How affective is the ELISA test for FIP?

[cat person]

As the title says, how effective is the ELISHA test for FIP? I am very worried about Loki, AGAIN

. I just had to put down my DLH, who, was terminally ill, and for the first time had a VERY HIGH FIP titer. Which had NEVER happened before! So, needles to say, I put her down last night.

I had his blood tested and got those results back. His kidneys, liver, and such are fine. On one part of the FIP titer he was "clean". On the other it was "low". I am completely aware, any cat, that has the upper respiratory/coronavirus will show some FIP titers. However, Loki, my F3 Savannah and Panda, the formally ill DLH shared everything. They licked each other, slept together, and did use the same litter boxes.

Since, as some of you know, I am A) completely paranoid about Loki and B) do love my completely out of control cat, more then ANYTHING. So, me and the vet, decided, before any majors decisions where made about Loki's fate (I am supposed to be getting an F2 Savannah, an F2 Chausie/Jungle cat hybrid and a male Geoffrey cat, all in 2013-2014) that we run the ElISA test on him. I am very worried about him effecting the cats in parentheses.

So, everyone give me your

.  Also, can you spare some vibes for Loki yet again? They saved him, over a year ago, when, he needed emergency surgery.

Thank you all, a very very worried cat owner!
 

 

[orientalslave]

It tests for cornavirus, not FIP.  Cats with FIP have been infected with coronavirus which has mutated, but being infected with it is very common and most cats don't get FIP.  FIP can only be definitively diagnosed by a post morten.

Lots more info here:

http://www.dr-addie.com/

 

[brandy-neka]

I'm sorry to hear that you put Panda down, she's in a better place now... Not that it really helps you much. 



I'd be worried about all of your cats potentially contracting FIP, not just Loki unless you had them in completely different rooms which I know you didn't. From what I've read wet and dry fip is shared through feces, possibly urine as well but I don't know, it's also by saliva. So potentially Loki doesn't have anything, but he possibly could. It also depends on how much of it Panda had, was he showing acute signs of fip? Depending on how much he had it, will show how much would have been in his saliva or his feces.



Cats over two and under geriatric age are less likely to get it. It's most commonly spread from mother to kitten. It can live in the environment though so make sure you wash everything throughly. I still think all your cats should be tested not just Loki...

http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/brochures/fip.html




Can my cat be tested for FIP?


One of the most difficult aspects of FIP is that there is no simple diagnostic test. The ELISA, IFA, and virus-neutralization tests detect the presence of coronavirus antibodies in a cat, but these tests cannot differentiate between the various strains of feline coronavirus. A positive result means only that the cat has had a prior exposure to coronavirus, but not necessarily one that causes FIP.


The number that is reported from these tests is called an antibody titer. Low titers indicate a small amount of coronavirus antibodies, while high titers indicate much greater amounts of antibodies. A healthy cat with a high titer, however, is not necessarily more likely to develop FIP or be a carrier of an FIP-causing coronavirus than a cat with a low titer. A cat with a high titer is also not necessarily protected against developing FIP in the future.


Other tests have been developed that can detect parts of the virus itself. The immunoperoxidase test detects virus-infected cells in the tissue, but a biopsy of affected tissue is necessary for evaluation. Another antigen test uses polymerase chain reaction (PCR) to detect viral genetic material in tissue or body fluid. Although this test shows promise, PCR is presently only capable of detecting coronaviruses in general, not necessarily those that cause FIP.


To date, there is no way to screen healthy cats for the risk of developing FIP, and the only way to definitively diagnose FIP is by biopsy, or examination of tissues at autopsy. Generally, veterinarians may rely on a presumptive diagnosis, which can be made with a relatively high degree of confidence by evaluation of the cat's history, presenting symptoms, examination of fluid if it is present, and the results of supporting laboratory tests including a positive coronavirus antibody titer.



I found the above just from a google search. 



I do know that my vet does not have a very good opinion of the tests and told me not to get one because sometimes it's positive and sometimes it's negative but that those results are not always correct. When Neka was sick and she had pleural effusion in her chest I was first told it was effusive FIP and so the vet explained all about the disease. Then I was told it was lymphoma. Then I was told it could be both. Then they thought it was more likely lymphoma. That was a whole big mess, but you know the story for the most part from talking to you. As you know it ended up being lymphoma carcinoma. 



