How do I know when to separate my cats and when to let them be?

[tkvei]

Hi,

Our older cat is around 3 years old right now, and a couple of months ago we got a kitten. We introduced them slowly, not letting the kitten out of the bedroom for 2 weeks and then letting him out but putting him in a play pen for a few days, and now we let him out to wander the house.
Our older cat does not seem very happy with this. She will hide away in her spot (a pillow on a desk behind a laptop my partner uses and can "protect her) and stay there while he's out. She's basically the same size as him by now (she was the runt of the litter). We think she might just be unsure how to interact with other cats as she was taken away from her mom a bit too early we think, and being the runt might have been neglected. She also had cat flu when we got her so just a rough kittenhood for her.
He gets very excited when playing and sometimes jumps up to her spot and tries to investigate (and displayed some mating behaviors until recently - he got neutered Friday). He has not once displayed any aggressive body language towards her and is always chirping when he's coming up to her. We usually put him away when he jumps up to her space and let him chill out for a bit, but we have been trying to see how it would develop if we didn't.
He sniffs her and even tries licking her, but she's growling/hissing at him the whole time (although her ears are not tucked back and looks like it's more of a warning rather than proper aggression). Sometimes it looks like he bites her, and she screams, but it looks like he's being playful whereas she's just terrified and freaking out. Eventually she tries to run away after kind of snapping her jaw at him and pawing him a few times and he chases her until she gets to her litter box and hides inside it. He will just sit on the box looking at her growling but not go inside with her.
We honestly can't handle living like this for much longer as he has to be kept in a room and cries all the time when by himself. During the night he gets bored and starts trying to play with us while we sleep, so we end up sleeping on the couch to get some rest. Hopefully we can get them to get along or at least tolerate each other but if that does not happen we will have to give him away which we want to avoid.
Should we just leave them be and let them sort themselves out, letting him chase her around the house but keeping an eye on them so that she doesn't hurt him in self defense (or he doesn't suddenly get aggressive) ? Or should we keep putting him away when he goes up to "harass" her? Or only put him away when she hides in her litter box to keep it as her ultimate "safe space"?

 

[ArtNJ]

Its very unlikely that the older cat will hurt the kitten. She is scared, doesn't remotely want to physically engage and any swats will be "get away" swats. Indeed, if the older cat were more willing to physical, the situation would be better -- where the older cat is willing to be assertive and pin an annoying kitten, you tend to not have these problems. But these problems are very common. One doesn't need an unusual background for this or a tiny adult -- any adult cat (especially older ones, but even three year olds like yours), even huge adults, can have this odd thing where they seem afraid of the kitten. Of course, your adult cat's tiny size and background probably aren't helping. Time together is really the only thing that helps these things. Unfortunately, in the short and even medium term, your adult cat is likely to be more unhappy, not less. And this is not terribly likely to be one where they can get to friendship. Inching towards toleration, however, is quite possible and most likely. You will need to watch your adult for signs of extreme stress like not eating, using the litter box, hots spots and the like. But those are rare. The more likely scenario is "just" more running away, hiding, aweful sounding noises -- more stress for all basically and unfortunately. But that is really the only path forward.

You will get some people talking about feliway and other stress reducers, and those can't hurt, but I'm a science guy, and there is no science for that stuff. Some report it helps, some report it does nothing, try it if you like. You will get a small number of people that think you can teach a kitten to play more nicely, but most of us don't believe that -- this is the way they play, and they do not generally understand the concepts of respect or boundaries. A reintroduction is another common idea. However, I think introduction processes mostly help with stranger danger, not I don't want to be jumped on issues. I mean, its not going to hurt, and it might be a reasonable thing to try, but realistically I think the odds are relatively small that it will help given what is going on, given that you did introduce them slowly and its already been months. So yeah, time together is the surest path. Its not a great solution, but it does usually work, in the long run.

 

[tkvei]

That makes me so relieved. we let them interact just a few minutes ago there, and the male (younger) sits there and kinda blinks at her and sort of hangs out there, but the older female keeps hissing/growling and kind of escalating in her response, until eventually he makes a sudden mvoement, she swats/bites at him, and he immediatelly goes for her neck/torso and bites it. I have the idea that it might be that he's the one trying to pin her down and show her that "you're being too aggressive/going too far", or he's still trying to mount her as he's only been neutered for a few days. Either way it looks like if they do end up tolerating each other, he will definitely be the dominant cat.

 

[Krienze]

Cats are weird. It's hard to tell what's play and what's not sometimes, at least it is for me x.x I learned when Jasper and Mia are playing, when it's time to separate them, Mia cries/gets louder/hisses. I usually only separate them for about ten minutes at a time when that happens. It happens less and less these days though, so don't get discouraged. Sometimes it takes awhile for cats to really start to tolerate/get along I think!

