How do you cats react to "punishment"?

[rogerniris]

Thanks for looking through the posts

He's 2.5-year-old now and super active. I asked a question here before on how to deal with his activeness (http://www.thecatsite.com/t/331055/should-i-get-a-playmate-for-my-super-playful-cat#post_4158430). Below are from my old post to describe how we play with him:

We have a bunch of toys... we already built them a "box castle" with 8 connected boxes and they climb in it from time to time. Other toys include all the automatic/semi-automatic toys you mentioned plus SmartyKat Electronic Concealed Motion Cat Toy, not to mention all the wand toys, catnip toys, stuffed toys, laser, balls, feather toys, tunnels, you name it. He is a true hunter and likes the things that move and allow him to ambush and then jump onto it, such as hexbug, concealed motion toy, Turbo, laser, and he LOVES fishing rod types of toys, which we have three.

We have much more than 2 play sessions with him every day. We're out for work 5-7 hours per day. When we're home, we will play with him basically every time he comes to us and we need a stretch from sitting in front of the computer for too long. It probably encourages him to come to us more often... Usually we play with him with fishing rod toys/laser ( (seriously, every time he plays with them he could jump 5 feet in the air. He does not care how he could land at all!)) or fetching -  except that he has not learned to fetch the toys yet, only run to the toys and wait for us to throw him a treat Sometimes he will run along with us, so we could spend 10min running around the apartment with him. If we don't feel like standing up, we would give him the automatic toys and supervise him playing it. He also loves to wrestling and chasing with Iris, which he did not enjoy that much when they first came here. Basically he likes to do things that involve big movement. We suspect he was a outdoor/indoor cat before we adopted him and requires much more exercise than a pure indoor cat. That can explain his energy level and the fact that he is still a bit chubby even with so much exercise. 

We trimmed his nail regularly but not very too often. He hates it and we can barely hold him tight for nail trimming (he is very strong). But every time we did nail trimming we were relieved for our chair for a while, and... when he saw we were not responding to his scratching he will turn to something else that we hate and have to respond (like walking on and lying on our computer, or rubbing us to make static electricity shock 

). He's playing this little game with us to get our attention. 

 

[kittens mom]

 
Thanks for looking through the posts

He's 2.5-year-old now and super active. I asked a question here before on how to deal with his activeness (http://www.thecatsite.com/t/331055/should-i-get-a-playmate-for-my-super-playful-cat#post_4158430). Below are from my old post to describe how we play with him:

We have a bunch of toys... we already built them a "box castle" with 8 connected boxes and they climb in it from time to time. Other toys include all the automatic/semi-automatic toys you mentioned plus SmartyKat Electronic Concealed Motion Cat Toy, not to mention all the wand toys, catnip toys, stuffed toys, laser, balls, feather toys, tunnels, you name it. He is a true hunter and likes the things that move and allow him to ambush and then jump onto it, such as hexbug, concealed motion toy, Turbo, laser, and he LOVES fishing rod types of toys, which we have three.

We have much more than 2 play sessions with him every day. We're out for work 5-7 hours per day. When we're home, we will play with him basically every time he comes to us and we need a stretch from sitting in front of the computer for too long. It probably encourages him to come to us more often... Usually we play with him with fishing rod toys/laser ( (seriously, every time he plays with them he could jump 5 feet in the air. He does not care how he could land at all!)) or fetching -  except that he has not learned to fetch the toys yet, only run to the toys and wait for us to throw him a treat Sometimes he will run along with us, so we could spend 10min running around the apartment with him. If we don't feel like standing up, we would give him the automatic toys and supervise him playing it. He also loves to wrestling and chasing with Iris, which he did not enjoy that much when they first came here. Basically he likes to do things that involve big movement. We suspect he was a outdoor/indoor cat before we adopted him and requires much more exercise than a pure indoor cat. That can explain his energy level and the fact that he is still a bit chubby even with so much exercise. 

We trimmed his nail regularly but not very too often. He hates it and we can barely hold him tight for nail trimming (he is very strong). But every time we did nail trimming we were relieved for our chair for a while, and... when he saw we were not responding to his scratching he will turn to something else that we hate and have to respond (like walking on and lying on our computer, or rubbing us to make static electricity shock 

). He's playing this little game with us to get our attention. 

Some cats love the big exercise wheels. We have considered one but they are so expensive for one that is safe we hesitate. I'd love to get one for a few weeks and see if our cats took to them. We have bird feeders by every window. They are probably the best thing ever. True cat TV. You can look into puzzle toys.