When I got Sabriel I of course had her tested for fiv,felv, and both of those came out negative. I wanted to get her tested for the FIP to see if she was likely to contract it and that's when my vet told me that it doesn't have the best record of being correct. I do know from the biopsy that Neka did not have it though. 



I take it theres no way to get a tissue biopsy from a live cat? That would be the most accurate way to tell. Biopsy's can be done on people but yeah... 



This is purely my opinion but if Loki does have strains of the feline coronavirus within him, do not put him down... He could just be a carrier that does not mean that he or your other domestic cats have fip but they could just be carriers or it could be a different strand of the coronavirus.



But I also wouldn't bring new kittens or cats into the environment unless you plan on keeping them completely separated, which would be odd because I'm guessing your getting the other kittens as potential playmates for Loki. 



Those are my thoughts... I'm sorry again about Panda hun. What does YOUR vet think about the Elisa test?

 

[cat person]

I'm sorry to hear that you put Panda down, she's in a better place now... Not that it really helps you much. 

Please, do not be sorry. I am NOT. She was TERMINALLY ill anyway. I am just sorry, I exposed Loki to her. Panda, lived for almost three years, she, was short of it, by three weeks. I was told, she, would die by 10 months old. So, she had a very good long life and good too.

I'd be worried about all of your cats potentially contracting FIP, not just Loki unless you had them in completely different rooms which I know you didn't.

All my cats, get blood work, every three months. None, show any titer difference. Plus, the two DSH's go in and out at will. So, they are constantly exposed. Now, since, Loki was about a year old, they have refused to interact with. Also, my two DSH's have always tried to KILL Panda. Hence, they where not exposed to them very much. When, they are inside, it is in my finshed basement now. Lastly, they only go outside to use the bathroom. So, they NEVER shared litter boxes!

From what I've read wet and dry fip is shared through feces, possibly urine as well but I don't know, it's also by saliva.

Yes, that is what, I am told

.

So potentially Loki doesn't have anything, but he possibly could.

The, lack of a definitive answer, is, what is KILLING ME!

It also depends on how much of it Panda had, was he showing acute signs of fip?

Just, a week and a half of very soft stools. Which, have, NEVER lasted that long. Despite, never eating the same thing twice, she, had always had good normal stools. So, the suden soft stools scared me. I kept her away from Loki, since, Saturday night. The stools did not improve, so, I got her blood work done early. The coronavirus titer went from very low to "sky high". That was enough, for me, to decide to put her down!

Depending on how much he had it, will show how much would have been in his saliva or his feces.

True!

Cats over two and under geriatric age are less likely to get it.

Loki, is over two. But, not yet three years old!

It's most commonly spread from mother to kitten.

I was told and have read that!

It can live in the environment though so make sure you wash everything throughly.

I took two days off, to bleach my home. So, I have washed my home very throughly.

I still think all your cats should be tested not just Loki...

My two DSH's that are indoor/outdoor cats, have been. There titers are no different then normal!

Can my cat be tested for FIP?

One of the most difficult aspects of FIP is that there is no simple diagnostic test. The ELISA, IFA, and virus-neutralization tests detect the presence of coronavirus antibodies in a cat, but these tests cannot differentiate between the various strains of feline coronavirus. A positive result means only that the cat has had a prior exposure to coronavirus, but not necessarily one that causes FIP.

The number that is reported from these tests is called an antibody titer. Low titers indicate a small amount of coronavirus antibodies, while high titers indicate much greater amounts of antibodies. A healthy cat with a high titer, however, is not necessarily more likely to develop FIP or be a carrier of an FIP-causing coronavirus than a cat with a low titer. A cat with a high titer is also not necessarily protected against developing FIP in the future.

Other tests have been developed that can detect parts of the virus itself. The immunoperoxidase test detects virus-infected cells in the tissue, but a biopsy of affected tissue is necessary for evaluation. Another antigen test uses polymerase chain reaction (PCR) to detect viral genetic material in tissue or body fluid. Although this test shows promise, PCR is presently only capable of detecting coronaviruses in general, not necessarily those that cause FIP.