 

[ArtNJ]

You can take a video for us to be sure, but if this is a 5-7 month old kitten, (guessing since you said adopted a couple months ago) I can pretty much guaranty that its ALL play on the kittens part and he just isn't acknowledging social cues at all. That is the way they often are. Jerks (unfair, but a hard label to not use). I got my kitten from a home with a 3 legged cat. While I was visiting the home, say 30 minutes, I saw that 3-legged cat jumped on like 100 times while it tried to slowly hop away. Ignoring boundaries and social cues is a kitten thing. And what you have, is what you sometimes get as a result, an older cat saying no no get away, and a kitten that just won't stop. This is the main reason its likely to be a slow inching process towards toleration. Sometimes an adult cat is still scared if the kitten is more respectful, but it makes it a lot easier. Unfortunately, the "jerk" is probably the more common kitten variant!

Its not wholly impossible for a young adult cat to become genuinely aggressive because its being constantly hissed at. I had that happen once, and I've read about it another time or two. But it seems to be very very rare is why I'm so confident your kitten is just being a jerk. But take a video if you aren't sure!

 

[susanm9006]

I agree with all the posts. If your adult cat really wants to let him know that he should leave her alone she is capable of giving him a very strong message in the form of a slap or bite. Not enough to actually injure him but definitely letting him know that she could. And it’s better for this to happen before he is fully grown and possibly bigger and stronger than her. So it’s best for their long term relationship to let her handle his playfulness.

 

[pearl99]

From what I've read adult cats are "hardwired" to not maul or badly injure a kitten so it sounds like Girl Cat is choosing to avoid. How old is Boy Kitten?
Likely I would distract Boy Kitten from a chase or lead away or remove him to another part of the apartment/house when Girl Cat is chased and hides in the litter box to give Girl Cat more peace. But the checking out of Girl Cat I'd let go on so Kitten can have some learning of limits.
If I sensed things getting too tense I'd lure Boy Kitten away. But they do need interaction to learn about each other.
Little Boy Kitten just wants to play!
Does Girl Cat like to play? I've read play can build a cat's confidence and it's helped my conflict-averse boy Waffles stand up more.
Also if Boy is just sitting watching and Girl is hissing/growling, I will distract the hissy/growly one with pets (if I'm not in danger of being lashed out at) or sweet-talk to have Hissy/Growly look away to show that she can look away and be okay. (If Boy isn't about to pounce.)
Plus, as above, time. Boy Kitten will calm down at some point.

 

[cataholic07]

Check out this website
Intercat Relationships | Answers, Why, When & How of Cat Behavior Issues by Pam Johnson-Bennett

Also increase how much you play with your kitten ten fold. If he is tired he won't bother her. Ensure you have lots of resources like cat trees, cat shelves, scratching posts etc. Get more interactive toys as well.

 

[cmsandford]

I love her book, Cat Vs Cat....I give cat friends copies. They can be found used on Ebay/Amazon. I have my own cat separation situation due to one cat having PTSD caused by referred aggression related to a neighbor cat or raccoon cat at the window. I've tried EVERYTHING...they love each other but I never know when he's going to "trigger". He's never been an aggressive cat. I put a screen door on my bedroom so they can at least see and touch each other. I switch them out several times a day so they can socialize with my other 3. It's the only time in my many years & many cats that I've had to separate cats permanently. They might eventually be OK, but the tension after a fight affects the other relationships & everyone walks on pins and needles.

 

[di and bob]

Your girl is displaying perfectly normal female reactions. All of the females I have had do NOT want to be bothered, especially by an annoying kitten. There will be much hissing, growling, slaps and eventually when she finally asserts herself, pinning to the floor. That is why I always suggest getting two male kittens to be buddies and have someone to play with, and the female to rule over them all. She may be cranky and trying to flee, but it does keep her entertained and avoids boredom. I would distract the kitten when she goes to the litterbox, that is not fair that she has to go there to defend herself. I gave my Chrissy a hideout on top of the fridge, with a blanket, food, and water. She stayed up there for months. It takes cats MANY months to get accustomed to change in their world. You might try to find her a place she can escape to high up and that she can defend easily from the little invader. In a few months, you will see a change, they will tolerate each other much better. She will relish the role of rule enforcer and he will calm down a bit. They will become a family unit. My little girl now still screams and fur flies once in a while years later, and these are her sons! For now, he has to have something else to get rid of all that kitten energy. Get two kickeroos on Amazon or at a pet store, they are long catnip filled toys that cats LOVE to wrestle. Throw it towards him when he is bothering your girl. He will bunny kick it and get everything out of his system. The reason I say two is because I keep one in a catnip-filled baggie to refresh it and interchange them. Since there has been no blood drawn in their interactions, I would monitor them and leave them together. Tussles, screams, growls and slaps are normal on her end, she is doing what a female does, keeping the boys in line.

