How do you cats react to "punishment"?

[kittens mom]

 
I have successfully used a "hiss" to correct behavior in my cats.   Not loud but forceful.    The first  time I did it  (I've used it on two cats) each cat seemed stunned.  Only took a couple of times and the behavior stopped.   I think it works because you are mimicing  another cat's form of discipline.

Please no shock collar!

I think every cat owner has hissed at some point.  I base my arguments on real life experience and have seen how shock collars are used. I repeat if I knew of someone using a shock collar on a cat I would call the humane society and report it for them to investigate. There are lots of pet owners who troll online and brick and mortar stores looking for ways to fix their pets behaviors and yet almost all behavior problems originate with their human owners or the failure to provide modifications in their homes for the cat. How many episodes of MCFH have you watched where the cats were ready to be tossed out ( another way bad pet owners deal with a cat) or taken to the shelter and yet the cat had not one toy, vertical space, window or even toy or a litterbox so filthy or in a place where the cat simply felt insecure. JG has never worked a miracle he is just very polite and doesn't call the cat owners what I do on my side of the screen. Nasty little children usually have either nasty parents or negligent ones. Shock collars are the short cut or the lazy man's way to control a dog. Using them on a cat is abuse. And I don't care what anyone else thinks on this one.

 

[kittens mom]

 

[talkingpeanut]

Shocking a cat that you want to hunt for you sounds deeply counter productive.

 

[Willowy]

Like I said, all about ego. Big manly man hurts a weaker being! Wooo!

 

[Kat0121]

I have an idea. Buy the collar, put it on yourself and let someone give you a good shock with it when you do something they don't like then come back to us and let us know how that worked out. 

If this is the way you plan to handle things, please do the cat a favor and rehome her as you clearly have no regard for her as anything more than a "thing" and do not consider her to be a member of the family. A Chia Pet would likely be a better fit for you. 

 

[basschick]

 
He responds to "voice of authority" too, by lying close to the ground/in the corner/rolling on the floor and refusing to be picked up (so he can't be put out of the room) . He might be thinking "Oh your 'authoritative voice' will never hurt me and see you were just falling in my trap and paying attention to me! I won!" 

  

i've been using that voice successfully with cats and kids for decades. they stop what they're doing immediately, but i've never had a cat (or kid, for that matter) who behaved with any fear of me, and none dealt with it by showing submissive behavior. 

i can't quickly find the post that says cats are not equivalent to kids, but to me, any feeling being deserves the same level of care and respect.

 
I'm not sure any of them deliver an actual shock. Professional dog trainers can get amazing results with them. Most dog owners not so much. They are not meant to substitute actual training which is exactly what the armchair trainer does. A dog living with a device on 24/7 becomes a time bomb. Cats react poorly to discipline and unlike dogs will practice avoidance of humans , they are not genetically bred to be human submissive. 

just looked a couple up, and they couldn't be more clear that they deliver actual shocks.

 

[kittens mom]

 
i've been using that voice successfully with cats and kids for decades. they stop what they're doing immediately, but i've never had a cat (or kid, for that matter) who behaved with any fear of me, and none dealt with it by showing submissive behavior. 

i can't quickly find the post that says cats are not equivalent to kids, but to me, any feeling being deserves the same level of care and respect.

just looked a couple up, and they couldn't be more clear that they deliver actual shocks.

I was only familiar with the bark collars. yes indeed they do have actual shock collars. Some of them quite high. I also spent some time reading a brief study and the stress they cause chemically in dogs subjected to these training methods.

 

[Norachan]

Mod Note

Just a reminder to stay on topic in this thread. 

Thank you.

 

[samuel medina]

Sheesh, folks. Not everyone sees animals as people.... because they aren't people. I've tested a shock collar on myself out of curiosity.. it doesn't hurt, and human skin is pretty delicate by comparison.

Different training tools aren't about ego, they're about different approaches. Any tool can be abused.

 

[Anne]

 
Sheesh, folks. Not everyone sees animals as people.... because they aren't people. I've tested a shock collar on myself out of curiosity.. it doesn't hurt, and human skin is pretty delicate by comparison.

Different training tools aren't about ego, they're about different approaches. Any tool can be abused.

Cats are definitely not people, I agree. They are not like dogs either. I do see what you're saying about how any tool can be abused and I agree. You can abuse a pet with no tools as well. Just shouting at them regularly would achieve that.

That said, as you found out, as a community we are very committed to cat welfare and care. Part of that is rejecting anything remotely like a shock collar for cats, so even if your comments on using one were semi-flippant, people are going to react to that. Some things you just can't joke about here, I'm afraid

. Not when it comes to caring for our kitties. 