To date, there is no way to screen healthy cats for the risk of developing FIP, and the only way to definitively diagnose FIP is by biopsy, or examination of tissues at autopsy. Generally, veterinarians may rely on a presumptive diagnosis, which can be made with a relatively high degree of confidence by evaluation of the cat's history, presenting symptoms, examination of fluid if it is present, and the results of supporting laboratory tests including a positive coronavirus antibody titer.

I found the above just from a google search. 

I think, the above, came from this site:http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/brochures/fip.html

I do know that my vet does not have a very good opinion of the tests and told me not to get one because sometimes it's positive and sometimes it's negative but that those results are not always correct.

See, I was told that, about, the other blood tests. I was told, that, the ELISA test was "so much better".

When Neka was sick and she had pleural effusion in her chest I was first told it was effusive FIP and so the vet explained all about the disease. Then I was told it was lymphoma. Then I was told it could be both. Then they thought it was more likely lymphoma. That was a whole big mess, but you know the story for the most part from talking to you. As you know it ended up being lymphoma carcinoma. 

Yes, I am so so so sorry, about, your story!

When I got Sabriel I of course had her tested for fiv,felv, and both of those came out negative.

Thank GOD!

I wanted to get her tested for the FIP to see if she was likely to contract it and that's when my vet told me that it doesn't have the best record of being correct. I do know from the biopsy that Neka did not have it though. 

As, I stated to OrientalSlave, I could not have a necropsy done on Panda and it be "proof" that Panda did or did not have FIP!

I take it theres no way to get a tissue biopsy from a live cat?

Truthfully, I have no idea. I never thought to ask :-(. However, your great idea, is, going to make me ask on Saturday. You, TRULY, may have saved Loki's life!

That would be the most accurate way to tell. Biopsy's can be done on people but yeah... 

This is purely my opinion but if Loki does have strains of the feline coronavirus within him, do not put him down...

I SO DESPERATELY AGREE!

He could just be a carrier that does not mean that he or your other domestic cats have fip but they could just be carriers or it could be a different strand of the coronavirus.

TRUE TRUE!

But I also wouldn't bring new kittens or cats into the environment unless you plan on keeping them completely separated, which would be odd because I'm guessing your getting the other kittens as potential playmates for Loki. 

Now, this is the part, that, is killing me. The F2 Savannah and F2 Chausie are meant to be his playmates. They have been payed for, since, 2012. However, the gender and color have not "fit". The Geoffrey Cat, is, meant to be my pet. He would be separated. Since, despite, there small size they are very very aggressive!

Those are my thoughts...

Thank you, they are great thoughts!

I'm sorry again about Panda hun.

Again, please, do not be sorry. She had a much longer life, then, expect. I am just so so so SORRY, she, might have killed Loki.

What does YOUR vet think about the Elisa test?

That, I need to do it, before, I put him down. See the results, then, make an informed decision!

It tests for cornavirus, not FIP.  Cats with FIP have been infected with coronavirus which has mutated, but being infected with it is very common and most cats don't get FIP.  FIP can only be definitively diagnosed by a post morten.

Lots more info here:

http://www.dr-addie.com/

That is what I was trying to say. I am sorry. I was/still am crying, at the thought, of, having to put Loki down. I love him so very very much. But, do not want to risk, the other cats, that, I have payed for, that, are yet to be born. So, I am very very torn.

Now, regarding my DLH. She was terminally ill. She was always having blood drawn. So, since, her titer went from low to "sky high" in three months, I decided it was time to put her down IMMEDIATELY! To complicate matters further, my DLH Panda, had a very rare enzymatic disorder. So, a necropsy done on her would NOT have been definitive. Please, do not ask me why, as, I have NO idea. The vet said "just to the ELISA test" and then you can decide. That, is what I am doing!

 

[just mike]

Having been through an FIP scare with Ramsey - There is no test to diagnose FIP except during an autopsy. How does your vet respond to the test?

 

[cat person]

Having been through an FIP scare with Ramsey -

Also, and perhaps, most importantly, can FIP be diagnosed with LIVE cat tissue? If so, where, should the live tissue come from?

Thank you all AGAIN!

 

[missymotus]

The only way to be 100% certain of the diagnosis is to biopsy  one of the abdominal lymph nodes, the kidneys, or the liver.

According to one site, and this is testing after death, not before. 

 

[cat person]

According to one site, and this is testing after death, not before. 

