Homemade raw meat -- adding calcium or bone?

[shadyferret]

Someone gave me some game meat to try a homemade raw meal for my cats. I'm not sure how to add calcium or bone, though. The few articles I find that include steps on how to add bone explain that you have to buy an expensive, industrialized meat grinder or thereabouts to grind bone into bone meal. Is that true? Is that the only option?

I'm not exactly rolling in the dough right now but I don't mind buying a meat grinder,except the expensive models ($125+ with maybe some fudge factor) are kind of out of my price range right now.

 

[ritz]

You could simply get some (raw) chicken wings and give your cat the smallest joint of the wing.  That will satisfy the bone requirement.

Do you currently feed raw, or is this an experiment to see your cats would like raw.  If the amount of raw you feed is less than 15% of what other foods you feed your cats, you don't have to be so concerned about adding bone (or liver, or kidney).  OTOH, you can also buy supplements that include bone/calcium or make up an egg shell concoction that takes the place of bone.

 

[vball91]

The kind of grinder that can handle grinding bones all seem to be $150+ based upon my research. Another method of raw feeding that doesn't require a grinder is called whole prey model (or frankenprey). A good website that has info on this is rawfedcats.org. Basically, it's feeding 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, and 5% other secreting organ. You can also feed 100% meat and use a supplement for the bone/organ portion. There are pros and cons.

As Ritz said, if you are feeding less than 15% raw, you don't need to worry about bone/organ or supplementation because they will get enough from their commercial food.

What kind of game meat were you given? I've read that there can be some issues with feeding certain types of raw game meat to cats.

 

[shadyferret]

I've been feeding my cats raw since August, with the occasional Addiction canned food when I run out. I recently realized that two of them were allergic/intolerant to the turkey and one is allergic to lamb, and I had been rotating Rad Cat Turkey, Nature's Variety Venison, and Nature's Variety Lamb. It turned out that lamb heart is in the venison. I tried duck but it had turkey organs. I've tried beef and discovered the same two were allergic to that as well. So one is eating Addiction Brushtail, another Nature's Variety Raw Instincts Lamb, and Rad Cat Chicken for the third. Two are allergic to chicken, but the 3rd isn't so I can always partially de-bone the chicken and give the others the bones.

I'm thinking about getting a grinder for bones when I have some extra spending cash, but until then I have a problem with one cat. She's allergic to almost every canned meat I've tried for cats except venison and brushtail. I want to add variety to her diet because she's getting sick of these and it seems my best chance is homemade raw.

In that site, rawfedcats.org, I think it's something to keep in mind if I can find other meats to try. It's really strange how two of my cats are seemingly allergic or intolerant to fish, fowl, beef, buffalo, and one's allergic to lamb ?? I've tried rabbit and none of the cats ate either cans (Wysong and Evangers), which is strange. Maybe it's the type of rabbit. I'm planning to try pork and whatever meat I can find at butcher shops.Too bad the recommended meats like brushtail, kangaroo, etc isn't available in USA. Although horse meat was one listed, but I don't know where to find horse meat.

I was given pheasant and venison. My 3rd cat should be able to eat pheasant. The bones are long and I think breaking them into small pieces would cause them to fracture and become dangerous? I read that you should never microwave the meat that contains bones for that reason. The venison meat is sorta like a tendon and has no bone.

Come to think of it, I think I have seen calcuim supplements for humans that said "bone" in ingredients... I have a pill grinder.

 

[ritz]

Where do you live (country)?

Hare Today (USA) has some unusual proteins, like Llama, goat, rabbit (and duck and I believe pheasant) (and mice....).  You might try ordering those proteins from HT.

You can break big bones into smaller bones and feed them, not a problem.  (I fed Ritz bones from rabbit and quail.)

Cooking bones (no matter how short or the power level) is an absolute NO NO.

 

[shadyferret]

Yes, I live in the USA.

