High ph level on raw diet.

[tinn]

I've been feeding my cat, Cam, a raw diet for about 3 years now. She has always struggled with IBD but it wasn't diagnosed until she was 7 (she's 10 now). I made the switch to raw with the help of this message board, and I fully believed it saved her life. I feed her mostly Stella & Chewy's freeze dried raw, and very occasionally canned food (Nature's Variety Instinct). She was put on a diet last year when I brought her for her check up, and I thought she was looking a little thin and so I started upping the treats I give her. At the suggestion of an employee of a wellness pet food store I started adding a small amount of Stella & Chewy's dog food--she really likes rabbit, and unfortunately it doesn't come in that flavor for cats. I also occasionally give her raw chicken hearts, sardines and Vital Essentials treats. 

Last week I brought her to the vet, and she said everything looked normal except that her urine sample was "weird". She said that there was a chance Cam's urine sample was contaminated because she voided during her lab work and they had to check it off the table (so if anything else was on the table that could've altered the reading). She said the ph levels were very high, 8.0, and that that would be the ph level for an herbivore, which we both thought was strange because she lives off a diet that is very high in protein. I believe she said she didn't have struvite crystals but would if the ph continued to stay so high. She hasn't been peeing outside of her litter box at all.

The vet asked that I bring Cam in again (which I'll do as soon as possible) to redo the test and make sure everything was read correctly/not contaminated, but she seemed to be at a loss as to how that could be possible given her diet. Is there anything else that might contribute to the ph level being high? What might suggestions be to lower it? Based on what I said her diet was, do you think she's missing any sort of vital nutrient or anything? I would like to go in there with more of an understanding so I can maybe make suggestions or at least be able to follow along with what her suggestions might be... I'm trying not to get too worked up about it as there could be a very simple reason for things to seem so strange, but I don't want to sit around and wait for things to get worse if that was the correct reading. 

Thanks in advance (from both of us)!

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• tinn
• Feb 1, 2016

 

[lisahe]

Edit: @tinn, after reading Violetxx's post, I'm realizing that I probably misinterpreted your ph! Were you asking about ph or phosphorous? If it was ph, you might want to ignore everything below unless you're concerned about phosphorous anyway! (I think I'm phosphorous focused after having had a kidney cat a few years ago.)

You might want to call Stella & Chewy's to ask for information about the phosphorous levels in the foods you're feeding. I calculated them a year or two ago and they were very, very high, so high (around 5% dry matter) that I wondered if the data they gave me were incorrect. (I double- and triple-checked the figures with the woman on the phone because I was surprised she a) claimed the same numbers applied to all their poultry foods and b) sounded so high. I also compared their base figures to other foods and checked my math. Everything came out to the high number, though I still wonder if she gave me incorrect data.)

That said, S&C is fairly bony food so I suppose it wouldn't be surprising if the phosphorous levels really were that super-high. Our cats aren't wild about S&C as a meal so we only use it in small quantities as a topper, which means I don't worry about the phosphorous: even so, when I crush the food, I often pick out the larger pieces of bone. Some bone is good since cats need the minerals but...

We feed our cats Primal, which has more vegetables than S&C (which doesn't have any) but it's low-carb and has reasonable phosphorous levels. If Cam likes frozen raw food, Rad Cat is a great option that's not high in phosphorous. You can check phosphorous levels on this PDF chart on Catinfo.org. It doesn't list everything and some of the data may be outdated but it's a good start before calling companies. Stella & Chewy's is not on it because they refused to give data: I don't like their lack of transparency. That makes me wonder about the data they gave me, too.

Cam's a beautiful cat! I hope you're able to figure this all out and get her phosphorous levels back to normal. Good luck!

 

[violetxx]

Very interesting question. I have noticed that some of the commercial raw diets have inconsistent or too high calcium to phosphorus ratios. This can be a serious issue over the long-term. For example, we feed Primal and I have found that many of their formulas have too much calcium, this can lead to constipation and likely other issues, possibly your alkaline pH issue! We only feed the formulas with the proper ratio. The ideal ratio is 1:1.3 though there is a bit of wiggle room, it can be between 1:1.1 to 1: 1.4.

@LisaHE  bones in food cause higher calcium not phosphorus. Also, phosphorus is sourced from meat and phosphorus is acidic, whereas is calcium is more alkaline. Thus, if the pH is too high it is alkaline and may be from the calcium level not the phosphorus. I think you have them mixed up!