Can you PLEASE post the site? I was told, you have to do a necropsy after death. Or, as the cats abdomen is filling up with fluid, have that fluid tested. In other words, test the cat, as, it is DYING

.

 

[Willowy]

You can't test for FIP. There is no way to know what causes the coronavirus to mutate in some cats. It's not contagious (well, coronavirus is but not FIP). Almost all cats have been exposed to coronavirus, and it rarely mutates into FIP. Really, it's just an unfortunate thing that sometimes happens, no way to do anything about it. Which is all basically what the Cornell info is saying.

And it doesn't even sound like Panda had FIP? Just high coronavirus titers. Which means nothing. Honestl, if your vet is telling you to kill Loki (or is even willing to do it) over this I would be extremely suspicious of his medical knowledge.

 

[ldg]

Oh I'm so sorry about Panda!

But as the others have said, FIP is not something actually infectious in the sense that a kitty with FIP can give it to another kitty. It's the same virus that causes a cold, and we can transmit those to each other, as cats can - but the FIP is a mutation of that virus, and that is not something a cat can give to another cat.

One of our kitties was sick when our regular vet was on vacation when they were younger and we were inexperienced. We took her to see one of the other vets at the practice, and he said she may have FIP. Well, I did know that was a very scary thing. He told us to bring in ALL the other cats. They were all put in quarantine for two days while the were "tested" for FIP. Three of the four (at the time) came back with fairly low titres, but Spooky's was really high. The vet said all we can do was wait and see. Obviously we were completely freaked out and scared.

Our regular vet came back, and basically apologized for having the crap scared out of us for NOTHING. He explained that a high titre count for the corona virus means nothing.

And here we are, 10 years later, and no one ever developed FIP.

So there are no "FIP" titres; only corona virus titres. And that simply means that your kitty(ies) has (have) been exposed to the virus that causes a cold. It doesn't even mean they've had or will have a cold.

I really hope your vet didn't have you put Panda down because of a high corona virus titre count. Did she have any symptoms of illness? Was there a reason they did the titre count?

 

[brandy-neka]

 I agree with LDG.

But I did check with my vet to see if it's possible to get a biopsy from a live cat, and it is, however they just don't normally do it for fip for some weird reason. I mean if you can biopsy a tissue sample post mortem, you should be able to do it with a tissue sample just taken. Unless it has to be from lung tissue or something but I'm sure they could figure something out. End answer is it's possible, it's just not usually done. 

Still agree with what LDG has said.

 

[orientalslave]

That is what I was trying to say. I am sorry. I was/still am crying, at the thought, of, having to put Loki down. I love him so very very much. But, do not want to risk, the other cats, that, I have payed for, that, are yet to be born. So, I am very very torn.

Now, regarding my DLH. She was terminally ill. She was always having blood drawn. So, since, her titer went from low to "sky high" in three months, I decided it was time to put her down IMMEDIATELY! To complicate matters further, my DLH Panda, had a very rare enzymatic disorder. So, a necropsy done on her would NOT have been definitive. Please, do not ask me why, as, I have NO idea. The vet said "just to the ELISA test" and then you can decide. That, is what I am doing!

To be honest I'd put my plans on hold.  Actually I'd seriously consider cancelling them.  Loki is well, she shouldn't be euthanased.

 

[cat person]

And it doesn't even sound like Panda had FIP?

To be honest I'd put my plans on hold.  Actually I'd seriously consider cancelling them.  Loki is well, she shouldn't be euthanased.

Panda was euthanized Thursday night. I am VERY glad I did

. She was terminally ill, with a rare enzymatic disorder, that, affected her bones. Plus, she was ALWAYS SCARED. Hence, she had a very weekend immune system. So, I agree with the vets, meaning, her sudden high titer count and all of the above, made her very very likely to have or be developing FIP!

Now, I have a very very very different view of pets, then, almost anyone on this site. I do not believe they are all equal. I love Loki far more then, almost all of my cats. On top of that, my daughter loves him too. So, since my child loves him and I love him, that means his life is the one that will be considered in MUCH GREATER detail!

Lastly, exotic cat hybrids and pure exotics, have different immune systems and or different reactions. Many of you are going to dispute this, but, medical professionals agree. So, IMHO that is all that matters!

 I agree with LDG.