 

Anyone who's interested in the topic, we have an article about what does and doesn't work for behavior modification in cats. If you read it, you'll see that the point isn't just to change the cat's behavior in a certain way. You could achieve that with negative reinforcement, yes, but you have to consider the cost to the cat's overall well-being and to your connection with that cat. If you want to change the behavior of a cat while still having a good loving relationship with a well-adjusted cat, then positive reinforcement is the way to go.

 

[rogerniris]

 
Cats are definitely not people, I agree. They are not like dogs either. I do see what you're saying about how any tool can be abused and I agree. You can abuse a pet with no tools as well. Just shouting at them regularly would achieve that.

That said, as you found out, as a community we are very committed to cat welfare and care. Part of that is rejecting anything remotely like a shock collar for cats, so even if your comments on using one were semi-flippant, people are going to react to that. Some things you just can't joke about here, I'm afraid

. Not when it comes to caring for our kitties. 

 

Anyone who's interested in the topic, we have an article about what does and doesn't work for behavior modification in cats. If you read it, you'll see that the point isn't just to change the cat's behavior in a certain way. You could achieve that with negative reinforcement, yes, but you have to consider the cost to the cat's overall well-being and to your connection with that cat. If you want to change the behavior of a cat while still having a good loving relationship with a well-adjusted cat, then positive reinforcement is the way to go.

I think cats response differently to different negative feedbacks (I won't use "punishment" since it may cause misunderstanding). Whether we should take certain measures may depend on the cat and situations. As long as the measure is not harmful to them, effective and does not hurt our relationship, I think it's fine to use it sometimes even if it falls into the "negative" category.

For example, we blow air on their face when they jump to our dinner table when we're eating. This is very effective to make them step back without us "pushing" them or picking them up. And after a few times they won't come up. I also heard that blowing air mimics the air puffing in hissing. Cats hiss to another cat when the latter enters their territory and that's a gesture cats understand (- 'the table is our territory. Do not enter'). I don't see any sign of them getting more stressed or loving us less after we do that. This method is more effective to our male cat because he is more sensitive to air; our female not so much so every now and then we need to pick her up and put her down. Unfortunately picking her up when she's not willing to always result in her biting us, but we haven't figured out a better way (we don't want to use cat deterrent). If we can "blow" her off the table, it'll be a better alternative than picking her up. So I don't think this air puffing/blowing is necessarily bad in all situations. 

Also, cats hate being ignored. I think when they decide to use negative reinforcement to train us (do bad things to force us to do what they want), we can use this strategy to stop the bad behaviors - a strategy some people may consider to be "negative" and "bad for the relationship". When my female first came, she scratched on our bedroom door all night wanting to come in (we have everything - except us - outside the room and we can't allow them in our bedroom during nights for good reasons). We tried every method and it was ignoring her that finally made her (almost) quit this habit. Sometimes when my male cat scratches on my chair, I will put him out of the room for a few minutes. It's a way to separate him from the chair and give him the negative feedback to let him know his current behavior is not desired (he obviously hates being ignored and will try very cute tricks to avoid it). We will pet him or play with him after we let him in, not when he's scratching, because that only makes him use his negative reinforcement more. (P.S. negative reinforcement and negative feedback are different things. The former reinforce certain behaviors (they reinforce us) and the latter stops certain behaviors (we stop them)). Good thing is he did it less these two days - a result of combination of negative and positive feedbacks (I pet him before he can come to the chair or after I put him out and let him in again).

 

[Anne]

I think you bring up an important point, @RogernIris. I totally agree that different cats respond in different ways. A lot depends on the situation, including the personality of the cat and that of the owner. I've heard of many cases where spraying with water was effective and didn't cause any adverse side effects. I still would never recommend it on the board and you can see me - and others - butt in when someone does 

 Why? Because even though it may be ok with certain cats, certain people and certain situations, it still has the potential to be fairly devastating in other situations. Either when used the wrong way or when used on the wrong type of cat. We can never assume that the person on the other side of the computer has the same level of expertise. I apologize if that sounds condescending but that's the reality of things and we have a commitment to prevent unintended cat abuse. And using anything that scares a cat or causes it discomfort has the built-in potential to be abusive,whether or not that's actually the intention of the person using it (and it often is).

I'm glad things worked out for you and your kitties. Sounds like you know your cats well and have a good grasp of what might be too stressful for them. Not all people do, unfortunately. When they don't, things can get a whole lot worse with some behavior modification techniques than with others.

