How to keep cats ... cats?

[arouetta]

You are right that I don't live there.  However there have been feral cats everywhere I have lived.  And one of those areas had both the SPCA and PETA giving out information on feral cat colonies, trap/alter/release, how feeding a population affects the size of the population and other statistics on feral colonies.  And both groups gave out similar information.  Since PETA's national headquarters was there and the SPCA had contracts with all the area cities/counties to be their shelter instead of the cities/counties having their own shelters (in fact, for a while the SPCA did animal control for all cities/counties there as well), I'm pretty sure the information they provided on feral cat colonies was accurate.

 

[surya]

 
You are right that I don't live there.  However there have been feral cats everywhere I have lived.  And one of those areas had both the SPCA and PETA giving out information on feral cat colonies, trap/alter/release, how feeding a population affects the size of the population and other statistics on feral colonies.  And both groups gave out similar information.  Since PETA's national headquarters was there and the SPCA had contracts with all the area cities/counties to be their shelter instead of the cities/counties having their own shelters (in fact, for a while the SPCA did animal control for all cities/counties there as well), I'm pretty sure the information they provided on feral cat colonies was accurate.

​Oh, your PETA pamphlet told you the cat population at my apartment  complex has increased. That explains it. I don't suffer fools gladly.

 

[Willowy]

PETA is rabidly anti-TNR. They prefer to kill all the animals they get their hands on.

 

[arouetta]

PETA is rabidly anti-TNR. They prefer to kill all the animals they get their hands on.

 Oh they had a black eye several times over where I lived.  But they did run a trap/alter/release program in the rural part of North Carolina.  And as I said, I was also getting information from the SPCA, who was working with the cities/counties to have an effective trap/alter/release program in those areas.  And the information they provided was not local in nature, it explained how things work with feral colonies in general.  The principles involving ratio of food sources to cats are mathematical and explained very well.

 

[Kieka]

Cats are cats. All cats have the ability to hunt, albeit some are rusty. I have a bottle baby who came to me at 4 weeks who is a mighty hunter all the time he is bringing things in. My sisters she got at 6 months from the shelter catches hummingbirds every few months. My girl who was feral until 4 months loves pouncing on lizards. My boy who came to me at 6 weeks is a dud, he takes his toys outside to hunt and brings them in proudly.

If we stopped feeding them many would die but as a species they would survive. If someone stopped feeding all the ferals they would survive or not indvidually but there still would be cats in cities just like nobody feeds the mice but they still survive. Some of those cats would be skinny, they would have injuries, they would not look as healthy, but they would live. I am not advocating that at all but I am trying to say that they wouldn't all vanish if we stopped caring for them. The feral one wouldn't even change much.

Cats choose to live with humans. Cats choose to stay. Does it change them some? Yes, it does. They live longer and are healthier. But it doesn't make them any less cats.

My cats respect me and the safety they get from me. So they obey some of my rules but in exchange I accomidate some of theirs. I pet the ones who like being pet. I don't pick them up if they don't like it. I don't force them to sleep with me, but when its cold they do. One of mine meows all the time but the other two barely make sounds beyond purring. The one who meows is just special and talks to himself when walking around so I am not sure if that would really be humanizing him other than I know meows are directed at me. I would consider that more as him feeling he is talking my language. I keep them in at nighy because I am tired of vet bills for night time mishaps but otherwise my cats have freedom and they keep coming back. They yell at me if I am off schedule with food, bedtime or don't meet their needs when they want.

So am I humanizing them or are they catimizing me? We cohabitate and respect each others boundaries. One could argue my cats change me as much as I change them with regards to day to day living. Fundamentally? There are probably somethings about me that would be different if I never had cats.

 

[maito]

I wondered about the same when I had to neuter my cat. As recommended as it is, it doesn't take away the fact that it is a procedure that mutilates a cat for the owners comfort, so they don't have to clean the cat's marking and because the probabilities of a happy come back home after an epic romance (run away in search for a mate) are minimum in an urban environment. As the vet explained it to me. Cats reproduce profusely because their chances of survival are really low, most male house cats have 3 months life expectancy after running away and for feral, the maximum is 3 years in the city. Their chances increase with a wilder setting since they hadn't evolved for concrete buildings and metal tubes.  I feel guilty ever since.