But I did check with my vet to see if it's possible to get a biopsy from a live cat, and it is, however they just don't normally do it for fip for some weird reason.

My vet, said the same. Now, in the case of Loki, the test could not be done with him awake. NOBODY want to sedate him (me or the vet) either. So, that might have something to do with it, IMHO

.

I mean if you can biopsy a tissue sample post mortem, you should be able to do it with a tissue sample just taken. Unless it has to be from lung tissue or something but I'm sure they could figure something out. End answer is it's possible, it's just not usually done. 

True true RE: the above part

. Again, thank you, for looking into it for me

.

Still agree with what LDG has said.

Oh I'm so sorry about Panda!

Now, the results of the ELISA test are good. His titer was very very low. I am so so so so so so so very very very very very very happy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now, my next question, in three to six months, is it safe, to add an F2 Savannah kitten and an F2 Chausie kitten?

 

[Willowy]

Chumley has FIV; if he had FIP he'd be gone by now, I'm sure. It's not the sort of thing cats can live with for a long time.

I do not have much knowledge of the particular health issues for wild animals, or mixes thereof. Since a lot of them have very specific needs (regarding humidity, food, environment, etc.) there might be a problem. But since almost all cats have been exposed to corona, if it's ever safe to have these wild cats/mixes living with domestics I can't see why it would be any different this time.

 

[ldg]

I'm not asking you to justify your decision about Panda. :heart2:

And deep tissue bite wounds is FIV (feline immunodeficiency virus - like HIV in people) is transmitted via deep bite wounds or mating (think HIV is transmitted via needle sharing or sex). FIP is Feline infectious peritonitis.

But I'm with Willowy. I don't know that most of us know enough about exotics to know what's OK here. I would think it should be fine, but... :dk:

 

[flintmccullough]

Not-getting-in-the-middle-of-the-other-stuff,LOL,its-way-too-confusing,LOL.

Here-is-information,on-FIP.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=1+2134&aid=212

 

[brandy-neka]

Paula hun, I'm not trying to scare you but while I was going through the whole deal with Neka, the vet told me that hybrids are more likely to get things like FIP. Just make sure when you do get the new kittens that Loki isn't showing any signs and that the new kittens aren't either. Maybe get only 1 kitten at a time and see how Loki does with them. Also how the kittens respond to Loki and if there are any health issues. Also don't forget to keep them away from loki while you make sure that they didn't bring anything with them from the breeder... 

 

[cat person]

Chumley has FIV; if he had FIP he'd be gone by now, I'm sure. It's not the sort of thing cats can live with for a long time.

Paula hun, I'm not trying to scare you but while I was going through the whole deal with Neka, the vet told me that hybrids are more likely to get things like FIP.

You are not scaring me Brandy. You are just confirming what I already know, quite sadly. Hence, why, I put Panda down IMMEDIATELY. I very very much appreciate you sharing your information 

.

Just make sure when you do get the new kittens that Loki isn't showing any signs

Most definitely. Furthermore, I will be retesting his titer level, right before, I get the kitten 

.

and that the new kittens aren't either.

Yes, the kitten, will be spending, one month in a separate room, prior to introduction. As well as, a blood work up, prior to the introduction 

.

Maybe get only 1 kitten at a time and see how Loki does with them.

That, will be what is happening. Though, not due to anything but chance. Th F1 Savannah is about a month away from being due. He will be coming from one breeder, The F2 Chausie 75% F1 Queen never breeds till February or March. Plus, as you know, at least 12 weeks, before, you get the kitten 

.

Also how the kittens respond to Loki and if there are any health issues.

I really and I mean really hope, the kittens, like Loki. Since, Loki, loves everyone and everything 

.

Also don't forget to keep them away from loki while you make sure that they didn't bring anything with them from the breeder... 

Most definitely, after this whole fiasco.

I'm not asking you to justify your decision about Panda.

 

[Willowy]

LOL, I'd like to know who you're thinking of! That sounds interesting. No, I don't have wolves or possums, and I would like a skunk someday but I don't have one now. Yes, I do have 24 cats indoors (not quite 25-30). Pictures of the kitties? I have a few on my Photobucket but not all of them. I really should be better about uploading my pics. Maybe I'll make a picture thread.

 

[cat person]

LOL, I'd like to know who you're thinking of!