Sweet, that's a lot of variable protein! I'm glad they have mice. I always wondered how a cat allergic to almost everything survived for 7+ months outside of a home. I figured mice was the only logical answer. Well, that and a lot of insects.

Thanks for explaining that bones can be broken without risking their health. That was a huge concern of mine.

No, I never microwave or cook my raw meat with the bones. I always put it in a container and stick that contain into another contain filled with warm water for several minutes. My dad did though for a week while he baby-sat my cats despite me explaining why it's bad
 

 

[peaches08]

Just a thought: are you sure it is the meat in the canned food that they are allergic too? I ask because I got these three of mine from the shelter (healthy but eating kibble) yet every can I put in them caused diarrhea. Switching to raw fixed that problem!

FWIW, my Tasin grinder and deep freezer paid themselves off in about 8 months. It costs me about $0.33/cat/day to feed raw.

 

[shadyferret]

Most of the food trials have been canned, but not all. I found out Blue and Poe are allergic to beef and turkey when I fed them each meat raw. Poe refuses to eat raw lamb or Nature's Variety Instincts raw venison (which has lamb organs) unless she's very hungry. I've learned the hard way that if it's meal time and a cat looks stressed about eating something they previously wolfed down, give them something else. Blue also had a reaction to Rad Cat chicken.

But fish, other fowl, and buffalo have all been canned. I don't think I'll ever risk fish again because Blue's food intolerance was severe and Poe's allergic reaction was the most severe reaction the vet had ever seen in her 20ish years of career. Other fowl though... I could try raw pheasant. Canned pheasant caused Poe's face to swell up pretty bad (Blue hadn't joined the family yet), but I've noticed all 3 cats won't touch the several meats I've tried from that brand twice. And the third one, Mojo, is pretty crazy for food! I did just place an order at Hare Today for several meats, including rabbit and rabbit ear treats. They don't like it canned, but maybe raw will be different. And maybe when my confidence builds I'll branch back out to different poultry

Right now my goal is to learn how to properly prepare homemade raw meat meals for cats. I've read up on them when I first started feed my cats raw and apparently it's pretty easy to botch it so I'm going to be very diligent with that. Hence why I ask about the bone or other calcium source. I also found it interesting to read the thread Bone %'s in Whole Ground Prey? and discover that the 10% bone rule is not exactly a golden rule but more of a starting point rule of thumb. Since Mojo is older and has megacolon, I think 10% would be too high for him.

Wow, that sounds like a good deal on the grinder and the freezer. I need to save money a bit through April, though. But that's good to know after that point. Plus I can ask for Amazon gift cards for my b-day which happens right before then

 

[carolina]

None of mine would touch NV lamb, or Venison... Not because of "allergies", but because that stuff smells pretty nasty, frankly. Not eating a food, specially when it comes to raw, imho doesn't mean an allergy or a reaction. In my experience some cats take a long time to deal with red meats, beef for some reason seems to be one of the hardest ones. Out of all my cats, only one can deal with it, so I don't feed it.
What reaction does your cat have to rad cat chicken?
How do you introduce a new raw food/protein to them?

 

[shadyferret]

Well, the beef one was obviously an allergy for one because Blue's eyes turned into fountains and tears were just pouring from his face. It didn't happen at once, it happened a few days into eating beef 3-4 times a day (depends if I go into the office). His face might have been swollen too, he had his eyes clenched shut but it's hard to tell because he's got a weirdly shaped head. They stopped a little after I gave him allergy meds. Poe's eyes were watery, but given that it was relatively a small reaction, it could've been to an additive. It's possible she's actually allergic to a common additive that's used even in the prepared raw pet food industry. It's remarkable how she seems to be allergic to just about everything and that's another reason I want to try homemade. Blue seems to always have gunk in his eye.