 

[rogerniris]

Yes I definitely enjoy this process of forming the bond with him! He trusts us so much so he's never really afraid of our "unpleasant punishment". We want to give him everything he wants. But we do have this dilemma that we sometimes can't give him our full attention with so much work to do (we're young researchers and have many projects to do). I think this is a process for us to learn to strike a balance between our work and our relationship with him. I think he's (hopefully) learning how much we can give him too (in terms of time and attention). He was not a cuddler but now he spends more timing lying besides us, holding our arm and lying his head on my lap, and enjoy the peaceful moment. I really love him.  Thanks for sharing your experience with me

 

[rogerniris]

 
Some cats love the big exercise wheels. We have considered one but they are so expensive for one that is safe we hesitate. I'd love to get one for a few weeks and see if our cats took to them. We have bird feeders by every window. They are probably the best thing ever. True cat TV. You can look into puzzle toys.

Yeah we're planning to get cat TV according to an advice we got from this forum. We can't get an exercise wheel in our small apartment now but I'll keep that in mind. (I didn't realize I could quote your words to reply. I clicked on the "reply" button. I guess some of the previous posts are a little confusing. I meant to reply to every post people have above..)

 

[rogerniris]

One thing to share (not related to this topic). He responds to my EVERY call of his name (not so much to my husband's ;p ), either making a raising-tone voice as if asking me "what's up?", or running all over across the apartment to check me out. Most of time he follows me around the apartment. If he's not, I can always catch him staring at me from distance and if I hide from him when he's staring, he will run over to me with this cute sounds as if he's worried about me. I never know a cat can be like this.. like a dog or a small kid. I LOVE HIM (and my husband is jealous 

)

 

[kittens mom]

 
Yeah we're planning to get cat TV according to an advice we got from this forum. We can't get an exercise wheel in our small apartment now but I'll keep that in mind. (I didn't realize I could quote your words to reply. I clicked on the "reply" button. I guess some of the previous posts are a little confusing. I meant to reply to every post people have above..)

 
One thing to share (not related to this topic). He responds to my EVERY call of his name (not so much to my husband's ;p ), either making a raising-tone voice as if asking me "what's up?", or running all over across the apartment to check me out. Most of time he follows me around the apartment. If he's not, I can always catch him staring at me from distance and if I hide from him when he's staring, he will run over to me with this cute sounds as if he's worried about me. I never know a cat can be like this.. like a dog or a small kid. I LOVE HIM (and my husband is jealous 

)

Your cat loves you. Make sure to make eye contact and do a slow blink and see if you get the love back. 

 

[rogerniris]

 
Your cat loves you. Make sure to make eye contact and do a slow blink and see if you get the love back. 

My female cat knows this trick but not him. He just stares at you to death 

 

[samuel medina]

Not so sure that 'shock collars  should be banned.'

Any training tool can be abused. I've seen dogs with lacerations from an ordinary flat collar. Clicker trainers have been known to treat dogs into obesity. I've zapped myself  with a shock collar. It doesn't actually hurt. It is surprising, and if used properly, can be a great tool. I know a presa who gets excited when she sees the collar because she knows it's time to work, and she loves to work. I've also seen one who cowers when shown a shock collar because his owner probably used the highest setting.

A high quality shock collar on the vibrate setting (no shock) might work well for a cat.

 

[kittens mom]

 
Not so sure that 'shock collars should be banned.'

Any training tool can be abused. I've seen dogs with lacerations from an ordinary flat collar. Clicker trainers have been known to treat dogs into obesity. I've zapped myself  with a shock collar. It doesn't actually hurt. It is surprising, and if used properly, can be a great tool. I know a presa who gets excited when she sees the collar because she knows it's time to work, and she loves to work. I've also seen one who cowers when shown a shock collar because his owner probably used the highest setting.

A high quality shock collar on the vibrate setting (no shock) might work well for a cat.

Shock collars are not going to work with cats and in fact will probably yield all kinds of behavior issues. Redirection and clicker training are highly effective. You can train a dog to do many things. The shock collar used correctly is reinforcement. Cats operate on instinct. So you work from that not from the type of obedience training you use on a dog. If I knew of someone using a shock collar on a cat I would call the humane society and report them.

 

[samuel medina]

You'd report someone for having a different way of seeing things. How tolerant of you.

 

[basschick]

for decades scientists believed that cats weren't as smart as dogs because they react so differently to stimulus and the same types of training.  cats didn't react well to the training tools that worked on dogs, so the scientists believed they were basically stupid.  they aren't. 

but as far as causing a shock - which is why it's called a shock collar - for misbehavior, since it won't work, it's only abusive and futile, as well.  and i, too, believe that using a device to cause an animal in your care pain should be banned.  a vibrating collar for dogs?  maybe, but giving them a shock?  would you put a shock collar on your misbehaving kids?  if not, why would you use it on another helpless being in your control?  if so, be aware that child protective services would have something to say about that.

 

[samuel medina]

Oddly enough, cats do 'punish' each other and learn boundaries within a cat colony, or Cat Room 2 at a local shelter. Snickers was the alpha of that room and, from what I've been told was a bit of a bully there... so they do seem to understand dominance at the very least.

