How to tell when kittens are getting enough from the nipple?

aclmmb

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Hi all! I have some questions and am looking for reassurance/advice about my cat and her newborn kits...

Background - She was a stray I took in and was socialising/trying to get used to other people (she's extremely loving to me, but very scared of humans in general) before putting through spaying, but my flatmate let her out despite specific instructions to the contrary. Pregnancy seemed ok, birth too (I am keeping both the kittens), but then she developed a womb infection and had to be emergency spayed 24 hours after the babies were born. This is ok now that she's out of the woods, as I was planning to spay anyway once they were weaned, but the current situation has left me with a few concerns.

1) Is she producing milk? I push her nipples but see no milk coming out, and while some seem full, others are more flat... the kittens refuse to even try suckling the full ones though and latch on to the flat ones for ages. If they are latching on and returning to the same nipples, does this mean they are getting milk from them? She is a very small cat so maybe I am missing the milk droplets when I push...

I know cats can keep lactating perfectly well after spay (plus I didn't see milk coming out even before spay) but she is also dealing with the aftereffects of the op and on (kitten-safe) antibiotics etc so wondered if this stress might decrease it? I assume though that I should keep letting the kittens suckle as it will probably stimulate more production?

The kittens, by the way, are tiny but very energetic and noisy when they're removed from mum. With her they're quiet apart from when fighting over one nipple (they seem to only be able to use a couple), and spend their time mainly suckling or sleeping. They don't seem to be complaining about lack of food.

2) I am also supplementing with kitten milk replacement from the vet but they are not big fans. They seem to dislike the smell, as soon as the teat gets close they turn away. Have had a bit more success with a tiny syringe, esp as their portions at the moment are so small, but am concerned about forcing it into them. Any ideas or luck making a bottle teat more acceptable to them? The one or two times they've suckled it it made life so much easier and less stressful! 

Also I know generally the idea is to feed them every two hours or so (but I also see six-seven times a day - which is right? Two hours would be 12 times a day...) but if they are feeding off her too and potentially getting sustenance that way how often should I supplement? And how much? 10% of body weight is what vet said, but 1ml x 12 is very different from 1ml x 6! And the effect is exacerbated if they're also getting mother's milk...

3) Related to nipples again; I think the reason the big bottom two aren't being used is mastitis perhaps, the vet agreed. What can I do to loosen up the milk in them and maybe get them flowing? Any success stories? I've tried hot and cold compresses once, thought maybe was starting to work but kittens seemed uninterested... might try again though.

4) The babies are small but, as I said, have lots of energy. I'm concerned the girl hadn't put on weight when I weighed her earlier today though (in a few hours they will be three days old), but she seems active and lively. Should I be concerned if I see no increase one day? I'll feel a bit better when I weigh her again in the morning if she's gained then, and my gut is that she seems pretty healthy, but what are anyone else's experiences with few-day-old, very small kittens?

Thanks in advance, looking forward to hearing from people! Sorry went into so much detail :p
 

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Here are three related recent threads on the subject that may give you some of the answers you need.  Feel free to send a private message to anyone posting in a link, just click on their name,a dropdown menu will appear,  scroll down and select Send Private Message, click there and compose your message and send, simple as that.  You will get a notice when you log in again that you have a private message and nust click on it and you will go there.

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/318421/could-our-kittens-not-be-getting-enough-milk

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/242281/how-do-i-know-if-one-of-the-kittens-is-getting-enough-milk

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/318598/advice-and-how-to-help-mom-start-producing-more-milk
 

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What antibiotic is she on? It should also clear the mastitis if that is what she has. Continue using the warm compresses (not cold) on the affected nipples.

Weighing the kittens is key. If they are not gaining 6-10 grams a day it's a red alert. I would continue supplementing every 2 hours for now because it does not sound like they are getting enough from mom.

What KMR are you using? I recommend the powdered PetAg in the can - never pre-mixed liquid. GNC and Royal Canin are good too. Avoid Hartz and Sergeants brands. I would only use the syringe for now - tummy down, head up, drop at a time in the side of the mouth. Let kitten swallow and breathe, and give another drop or two.

If you tell me how much they each weigh, I'll tell you how much to feed at each feeding.

I'm so sorry mom had to have emergency surgery, but glad she's okay. She will feel better each day. Let's get these kittens growing. Sounds like you are very caring and really on top of things!
 
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aclmmb

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Thank you both - Sarthur2 Sarthur2 , she's on Synulox twice a day. The full lower nipples are looking softer now but still nothing comes out, going to try massaging them a bit.

The kittens are 60 and 107 grams respectively for the boy and girl - the difference wasn't so big before but think when they were fighting over nipples the first day mum was back the little girl lost out a lot, despite my best efforts. Still, she's gained about 6g since last night with a couple of bottle feeds in the early hours and then regularly since 8am, so I'm feeling a little relieved. I'm using Royal Canin Catbaby powder, which the vet gave me... As I make up 20ml at a time and only use a few ml on the babies I've been pouring out the rest for Xanadu, who - unlike them! - seems to enjoy it.

Is it possible to overfeed? Should I put a bit extra in to account for potential spillage?

Xana is a very attentive mother, by the way, constantly gazing at them and licking them, so I'm hoping she can boost the lactation as she's clearly still feeling the hormones.

Poss though the lack of food before her op and for a while after is getting in the way of production though... She hasn't pooed since she got home. Should I be worried about that? Tried to call the vet but apparently they close at noon on Wed.

Also she's occasionally sort of collapsing her hind legs and snarling horribly at her rear end - I think this must be internal twinges from the op and is just fear and pain, and it only happens infrequently, but it did startle me at first as she's never been aggressive in her life, so if anyone has thoughts on that would love them... Again wanted to ask the vet but they're shut til the morning. Her temp seems OK and she's fine with the babies, only snarls at herself when she's out walking around... Thanks so much again for all your help! I'm going to get all three of them through this patch even if it means no sleep or work at all for the next few weeks!
 

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Thank you both - @sarthur2, she's on Synulox twice a day. The full lower nipples are looking softer now but still nothing comes out, going to try massaging them a bit.

The kittens are 60 and 107 grams respectively for the boy and girl - the difference wasn't so big before but think when they were fighting over nipples the first day mum was back the little girl lost out a lot, despite my best efforts. Still, she's gained about 6g since last night with a couple of bottle feeds in the early hours and then regularly since 8am, so I'm feeling a little relieved. I'm using Royal Canin Catbaby powder, which the vet gave me... As I make up 20ml at a time and only use a few ml on the babies I've been pouring out the rest for Xanadu, who - unlike them! - seems to enjoy it.

Is it possible to overfeed? Should I put a bit extra in to account for potential spillage?

Xana is a very attentive mother, by the way, constantly gazing at them and licking them, so I'm hoping she can boost the lactation as she's clearly still feeling the hormones.

Poss though the lack of food before her op and for a while after is getting in the way of production though... She hasn't pooed since she got home. Should I be worried about that? Tried to call the vet but apparently they close at noon on Wed.

Also she's occasionally sort of collapsing her hind legs and snarling horribly at her rear end - I think this must be internal twinges from the op and is just fear and pain, and it only happens infrequently, but it did startle me at first as she's never been aggressive in her life, so if anyone has thoughts on that would love them... Again wanted to ask the vet but they're shut til the morning. Her temp seems OK and she's fine with the babies, only snarls at herself when she's out walking around... Thanks so much again for all your help! I'm going to get all three of them through this patch even if it means no sleep or work at all for the next few weeks!
Nay, overfeeding is very difficult.  Possibly, if bottle feed are overflowed, and dont manage to swallow. and or get a throw up.    But as long they eats and wants, and you burp afterwards...

This RC kmr is one of the better...  Yes, its surele wise to do a little too much, to have a reserve.   What is not used, you can refrigerate, but giving momma is excellent solution.

Baby on 60 is Alert situation , but good she does gains.   On her, weigh her every 12 hours, so you are doubly vigilant, till you are sure she is out of the woods.

Its momma not elimanting yet?  Some wait isnt dangerous, but 1. Be sure she has enough with fluids, 2. you can add some coldpressed olive oil or similiar food oil to her food.  Its mildy "relaxing".

Yes, it seems she has twitches of pain now and then...  Or at least, unusual feelings, with the stitches straining and so on...
 

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It sounds to me as though she is very sore. Perhaps her stitches feel tight and her bottom is sore. Did they send you home with pain meds? It sounds like she needs them.

Please do give mom KMR. The calcium in it is very good for her. She has probably been a bit dehydrated from not eating due to surgery, but will poop in time. Adding a few drops of olive oil to her wet food will make it easier to pass her stool. Also, a tablespoon of plain, canned pumpkin mixed in will provide fiber.

The Royal Canin powder is great! It is next to impossible to overfeed a growing kitten.

I am very concerned over the kitten who only weighs 60 grams. Anything under 90 is a premature weight, as healthy weight kittens weigh 90 grams and up at birth. I don't know how much is spilling, but I strongly recommend feeding this tiny kitten with a syringe to avoid spillage and control what it is getting.

This baby needs a minimum of 20 mLs of formula in each 24-hour period right now based on its current weight. That means 1.5-2 mLs every 2 hours around the clock until it gets bigger. Amount increases with weight gain. It is figured as 8mLs per ounce of weight. Since we do not know how much if any it is getting from mom you really need to try to get this amount into the kitten. Be careful to go slow with the syringe so the kitten does not aspirate formula into its lungs.

The other kitten needs 32 mLs in a 24-hour period, or 2.5-3 mLs every 2 hours. This kitten is small too. Eventually, when they catch up, if mom has full milk, they will nurse her exclusively, but I have a feeling this may not happen. They are critical right now.