Is it possible for you to share that data with me? I would love to check the ratios, and it's not posted on there web page. Thanks 

 

[LotsOfFur]

Obviously this is something you will check again...however, if they clean the tables with a bleach solution, your vet's theory of a contaminated specimen is probably the reason.

 

[lisahe]

I don't still have the slip of paper with the data, sorry! (I did the calculations a year or two ago...) I never had the full ratios, just the key numbers I needed to do the phosphorous calculations. 

And oops, @Violetxx, your post and mention of acid/alkaline made me realize that I zoomed in on phosphorous when the issue is probably ph! I had a more fundamental mix-up than acid and base! (I think I'm phosphorous phocused because we had a kidney cat a few years ago...) I will now get back to work and hide. Oops.

 

[violetxx]

Not a problem LisaHE.  It happens to the best of us.

 Even I had to double-check, because I wasn't sure about the pH of phosphorus, only calcum. I figured you might have a CKD cat. Our beloved Lucky was a CKD cat, who passed away 6 years ago 

Aww too bad. I am surprised that info is not on their website. They are a new food and should know better than to hide such important details.  Hopefully, it's just a contamination, otherwise I would definitely call S & C and ask.

 

[tinn]

@LisaHE  I actually appreciate the phosphorus information too! Cam was at a dangerously low level of phosphorus (1.5), then we made the transition to raw food. The highest it ever was was 4.0 and currently it's 3.0, which I guess is on the low end of normal, but I'm always going to be concerned about her phosphorous levels, I don't want either of us to have to go through that again! I appreciate any advice anyway, and thanks for Cam's compliment! She phocused right in on that, and thought it was very kind of you.  

@LotsofFur  Thanks for the feedback on the bleach/cleaning solution. I'm really hoping that that's all it is! My vet didn't even say anything as concise as that, so I'm already feeling better knowing that that would alter it.

@Violetxx  Thanks for the info on pH (maybe my lowercase "h" was causing some confusion! ) and phosphorus and calcium. Cam loves dairy (she hasn't shown any signs of being lactose intolerant) and the vet said I could give her milk to help her phosphorus levels stay up if I was still concerned or they came back low, but the calcium would just raise the pH level though, right? She suggested it before any lab results came back, but I haven't given her any in a while.

Another thing that I thought of this morning is that I recently bought Cam a catnip plant which she's eaten basically down to the roots--she loves it! I'm only bringing it up because the vet said 8.0 was something an "herbivore" would show, and then it occurred to me that she had actually been eating greens. And another thing I left out is that I occasionally give her a slippery elm capsule with her food. Not sure if that would change anything, I'm just sort of racking my brain to think of anything! Hopefully the sample was just contaminated.

Also, I just want to say that I really like my vet, she never suggested I go on a raw diet but once I told her I had she was very supportive and said that she's seen it "work miracles". But anytime anything comes up it seems like she says a lot of "I've never seen this before" or "Cam's always been a weird case". I know that nutrition isn't a huge part of veterinary school, but you all on here seem to know so much that I feel like it's helpful for me to go in there with a basic understanding of these things as she is always very receptive to my ideas and talks through things with me. 

Anyway, thanks for the feedback everyone!

 

[lisahe]

@LisaHE  I actually appreciate the phosphorus information too! Cam was at a dangerously low level of phosphorus (1.5), then we made the transition to raw food. The highest it ever was was 4.0 and currently it's 3.0, which I guess is on the low end of normal, but I'm always going to be concerned about her phosphorous levels, I don't want either of us to have to go through that again! I appreciate any advice anyway, and thanks for Cam's compliment! She phocused right in on that, and thought it was very kind of you.

Oh, good, I'm glad it was helpful. And yes, I think you're right about use of ph as opposed to pH! Even so, I should have figured things out from context; I guess I'm just still a little focused on phosphorus after having had a kidney cat. (And one day I will consistently spell phosphorus correctly...)

That's very interesting that Cam has such low phosphorus levels: if the Stella & Chewy's figures I got are true (and I will stress again that I do have my doubts), she may be their ideal customer!

She's such a sweet-looking cat!

 
Also, I just want to say that I really like my vet, she never suggested I go on a raw diet but once I told her I had she was very supportive and said that she's seen it "work miracles". But anytime anything comes up it seems like she says a lot of "I've never seen this before" or "Cam's always been a weird case". I know that nutrition isn't a huge part of veterinary school, but you all on here seem to know so much that I feel like it's helpful for me to go in there with a basic understanding of these things as she is always very receptive to my ideas and talks through things with me. 