Last, but not least, people tend to focus on behavior modification techniques and forget about the cat's initial need that triggers the behavior. We usually think like people, and not like cats 

 In my experience, half the battle is won through understanding the cat's needs and providing a suitable alternative which actually meets them. I realize you probably agree and weren't discussing that aspect, but I think it's worth mentioning in the context of how to reply to threads about behavior problems here on the forums.

 

[rogerniris]

 
I think you bring up an important point, @RogernIris. I totally agree that different cats respond in different ways. A lot depends on the situation, including the personality of the cat and that of the owner. I've heard of many cases where spraying with water was effective and didn't cause any adverse side effects. I still would never recommend it on the board and you can see me - and others - butt in when someone does 

 Why? Because even though it may be ok with certain cats, certain people and certain situations, it still has the potential to be fairly devastating in other situations. Either when used the wrong way or when used on the wrong type of cat. We can never assume that the person on the other side of the computer has the same level of expertise. I apologize if that sounds condescending but that's the reality of things and we have a commitment to prevent unintended cat abuse. And using anything that scares a cat or causes it discomfort has the built-in potential to be abusive,whether or not that's actually the intention of the person using it (and it often is).

I'm glad things worked out for you and your kitties. Sounds like you know your cats well and have a good grasp of what might be too stressful for them. Not all people do, unfortunately. When they don't, things can get a whole lot worse with some behavior modification techniques than with others.

Last, but not least, people tend to focus on behavior modification techniques and forget about the cat's initial need that triggers the behavior. We usually think like people, and not like cats 

 In my experience, half the battle is won through understanding the cat's needs and providing a suitable alternative which actually meets them. I realize you probably agree and weren't discussing that aspect, but I think it's worth mentioning in the context of how to reply to threads about behavior problems here on the forums.

Thanks for the reply! I totally understand your choice here. I'm glad that I read enough on this forum (and Google) during the first a few months since I adopted my first two cats to know these basic principles you mentioned about cats, like know the triggers of bad behaviors first, positive feedbacks work better, etc. It did a lot good in helping me (as a first time cat owner) to form a good relationship with them. Thanks for providing the education about cats here to help more people like me! 

 

Happy New Year!

 

[kittens mom]

Humans send mixed signals to their pets. On one hand they want them to be available to love on and play with at the humans convenience and out of the way when you are busy or just don't want to interact.  People get a puppy or kitten and carry it around like a baby and then are surprised when they start having behavior issues at 6-12 months. If you create a dependent monkey on your back you have no one to blame but yourself.

Pets that come from shelters may be victims of abuse or neglect or have never been properly socialized. They need security and routine.

The relationship between a cat and its human guardian is unique and a joint enterprise. A little bit of tolerance goes a long way.

If you cat is insistent on being on your computer table/desk/counters your only real recourse is to provide them a shelf or vertical space where they can see what's going on.

When Mercy had a bout of middening we seen it for what it was. the babies encroaching on everything so we cleaned it up with enzyme cleaner and added more vertical spaces and made some hidey boxes with cushions in out of the way places. No disciple just observation. And that will solve a lot of your cat behavior problems.

Ours have the choice of sleeping with us or not.

Keep food off your counters or in animal proof containers and don't feed your pet table scraps. If you treat your pet with their favorite human food do so in a bowl at their eating station.

Only a fool allows their pets to run rampant and destroy everything from floor to ceiling. Young animals have bendy minds and the first course of action should be redirection. Our kits now 17 weeks are learning the NO. They are just now able to process something beyond the moment and their instinct to run after everything. With very young animals it's your job to protect them from their environment.

The reasons animals/cats behave they way they do are complex but the actual methods of training are fairly simple to apply. You don't have to know how all the components of your computer works just the basic software that you use to operate it.

When someone brings up something like a shock collar for a cat it is irresponsible to condone it in any way in fact it needs to be discredited to the fullest. For every person that posts something there are many that google an answer and TCS comes up frequently. What's being posted here are not private conversations. Any one getting the idea that using a shock collar to control their cat and using one made for a dog could injure their cat , end up with other pets, children or themselves being the victims of misdirected aggression. I started writing this yesterday and wasn't going to post it. Anne though is 100% correct in the need to be cautious and responsible in what we as a community condone.

 

[Graceful-Lily]

Punishment doesn't exist with my girls because they are almost always well behaved and if they do anything, it isn't so bad that I have to punish them. Felix on the other hand is a wild child. He is spoiled. He is OBSESSED with crinkly sounding things. If I have aluminum foil on the table and he wants it, he's going to go on the table for it. And even when I try to punish him, he's very revengeful and I'm afraid of what he's going to do to me half of the time so I just leave him be. Ugh.. can't win. Especially when I'm about to scold him and he looks me in the eyes and say, "Muuurahh?" I just walk away.