So far, Snickers seems to understand 'no' and seems to know 'hey!' means not to do whatever she's doing. She also seems to understand the tone of 'Don't be bad.' I don't 'punish' her per se, but I'll remove her from my ottoman if she's swiped at me, or not share a snack if she's been bad (safe snacks only, of course). When she's good, I'll play with her or toss her a bit of cooked chicken etc.

 

[kittens mom]

 
You'd report someone for having a different way of seeing things. How tolerant of you.

I am never tolerant of abuse. Lifetime of training horses and I've worked with dogs. Cats are far more intelligent than dogs and easier to train through behavior modification and redirection. They are not motivated by resource guarding.

I reported my neighbor over 50 times last summer for nonstop dog barking. Rather than take her dogs in at night or even confine them to her home they put ' bark collars' on them. I don't particularly like dogs but thought it was cruel and lazy to simply stick a device on an animal rather than use time and reliable training methods to deal with her dogs barking issues. Of course training an animal takes things like time and putting down your phone or turning off the TV and having actual interaction . Cats respond wonderfully to clicker training. I would never advocate using a ' shock collar' on a cat in an open forum like this because 99% of the people using them misuse them on dogs.

 

[kittens mom]

 
for decades scientists believed that cats weren't as smart as dogs because they react so differently to stimulus and the same types of training.  cats didn't react well to the training tools that worked on dogs, so the scientists believed they were basically stupid.  they aren't. 

but as far as causing a shock - which is why it's called a shock collar - for misbehavior, since it won't work, it's only abusive and futile, as well.  and i, too, believe that using a device to cause an animal in your care pain should be banned.  a vibrating collar for dogs?  maybe, but giving them a shock?  would you put a shock collar on your misbehaving kids?  if not, why would you use it on another helpless being in your control?  if so, be aware that child protective services would have something to say about that.

I'm not sure any of them deliver an actual shock. Professional dog trainers can get amazing results with them. Most dog owners not so much. They are not meant to substitute actual training which is exactly what the armchair trainer does. A dog living with a device on 24/7 becomes a time bomb. Cats react poorly to discipline and unlike dogs will practice avoidance of humans , they are not genetically bred to be human submissive. 

 

[samuel medina]

Where do you get that 99% figure? Such hyperbole.

BTW Cats are not more intelligent than dogs. Studies have proven them to be otherwise.

Positive-only training doesn't work with every animal. A nice plushy pomeranian would be a great candidate for clicker training, while an extremely hard-headed presa canario wouldn't. In my experiments with Snickers so far, positive only doesn't work. She'll hiss at you while holding the treat you just gave her between her teeth, and will try to swat you right after you just gave her some chicken if you're sitting where she wants to be.

With a more dominant approach she behaves much better. Nothing harsh.... for example, when she wanted my spot on the bed and raised her paw like she was going to swat, I raised my hand in a clawlike posture to mirror her impending swat, and she backed down. She has behaved much better since.

I am starting to think many behavior problems in cats occur because cat owners let their cat take charge. Not happening here. She can behave, or become a barn cat.

She's only an animal, not an equal.

 

 

[samuel medina]

 Child Protective Services is a false equivalency. A cat is not the equal of a child.

 

[Willowy]

Positive training works for all dogs. And other animals too. If you bully a Presa you will probably lose an arm. I hate to see people attempt to bully their dog, the dog bites them (fully justified) and they kill the dog . I would say that the majority of dog aggression toward humans is caused by bullying training methods. Usually people who bully their dogs also bully their kids and other people, and also, ironically, will get violent with anyone who challenges THEM, but will kill their dog for defending himself. It's all about ego. But anyway.

Don't use a shock collar on a cat. And, yes, shock collars most certainly shock. The new kinds have many more levels than the old fry-'em collars but that doesn't change the fact that they do shock. I mean, if someone wants to thoughfully use punishment to solve a serious behavior problem, they certainly can, but let's not lie about what actually happens.

The purpose of reporting concerning behavior to the appropriate agencies is for them to investigate. It's not the burden of the general public to decide what's abuse and what's not. That's the agency's burden. So we report, they investigate. It's never wrong to make a report.

 

[samuel medina]

ROFL @ bully. Correction and bulying are two very different things. I know quite a few people who train presas using e-collars with great results. Any tool can be abused. Believing the tool is the problem is like believing guns cause crime or spoons make people fat..

 

[Willowy]

Yes, and there are many fine trainers who do not use punishment in dog training, who put titles on their dogs, powerful breeds and all. A skilled trainer can use punishment without being a bully, although the majority of regular dog owners who try to use punishment do end up bullying. Just so it's understood that it's a CHOICE they make to train that way, and not a necessity. But this is not a dog training forum, I'm sure you can find plenty of arguments on those forums if you like .

 

[theyremine]

I have successfully used a "hiss" to correct behavior in my cats.   Not loud but forceful.    The first  time I did it  (I've used it on two cats) each cat seemed stunned.  Only took a couple of times and the behavior stopped.   I think it works because you are mimicing  another cat's form of discipline.

Please no shock collar!