Ah, dang it I just looked up the ingredients again. They have salmon oil in the raw meats. Every commercially prepared meat seems to have salmon oil and neither cat handles salmon very well. Poe is deadly allergic to salmon meat and Blue has a moderate to severe food intolerance to it. I forgot that was why I was planning to toss the meat... *facepalm* I forgot when a few weeks passed by and I got low on other raw meats.

I just assumed an allergy for the NV lamb as opposed to the smell because 1) Poe seems to have sooo many allergies, and 2) the last time I ignored those signs my apartment's carpet became very discolored. Twice. Per cat. And those are the instances I didn't get them to the bathroom in time.

Only Blue has had Rad Cat chicken. He ate it fine for a few days and then threw up after two different meals. Looking it up, Rad Cat chicken has a low amount of salmon oil and the thing about allergies or intolerances is that they are triggered after build up. Same with the Rad Cat turkey. Poe never had chicken after a pretty bad reaction, but that was a day after the salmon allergy discovery and could be contributed to her system not fully recovered yet. I could try again with both of them with homemade chicken.

By and large the only raw meats I've introduced is NV lamb, NV venison, Rad Cat Turkey, and Rad Cat Chicken for Blue. But having thought of it, all of these have salmon oil in them. And, thinking about it some more, both cats like Addiction Venison & Apples, which doesn't have salmon oil. Luckily I just ordered a bunch of new raw meats from Hare Today and that's additive free. Maybe salmon oil is the culprit because it's in everything, minus the one time I saw sardine oil. I can't remember if I bought that canned meat though.

Dang you, salmon oil!!!

 

[carolina]

Hum.... Interesting.... Salmon oil is generally not an allergen - Salmon is - as in the flesh, the protein. Not the oil. That's not to say it doesn't happen.... I haven't heard of it though.... could be :dk:

How fast are you introducing your raw meats?
The reason why I am asking - if the problem is vomit - is that for a lot of cats, raw has to be introduced slooooowly.... almost like kibbles. That goes when switching flavors/proteins too...... Anytime I introduced meats too quickly I got vomit too (or diarrhea, or both).... and that didn't mean they were allergic or intolerant - that just meant they were introduced too fast and not able to digest that meat yet.

The solution was always to take a step back and intro that meat slowly. They were fine. For the exceptions of beef, and a couple of my kitties can only handle red meats when mixed with white meats 50/50. But they can eat.

 

[shadyferret]

Well,it's only a guess. I thought about getting allergy tests done for both, but I read they are pretty unreliable. Food trials are the only way to go, or so I've read and my vet indicated, and the most "pure" food allergy/intolerane test would be strictly the meat. For all I know they are both allergic to carrots that seem to be a semi-common vegetable additive. I have no idea how plausible that is, but my point is I need to keep their meals simple for a while. I actually do have salmon oil, so I could test it but I don't see a point with the new meats coming next week, which includes the bones of the same animal. For all I know, that's not the culprit and it could really be the smell of NV's food. In the mean time I bought pork and ordered more taurine supplement.

Admittedly, I suck at introductions because I tend not to introduce early enough for a slow transition. Something on my board to work on, next to remembering to brush Mojo's teeth (heavy tartar). Usually they don't throw up soon after the introduction, but Blue did throw up as early as a few days into the new protein in a few instances. Usually fish, although he went a week with tilape before there was an incident. The Rad Cat Chicken was more like a week. At this point it really is all stipulation until I can get a good solid ground.

I bought the more "exotic" meats because I want to do a food trial the right way this time, which is slow introduction of a meat that the cat has unlikely been exposed to before, i.e. the llama and goat meat I ordered. Afterwards stick to it for about two weeks before transitioning to another. This is how I understand it, at least. I'm just not a fan of a second variable being me guessing how to get them their calcium needs Oh well, can't treat everything like I'm working in a lab.

 

[carolina]

I love your last sentence - isn't that the truth? :lol3:
Hey, no matter what you will love hare today. Awesome stuff :bigthumb:

 

[ritz]

Let me know how your kitties handle llama.  (There is a llama or alpaca farm near where I live.  I think they are used for fur, not meat.)