To silence that feeling I try to keep his instincts as much as I can. I feed him raw meat and dry food only as rewards. Before the cat, I only ate beef, but now, to give him fresh meat I had to eat smaller animals too like hare, chicken, and fish. I'm still not into buying mice for him, but I know other owners do. He does hunt. Every once in a while, he brings me a bird, or I discover a corpse when cleaning, other times I have to save the bird from his claws. Also as they are crepuscular animals, we walk at astronomical dawn, (almost night for humans), when there isn't much traffic, humans or dogs on the streets.

 

[arouetta]

Altering is not for the owner's comfort.  Intact cats tend to do each other a lot of damage during the actual mating process.  A show I watched had an intact female, she had horrible bite marks on the back of her neck that had abscessed because of males biting there during mating.  Two intact males going at it really, really hurt each other, plenty of blood flying.  And I was told that one of the biggest reasons my cat developed mammary cancer was because of the delayed spay, that had she been spayed as a kitten she most likely wouldn't have developed cancer.  So altering a cat reduces disease as well.

 

[di and bob]

I always feel sorry for those females being followed constantly and mated constantly because there are always several males. They get bit, and it hurts them to be held down like that.  I had a very young feral female that died from the constant mating, she was just too small to take it. One female I had gave birth to 17 kittens in one year before I finally caught and spayed her, I don't think there will ever be a shortage of cats. Every intact male I have cared for fights, gets abscesses and many lose an eye or an ear. From the HUNDREDS I have owned or taken care of they are ALWAYS happier, healthier and much calmer after being spayed or neutered, I have never seen an exception to this. 

 

[solomonar]

Question is why neuter indoor cats that are almost impossible to mate? Do we neuter such cats because we care for them? Or because we care for us? 

 

[greypaws]

IMO we neuter them because we care for the cat and the good health that this gives them. There are benefits to humans when done, so I don't think you can fully separate the two.

I think the problem with all your questions is that you can not use the same thinking for a domesticated animal that lives in your home and apply the same rules to an animal that lives in the wild. Yes we do certain things to make living with any animal peaceful, in turn there are benefits for that animal too. Think of it as two strangers living together, each brings something to the house (their own personality and ideas) and some compromises need to made, so they can live together peacefully. I don't think it is so different when we have a dog or cat live with humans.

 

[solomonar]

 
IMO we neuter them because we care for the cat and the good health that this gives them. There are benefits to humans when done, so I don't think you can fully separate the two.

I think the problem with all your questions is that you can not use the same thinking for a domesticated animal that lives in your home and apply the same rules to an animal that lives in the wild. Yes we do certain things to make living with any animal peaceful, in turn there are benefits for that animal too. Think of it as two strangers living together, each brings something to the house (their own personality and ideas) and some compromises need to made, so they can live together peacefully. I don't think it is so different when we have a dog or cat live with humans.

Indeed, domestic and wild animals are not the same thing. My questions arise because of the particular nature of a cat - in my view the cat can not be considered as a domestic animal. At least not in the same way we consider the cow (say) a domestic animal.

Is it cat still an wild animal despite sharing its habitat with humans?

To me, the case of the dog is somehow different, because the dog has a direct link with the human (same pack :-)) While the cat is neither inferior, nor superior to the human (owner). Also, the dog offers direct benefit to humans (at least in some cases, while the cat never does).

The old rationale of cats coming to the humans houses because of abundance of the vermins is no longer 100% true.

We buy the cat. But we do net the cat for direct benefits. We do not eat cats and we do not have vermins for her to catch. We just buy the cat and pet her! We buy (or adopt) a cat because ... we love the cats! We do not milk cats, we do not eat them (I hope so, at least...).

Is love sufficient to turn an wild cat into a domestic cat? All others being equal.

You say - we cant separate wild and domestic in the cat's nature. That is very logical. But how much wilderness causes the cat to be still an wild animal?

You see- one cannot be partially pregnant... :-)

 

[Kieka]

Indeed, domestic and wild animals are not the same thing. My questions arise because of the particular nature of a cat - in my view the cat can not be considered as a domestic animal. At least not in the same way we consider the cow (say) a domestic animal.

Is it cat still an wild animal despite sharing its habitat with humans?

To me, the case of the dog is somehow different, because the dog has a direct link with the human (same pack :-)) While the cat is neither inferior, nor superior to the human (owner). Also, the dog offers direct benefit to humans (at least in some cases, while the cat never does).

The old rationale of cats coming to the humans houses because of abundance of the vermins is no longer 100% true.

We buy the cat. But we do net the cat for direct benefits. We do not eat cats and we do not have vermins for her to catch. We just buy the cat and pet her! We buy (or adopt) a cat because ... we love the cats! We do not milk cats, we do not eat them (I hope so, at least...).

Is love sufficient to turn an wild cat into a domestic cat? All others being equal.

You say - we cant separate wild and domestic in the cat's nature. That is very logical. But how much wilderness causes the cat to be still an wild animal?

You see- one cannot be partially pregnant... :-)

It only takes a lack of human contact as a kitten to make a domestic cat feral. A feral cat lives apart and doesn't seek out humans unless the humans leave out food. Even then the human is just a food source. Sometimes, deoending on that ferals temperment, the human might become trusted enough to be pet by. But in general a feral with no human by its adulthood will not be able to be domesticated (even by 6 months sometimes it is too much nature to overcoming depending on the kitten).

If you take the example of the feral cat, we don't take any wildness out of cats. They trust us because of contact with us as kittens. They learn we are a food and safety location. They let us pet, cuddle with, and adapt to us because of that.

Does it make them less wild to have adapt to a softer life? When it only takes a generation to revert? And keep in mind that some strays become just as wild as a feral when left to fend for themselves.

I think one could reasonably argue that a cat is still a wild animal who chooses to live with humans for the benefits it brings them. Yes, they have been changed by humans too. But look at horses too.

How long have horses been domesticated? Yet all the wild Mustang herds in America are from domestic horses that got abandonded or loose. Are they any less wild for being descendent from domestic? Was the wild at their core taken out because of contact with humans? No.

 

[solomonar]

It only takes a lack of human contact as a kitten to make a domestic cat feral. A feral cat lives apart and doesn't seek out humans unless the humans leave out food. Even then the human is just a food source. Sometimes, deoending on that ferals temperment, the human might become trusted enough to be pet by. But in general a feral with no human by its adulthood will not be able to be domesticated (even by 6 months sometimes it is too much nature to overcoming depending on the kitten).

If you take the example of the feral cat, we don't take any wildness out of cats. They trust us because of contact with us as kittens. They learn we are a food and safety location. They let us pet, cuddle with, and adapt to us because of that.

Does it make them less wild to have adapt to a softer life? When it only takes a generation to revert? And keep in mind that some strays become just as wild as a feral when left to fend for themselves.

I think one could reasonably argue that a cat is still a wild animal who chooses to live with humans for the benefits it brings them. Yes, they have been changed by humans too. But look at horses too.

How long have horses been domesticated? Yet all the wild Mustang herds in America are from domestic horses that got abandonded or loose. Are they any less wild for being descendent from domestic? Was the wild at their core taken out because of contact with humans? No.

Horses are for riding. Some cultures use their milk as food. IMAO judging from this fact alone, they are domestic animals anyway.

If I correctly got your point, you basically say cats are 100% wild animals, because it is very easy to revert to the wild (feral cats).

But this opinion is the opposite to the one cats are domestic, because we have them leaving together with us and thus is not possible for a wild animal. Could anybody think to live together with a tiger? Yes, tigers are bigger. But if we go this way, it is like saying we adopt cats only because they are so little, and if the tigers would have been smaller, we were adopted them as well... 

They are plenty of other small mammals that are: cute and carnivors.  But the only one in hundred millions in our houses and no single individual in the wild (ferals are something else) is... pam-pam... cat.

 

[catapault]

I did not read through this entire thread so please excuse me if I am repeating something previously discussed.

There was a fantastic Russian program working with silver foxes from a fur farm. Those with lower fear / panic, backing into rear of cage and snarling, were selected as the starting point. Each generation was in turn selected for the least aggressive / wild. Amazingly, within not too many generations there were tame, friendly foxes with - ready for this? - curly tails, patchy coat color, who eagerly sought human company. They were, in every sense, domesticated.

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160912-a-soviet-scientist-created-the-only-tame-foxes-in-the-world

Similar program breeding for nice rats, nasty rats: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/health/25rats.html

A long time ago I had a pet skunk, bought at a pet store, no doubt from a fur farm. He became tame, affectionate, housebroken to a litter pan. Was he domesticated? No.

 

[Willowy]

Actually fur farm skunks are somewhat domesticated. One marker of domestication is coming in specially bred coat colors, and skunks do! They have lavender and apricot and champagne. . .very interesting.

But, yes, selective breeding is important for temperament. This is easy to see in just a few generations if you breed rodents. Lab rats have been bred to be docile, but some snake food breeders don't select for temperment, and it's easy to see the difference in the rats. With cats, I would say that a Persian is fully domesticated. It's not likely many purebred Persians would survive very long in the wild. One raised without human contact would be unsocialized with humans, scared, but probably not as wild as a moggie would be. But average moggies (and some other purebreds like Maine Coons) come from a tougher background of strays and farmcats.

