lot of those cats are early generation with all the issues that come with a cat that has a high percentage of wildcat in them.  I don't agree with having created these hybrid breeds to begin with.  In the case of the Bengal they are now an established breed and in essence are now a domestic breed.  Unfortunately the people who are developing the Savannah will continue with what they are doing.  In 20 years they will be like the Bengal is now.

 

[tammyp]

 I'll start by saying I don't approve of the practice of breeding cats for the purpose of achieving a particular look whether it be a "purebred" or "hybrid".

Agreed!  Perhaps with emphasis on the why - where a known or predictable misery to the animal exists.

It was interesting to read people's views that the article was biased.  Yet, there do seem to be issues with hybrid cats, exaggerated or not.

By looking solely at the Bengal as an example of all hybrids is possibly exaggerating in the opposite way and missing many of the truths that are in the article?  After all, 

   In the case of the Bengal they are now an established breed and in essence are now a domestic breed.  Unfortunately the people who are developing the Savannah will continue with what they are doing.  In 20 years they will be like the Bengal is now.

So ALL hybrids start off as a half wild somewhere along the line - with a lot of problems.  Which leads me back to the first quote - Why make animals go through a predictable misery simply on the whim of a human?  Yes, later generations will improve, but that doesn't undo the initial problems and hardships for the animals.  In my opinion, we should learn from what has happened, and not go ahead and create new hybrids, or reintroduce a wild strain that is getting too dilute in an established hybrid breed.  There are already so many beautiful cats who are/could be very happy 

I did think the point made in that article about the ramifications of hybrids released to be feral was pertinent - I'd never thought of that before.

 

[ayeshajae]

I just don't think it's fair to say cause lots of people care about how their pets look including me

 

[denice]

I just don't think it's fair to say cause lots of people care about how their pets look including me

That's okay.  That's why there is a cat fancy.  I seriously considered getting a Siamese.  There used to be a traditional Siamese breeder here.  She was no longer breeding but her stud cat was still intact and was used by other breeders. I like the less extreme look and it's tough to find a breeder that you know is responsible.  One of the criteria that tells you a breeder is responsible is that they do or have shown their cats, or at least their kittens have went on to be shown by other people.  At that time the traditional Siamese weren't shown because there was no place to show them.  I think TICA has started a Thai cat category for the more traditional Siamese.  I had gotten to the point that she had offered to find a kitten for me but I decided to stick with rescues.  

 

[mschauer]

Originally Posted by tammyp  

 By looking solely at the Bengal as an example of all hybrids is possibly exaggerating in the opposite way and missing many of the truths that are in the article?  After all, 

???? No claim has been made that the Bengal exemplifies all hybrid cats. The author of the article does however present her claims as exemplifying all hybrids. Claims which are arguably false. That is all my post was addressing. 

As a reminder, from the forum guidelines:

 However, if you take a strong exception to breeders or the practice of breeding, then this forum is not for you.Anti-breeding sentiments will not be tolerated in this forum.

 

[awaiting abyss]

Soren is an F2 Bobcat Hybrid. I have none of those issues except spraying.. though he's not fixed, so I'm not sure if the spraying would stop after he gets neutered.

I'm also not sure about the diet... Since I feed Soren raw and whole prey by choice.