That's great that your vet is so supportive of the raw diet. Our vet's okay with it, too, particularly since most of what we feed is, like S&C, treated for bacteria.

There are times when I think all cats are weird cases! 

Originally Posted by Violetxx  

Not a problem LisaHE.  It happens to the best of us.

 Even I had to double-check, because I wasn't sure about the pH of phosphorus, only calcum. I figured you might have a CKD cat. Our beloved Lucky was a CKD cat, who passed away 6 years ago 

Aww too bad. I am surprised that info is not on their website. They are a new food and should know better than to hide such important details.  Hopefully, it's just a contamination, otherwise I would definitely call S & C and ask.

CKD is difficult, isn't it? I'm sorry you went through that, too. (Our cat's biggest problem, though, was most likely IBD, which led to lymphoma; she was never properly diagnosed since she was elderly and very frail because of multiple illnesses.)

And I agree that it's too bad--sad, really--that Stella & Chewy's isn't more forthcoming with nutrition information. I also remembered that there's an old thread with information about the S&C calcium/phosphorus ratios. It's here. Who knows what's correct now?! (Maybe ten of us should get in touch with them and we can compare data to get a quorum!

 

[violetxx]

 
CKD is difficult, isn't it? I'm sorry you went through that, too. (Our cat's biggest problem, though, was most likely IBD, which led to lymphoma; she was never properly diagnosed since she was elderly and very frail because of multiple illnesses.)

And I agree that it's too bad--sad, really--that Stella & Chewy's isn't more forthcoming with nutrition information. I also remembered that there's an old thread with information about the S&C calcium/phosphorus ratios. It's here. Who knows what's correct now?! (Maybe ten of us should get in touch with them and we can compare data to get a quorum!

Thanks so much for the link. I copied and pasted vball91's post.

@tinn  It might be worth noting that the phosphorus levels are especially too high in the Sea-Licious Salmon and Cod, and I would be weary to feed the Duck Duck Goose which is too high in Calcium. The rest are close to the norm. 

"

DINNERS FOR CATS	Calcium (%)	Phosphorus (%)	Ca
Chick, Chick, Chicken	0.73	0.51	1.431372549
Duck Duck Goose	1.52	0.89	1.707865169
Heavenly Herring & Tuna	0.81	0.61	1.327868852
Yummy Lickin’ Salmon & Chicken	0.73	0.53	1.377358491
Sea-Licious Salmon & Cod	1.45	1.72	0.843023256
Tummy Ticklin’ Turkey	1.07	0.7	1.528571429

"

CKD is rough. Our boy had it for 5 years and left us at the age of 17 

 He was the kindest kitty I ever knew, our little lion.

 

[lisahe]

You're welcome, @Violetxx! I do wonder what their current data are but we feed so little of S&C that it's not really an issue.

Our cat who had CKD (mild/moderate) was also around 17 (we don't know for sure) and we called her a tiger because she was a stripy cat. She was a very generous sort of cat.

It's been more than two years and I love the "new" cats but I still miss Brooksie all the time. Every cat is different and has its own place!

 

[missmimz]

I know this thread is a few months old, but i wanted to chime in and say that I've been using some S&C as a snack for my oldest cat. He eats raw I make too, but he likes S&C in between meals. I started this about 4 months ago, right after his last vet check, where his urinalysis was totally normal. His most recent urinalysis shows his urine PH jumped from 6.5 to 7.5 and showed some crystals. My vet wasn't worried, but the only dietary change he's had is the addition of S&C. I know S&C is high in both phos and ash, so at this point all signs suggest this is from the S&C so I'm immediately removing it from his diet.

 I guess maybe we'll go back to Primal or stick with Instinct raw market. 

 

[lisamarie12]

I know this thread is a few months old, but i wanted to chime in and say that I've been using some S&C as a snack for my oldest cat. He eats raw I make too, but he likes S&C in between meals. I started this about 4 months ago, right after his last vet check, where his urinalysis was totally normal. His most recent urinalysis shows his urine PH jumped from 6.5 to 7.5 and showed some crystals. My vet wasn't worried, but the only dietary change he's had is the addition of S&C. I know S&C is high in both phos and ash, so at this point all signs suggest this is from the S&C so I'm immediately removing it from his diet.

 I guess maybe we'll go back to Primal or stick with Instinct raw market. 

Whole Life came out with a freeze dried raw food, "Life Bites". It might be a bit carby though as it contains both sweet potatoes and peas. The source of calcium, however, is tricalcium phosphate - no ground bone.