 

[tkvei]

Thanks for everyone's replies, makes us a bit more confident in that their interactions are normalish!~

The one last thing we are somewhat concerned is that the kitten will run up to her now, and sometimes it looks like he is trying to pin her down. She will growl and hiss and run away to her litter box to hide (not do her business), but he will just wait there trying to come inside the litter box sometimes with her! We've been putting him away to another room and closing the door when this happens, and she immediatelly comes out and goes back to the living room. Should we keep doing this or let her fend for herself? Read somewhere that the litterbox has to be a complete safe spot for the cat or she will stop using it and would like to avoid this

 

[di and bob]

I would distract him and if that doesn't work, then pick him up and separate them, for now. My Chrissy took almost 9 months before she finally stood her ground, and things went smoother from there on out. It will straighten up in time, your girl just needs to get used to having him around and his ways. She will.

 

[ArtNJ]

Yeah, its probably a good idea to distract the kitten if she is hiding in the litterbox. I mean, you can never go wrong gently distracting the kitten. Its just that they do have to work stuff out, and you could go crazy making it your full time job to watch and intervene, and it wouldn't gain them much in the long run. But yes, if the big cat is seeming particularly miserable, or retreating into the litterbox, that would be a good reason to intervene.

Does the big cat have high spaces? You could try adding some tall scratching posts. Height gives cats confidence they can defend themselves. Which a big cat shouldn't need vs a kitten, but it is what it is.

 

[tkvei]

Yeah, its probably a good idea to distract the kitten if she is hiding in the litterbox. I mean, you can never go wrong gently distracting the kitten. Its just that they do have to work stuff out, and you could go crazy making it your full time job to watch and intervene, and it wouldn't gain them much in the long run. But yes, if the big cat is seeming particularly miserable, or retreating into the litterbox, that would be a good reason to intervene.

Does the big cat have high spaces? You could try adding some tall scratching posts. Height gives cats confidence they can defend themselves. Which a big cat shouldn't need vs a kitten, but it is what it is.

She has plenty of space, but she's always been a big scaredy cat running away to hide at the slightest sudden noise/movement, and she's just not "fierce" enough to even consider fighting him off. For example, we have steps that are on our door so she can go all the way up and sit there, about 2m high up. When coming down she's super careful, going step by step slowly, whereas the young one will just jump off the top step onto the couch and not care. If she's up there and he tries coming up she will just run away instead of standing her ground.

 

[ArtNJ]

Well height may still help. It took my stray maybe three years, but she eventually started play fighting our other cat, but only when she had elevation. Jackson Galaxy, on his show, really preaches elevation and often has people build crazy stuff like "cat superhighways" but I figure for most people, just make sure you have a tall scratching post or something similar.

 

[pearl99]

I would intervene also and take kitten away, either to be in another room or in the house away from other cat who is hiding. I've separated for parts of the day too with situations like this, if one or both of the two cats don't yell and scream to be let out.

I have a boy who hides at the slightest thing also (he is 6 years old) and giving him lots more play and affection and love has helped him be more confident. He is a "low cat" and he actually goes up high more now.

 

[wrs2]

I have gotten three new cats over the past three years and they have all had to get acquainted with my two older cats, who were 14 when the latest kitten came. One is more of the scardy cat like yours seems to be, running away and afraid of everything, especially a new kitten! I have had three totally different experiences with mine. One we had in quarantine for 8 months prior to introducing him to the other cats, the next one just came in and got along with everyone right away like they were old friends. Now the most recent one, she's another story! She was afraid of people, but loved other cats. She wanted to be friends and play, but a 14 year old cat really doesn't want to play. To get them to get along I had a room in my house that none of the other cats were ever in. The kitten got to live in the room for the first two weeks in quarantine, after two weeks we took er out, and let the older cats explore the room and if her scent was there, they could get used to it. By week three they were aloud to be in the room together. If the older cats got scared, hissed, etc. they would leave. By week 4 we moved the kitten up to the main house. She had a large cage that she would sleep in, and the others could see her and get used to her, If she would get too rough with them, she;d go back to the cage for a respite. By week 5/6 they were all good. October will be one year, and other than a bit of play chasing, they get along amazing. No fights, hisses, growling. It was a slow and steady introduction period that really worked well for them. Now the kitten knows for the most parts the two old girls are the boss, she respects them, they even sleep in the same room together at night, and plays with the two younger ones.