Please let me know how it goes today.
 
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aclmmb

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Ahh thank you re the olive oil, that makes sense - it may be a bit painful for her excreting right now so any help will be good.

And yes, I'm weighing the little one every other time I feed... between the last two she gained 2g, and had just eliminated so that was all body weight. Fingers crossed!
 

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Excellent! Keep up the good job, and keep me posted! [emoji]128522[/emoji]
 
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Yes, have been giving her pain meds, but don't want to give more than prescribed - she's quite a small cat herself, about 7lb at the moment with the baby weight, so feel it would be easy to overdose her by mistake... the KMR for her is a great addition though, that will help too as she's not a big water-drinker and I think she needs more liquids to get back to normal; I may make her some up that's more dilute even to increase her water intake. 

And ooh, ok, I was being told 10% of body weight by the vet re feeding, but this is clearer. I'll add more to their feeds - and yes, am using the syringe, but they're both very feisty and tend to jerk their heads away at the last moment so it sometimes ends up half in their mouths and half down their necks! I'm doing my best to do it very slowly though and avoid drowning them or getting it near their noses... I have 1ml syringes and tend to feed them one of those in 20 pushes, with breathing spaces between each push. I still worry though! Is that slow enough?

I don't think they're premature though, weirdly... the girl is already opening both eyes. Just going to keep plugging at it and being careful and hope for the best! Thank you so much for everything and the amounts especially, that's really really helpful, have been giving them less than that so hopefully the increase will see bigger gains!
 
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Sorry I thought perhaps 'reply' was to the specific answer, not to thread as a whole, so meant those two above to be to each of you @StefanZ  and @sarthur2  - still a newbie here!
 

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I'm glad my information was helpful! That's what we are here for. [emoji]128522[/emoji]

You can wrap the kittens in a blanket or towel like a burrito to feed. They won't move as much.

They are not premature, just premature birth weight on the smallest one. I'm glad they are hitting milestones like eyes opening on time. That's a good sign!

Yes, more dilute KMR will help mom. Sounds like she needs fluids. She may like tuna water too!

I'm really glad the tiny one is gaining. Hopefully you can get her weight way up this week. The 6-10 grams/day is minimum. She can gain way more and it would be dandy!
 
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Sorry I thought perhaps 'reply' was to the specific answer, not to thread as a whole, so meant those two above to be to each of you @StefanZ  and @sarthur2  - still a newbie here!
No problem.  :)   If its important to point oout a specific answer, you can easiest quote it with the quoting function.
 
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aclmmb

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She - 68g and he - 119g. That's +14g and +16g respectively in 24 hours! Feeling vaguely hopeful - just praying they haven't breathed any tiny droplets in as they've been feeding. 

They also just both emptied their bowels all over me, so I know that stuff is passing through..! 
 

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WooHoo! That is excellent! If gains like that continue, they will be out of the woods in no time flat!

How old are the kittens today? I'll give you age/weight goals.

And we'd love to see pictures of kittens and mom!
 
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aclmmb

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How old are the kittens today? I'll give you age/weight goals.
They're three and a half days old today - I'll post some pics later when I get a chance!
 

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A basic rule is to double the birth weight by the end of the first week. Ideally, a kitten should weigh 8 ounces by the end of week two, and 16 ounces at the four-week mark, then continue to gain a pound a month until the six-month mark. Of course, kittens may exceed this, and when they start out extra small they may need more time.
 
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This morning: she - swaying between 79 and 80g, he - 147g. Not calling victory yet, still some way to go, but have high hopes of getting her to near 120 by the end of the weekend, and him to 200 or close! Helps that their mother's mastitis has cleared up, so they have more nipple options on her, plus they're both so eager now they even suckle the syringe.

Pics as promised! Tiny baby asleep on my hand - think she thinks we're both her mother:

Little boy sleeping w his tongue out - his mother does it too:

Mum and babies:
 

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Yes! I'm hoping you can get the little female's weight up especially. She's stiil at a very low weight, but good they want to suckle the syringe. That makes supplementing easier. [emoji]128522[/emoji]
 
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aclmmb

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...The vet said she needs to be stopped from doing it, but she completely freaks out when I put it on her, even if I leave it for a while...
'she completely freaks out when I put *the cone* on her'
 

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Tricky.   What Im afraid, is the danger if they lick in this wound fluids - if they get infected.  And there is surely some bacteria and other nasty stuff, perhaps a little pus.

We could even get a peculiar poisoning we can see occasionally - the  biggest kittens collapes and dies.  Why?  The biggest kittens gets most of that infected milk...

So, I suspect my advice out of this dilemma is, you take the third way out.   You handraise them as well you can (and apparently you are doing it nicely), and let the momma heal all by herself.  Cone or without.
 
'she completely freaks out when I put *the cone* on her'
 
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