I think tigers and cats have similar temperaments, only a size difference. A housecat would be quite dangerous if he weighed 400 pounds! And a tiger raised around humans would make a fine housepet if he weighed 10 pounds.

 

[catapault]

I had my pet skunk several decades ago. At that point there were no color phase options, just the basic black and white model.

 

[Kieka]

Horses are for riding. Some cultures use their milk as food. IMAO judging from this fact alone, they are domestic animals anyway.

If I correctly got your point, you basically say cats are 100% wild animals, because it is very easy to revert to the wild (feral cats).

But this opinion is the opposite to the one cats are domestic, because we have them leaving together with us and thus is not possible for a wild animal. Could anybody think to live together with a tiger? Yes, tigers are bigger. But if we go this way, it is like saying we adopt cats only because they are so little, and if the tigers would have been smaller, we were adopted them as well...  :cat:

They are plenty of other small mammals that are: cute and carnivors.  But the only one in hundred millions in our houses and no single individual in the wild (ferals are something else) is... pam-pam... cat.

I think the problem is thinking that domestic means they don't have the ability to revert to wild. Domestic means that humans keep, breed and change somehow within that process. Yes, they depend on humans for food and safety but that doesn't mean they can't survive without humans.

I am not saying cats with human contact are 100% wild but they still maintain their wildness in their core. I don't think you can say that domestic=lack of wildness.

 

[arouetta]

A cat, by current scientific definition, is a domesticated animal.  It is a newer domesticated animal in comparison to the dog, but it is still domesticated.  There is some current debate as to how far back cats were domesticated as there is new evidence in Cypress that pushes the date of domestication to the neolithic period, around 9500 years ago.  But DNA comparisons between 6 cat breeds, 2 different wild cat species and other animals (both wild and domestic) show changes in the brain connected with memory, fear-conditioning and stimulus-reward learning.

So they are not wild animals being brought into the home like ferrets or snakes are.  They are domesticated, they have DNA changes that made the domestication possible, and part of that domestication is the expectation of getting treats from us (stimulus-reward learning).

Solomonar, I'm not sure what question you are asking that has you stumped or what view you are trying to promote.  In some posts you say that you don't consider cats to be domestication, despite scientific proof, but in others you argue against saying cats aren't domesticated.  Despite the very easy to find research that shows certain medical interventions are beneficial to the cat, you argue that it's done solely for human benefit.  If you could, can you clarify your position and the question you are asking?  Or was this a thread created just for the purpose of arguing for the fun of it?

 

[Willowy]

So they are not wild animals being brought into the home like ferrets or snakes are.

Ferrets (the type kept as pets) are fully domesticated and do not exist in the wild :dk:. Some say they were domesticated before cats. . .certainly there are records of them being selectively bred before any records of selective breeding of cats. I used to have ferrets. . .gotta debunk those misconceptions .

Snakes are wild, yes, as are birds and fish and lizards :tongue2:.

Some say that one indicator of domestication is whether the animal will grow up tame if raised by its own mother. Usually wild animals must be bottle-fed (or in the case of birds, hand-fed) to be truly tame as an adult. So, because kittens can grow up tame if raised by a tame mother, they do count as domesticated.

 

[solomonar]

To @ arouetta

There is no "black or white".

Different people have different views on the cat's nature. 

The approach to the cat's wilderness is relevant in my opinion to the way we care the cat. And to the particular relation we have to this species. You are right in saying that I have no hared opinion on whether the cat is domisticated or not. My approach to this subject is very scientific and therefore in absence of clear evidences - I am hesitant. 

My point is to discuss the subject - to accept any view, including the esoteric ones.

You see, I guess we all share the same strange feeling when looking to our cats: they are not just animals like - say- cows, dogs or whatever. There is a feeling of unconditioned affection (same may even say love) that makes the cat to occupy a very distinct place in our thoughts.

I dare to say that this particular position of the cat is grounded in the wild side the cat preserves in a more proportion than the other animals living with us, the humans (domestic animals lets say).  You are right to blame me saying that I still not have a clear, sound  position on this, however. But you see, I do not want to defend my position and I do not want to embrace a certain narrow view on this subject. I shape my view while reading the other's opinions, I enjoy people taking their time to write on this subject, which is not a concrete one, whatsoever. 

BTW, we, the humans, we preserve a wild side as well, dont you think? Is it the particular relation we have with the cat caused by this wild-to-wild  sui-generis - communication?