Ritz loved it, but the kind I got from Hare Today was mixed withbone and  organs, including tripe.  Tripe has a reputation for being really smelly, but I didn't notice it. 

 

[ritz]

PS:  it is good to change only one thing at a time; otherwise, you won't know if that one thing is the cure/culprit.

 

[ldg]

My kitties like llama and goat, but they're both red meat, and red meat makes Shel hurl unless it's limited to only 50% of the meal.

And I would make sure it's salmon oil they're allergic to: proteins are usually the trigger, not fats. :dk: But some kind of fish (like sardines) or fish oil (typically salmon or krill - best if a "named" oil, as those are typically higher quality) is necessary in a raw diet, or it will be deficient in vitamin D.

 

[ritz]

@LDG:  it took me a year of reading threads about raw to finally add fish oil to Ritz' die (frankenprey).

I thought it was because of the Omega 3/6, not vitamin D.  So, does fish oil have Vit D in it?

 

[shadyferret]

Well, despite my anxiety as a rescue mom (so says my sweatshirt), I gave Poe and Blue a teaspoon of wild salmon oil today. Neither showed a reaction and Poe had it twice. Goes to show you that I don't know proteins 

BUT, I did sneak some NV lamb into both of their foods and both of them had a little bit of a teary reaction. Whatever they have problems with the name brand products, its common to all NV raw products and possibly Rad Cat. They have the reaction to some wet foods, but Blue's worst reactions was to Lotus products, which uses ocean fish. Oddly, he went at least a week before having a reaction to tilape... I think. I can't remember now if he did or if because of the reaction to Lotus I completely removed all fish.
 

At least either way I know that llama won't have ocean fish! And whatever NV uses that they don't handle very well shouldn't be a part of the meat. @LDG, thanks for the tip about the red meat. Maybe that's why Blue upchucked the beef, although it was also from NV... In addition to llama and goat, I ordered mice, rabbit (whole carcass), venison, guinea pig ( ), and dehydrated rabbit ears. I figured I should buy venison in case I screw up on the game meat my former manager gave me. It's practice meat! lol

@Ritz, I ordered the same for the llama. I'll let you know how they like it

I'm pretty meticulous on trying to make one change at a time, especially since I started reducing Mojo's medications. I only reduce one at a time, waiting 2-3 months before reducing another one. That paid off when when two months ago I reduced one and he started having problems so I returned to the previous dose. However, in the above context, I meant it's kind of hard to test the different bone percentages and new meats. With Blue and Poe I don't think the bone percentages will be a problem or at least another thing I don't need to test immediately, but I think it's best to start with a low percentage (6%) for Mojo given his digestive problems. I'll probably hold there for a little bit, though. I give him multivitamins so he should be okay for his daily calcium need.

Fish oil has Omega 3/6 in it for sure. Fish oil and flax seed are the two commonly found items for Omegas when it comes to being in pill form. I don't know if it contains Vit D.

 

[ldg]

@LDG:  it took me a year of reading threads about raw to finally add fish oil to Ritz' die (frankenprey).
I thought it was because of the Omega 3/6, not vitamin D.  So, does fish oil have Vit D in it?

Yes. And yes, the primary reason for providing salmon oil or krill oil is typically cited as being the omega 3s, to balance the low level of omega 3s in the meat we feed.

The USDA database is missing information on vitamin D for a number of foods, but in the diet analyses done for me by mschauer, vitamin D always came up rather short - until she input the information for the salmon and krill oil I use in the diet. Cats, unfortunately, don't synthesize vitamin D from sunlight the way people and many animals do, they need it preformed in the diet. The use of salmon oil always seemed "optional" when it was couched in discussion of omega 3. But the sardines I initially used in the diets for the kitties didn't provide enough vitamin D. It took the addition of the salmon oil or krill oil to get there. :nod: