Help with the next step? No added supplements...

[juli4nlovescats]

I've been making home-made cat food for a while and I've noticed great changes in my little tigers.  I've been using supplements but I want to steer clear of everything unnatural and use completely natural ingredients.

This is what I'm thinking for a batch...

One whole chicken including bones and gizzards

3lbs of fresh rabbit

one set of rabbit guts including liver stomach heart & everything else

the mixture ground in a meat grinder

one small serving of sardines daily & tuna as a snack once a week

I'm also wondering if I should provide some RoyalCanin Medical Urinary S/O for dental health and urinary crystals because my male cat has that issue... he's had the PU surgery but my vet said he needs it so crystal don't form... are their any natural ingredients that will help with this issue because I read the ingredients and to no surprise I'm not impressed... It only contains chicken by-product & fat as animal protein and most ingredients are chemicals or plant matter such as rice corn corn gluten etc.....  My vet says he NEEDS it but I'm not sure if he's full of it and trying to make money...

Can you please give me your two sense on my diet plan for raw food without supplements and in regards to RoyalCanin urinary s/o?

Thanks for your help,

Julian

 

[Willowy]

You'll probably need more organs (only secreting organs like kidney, liver, spleen, pancreas, etc. count---heart and stomach are counted as meat); most aim for organs to be about 10% of the diet. I'm not sure what a full set of rabbit innards might weigh. And I'm not certain about the bone content---most aim for about 7%. Not knowing how big the chicken is, I don't think I could venture a guess on that one.

What recipe have you been using for their food?

For urinary problems, many people find that a raw/homecooked diet can really help. The moisture content is especially beneficial. However, he may need certain supplements or a different ratio of minerals. So this will probably take a little experimentation, keeping a close eye on him for symptoms or signs that the diet isn't working for him, knowing how you can tweak the diet to make it more appropriate for him. I would probably keep some canned s/o food around just in case you need something quick. Dry food is dehydrating and not at all appropriate for cats with urinary problems, even if it's supposedly formulated to help.

 

[peaches08]

Agreed with Willowy, and supplements like taurine, lite salt with iodine, fish oil, and vitamins are added to balance the food as well as take care of deficiencies caused by oxidation. If you want to avoid adding supplements, frankenprey might be a good route for you.

 

[Willowy]

If you want to avoid adding supplements, frankenprey might be a good route for you.

I think that you can take the same ingredients as frankenprey/prey model and grind it, and it will still be just as complete except you might want to add some taurine or whole/chunked hearts to account for possible taurine loss from grinding. So I think feeding ground without a bunch of supplements is possible, you just have to know what to do. One principle of prey model raw is variety; if you feed a good variety of meats and organs this should render most supplements unnecessary. If a variety isn't possible because of availability, cost, or cat's preference, then more supplementation is needed.

 

[juli4nlovescats]

Ive been using a 1/4 cup of urinary s/o by royalcanin and my home brew aka....

one full chicken and one pound of rabbit with alnaturin supplment powder i order online and dissolve in water and mix in the ground meeat but i w anna go all natural i just wanna make sure i dont starve them of anything neccesary

 

[ritz]

For your next bat check you might consider Turkey breast. It has a hight amount of l methionine which is a natural humidifier, and the ingredient in most urinary prescription foods.
Rabbit is fairly high in bone. Simply watch the consistency of your cat's poop and adjust accordingly. Ritz is prone to it uti (stress induced) so I buy Turkey breast whenever it's on sale. For treats I feed her freeze dried Turkey breast..

 

[ldg]

If you want to go all natural, I suggest not grinding the food. You might want to read up on prey model raw (frankenprey) feeding:

http://catcentric.org/

http://rawfedcats.org/

To go "all natural" the more variety you can provide the better. And if you can afford grass-fed / pastured / naturally raised meat (and associated bones and organs), even better.

If you're grinding, I would consider supplementing at least taurine. It's water soluble, and the meet has been frozen before it gets to us - and any "juice" run-off before packaging for retail sale has removed some of it.

I would feed sardines for vitamin D and healthy omega 3s, and I would feed egg yolk weekly for choline, vitamin D, and healthy omegas. These are included in a prey model raw diet.

I haven't done the math on your recipe. But a whole chicken, if I recall correctly, is about 32% bone. Prey model raw feeding guidelines call for 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, and 5% other secreting organ. (Secreting organs are kidney, pancreas, spleen, thymus, testes, brain, eyes... ) And the prey of cats is lower in bone: rats and mice are about 5% bone. Most find that cats need 6% - 8% bone. This information is all included in links in this thread: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/264154/raw-feeding-resources

 

[juli4nlovescats]

Thank you so much for all your info.. would you recommend dropping the urinary s/o dry food as well and going complete home made/raw with frankenpray model?

 

[ldg]

I would. :nod:

I had three of my males block, two with struvites and one with calcium oxalates - all within a few months of each other. We put them on the Hill's prescription food, which they ate (dry and canned) for six years. We switched to all canned - had no problems. Well - not with their bladders. They've each got some GI issues which I can't prove, but believe, are from the horrible diet they ate all those years. And they all have needed teeth removed.

With a frankenprey diet, the bones prevent plaque and tartar build-up, and the diet itself targets a very high moisture content and the proper urine pH (about 6.5).

 

[cprcheetah]

Definitely drop the so altogether.  My chihuahua had problems with all types of urinary crystals.  I put her on raw 3 years ago, she no longer has crystals.  She was even eating the Urinary SO and was developing crystals.  Raw is definitely the way to go.

 

[sweetthangtx]

I have six indoor cats and feed a colony of about 15 or so outside cats. I have two outside cats with chronic stomatitis. I would love to be able to feed raw to all but don't think I can afford it. If nothing else I would like to feed the 6 indoor cats and the two with mouth problems a natural diet.

I currently feed the inside cats Iams. The colony cats eat Purina complete. The two special outside guys get the kibble and I feed them each fancy feast twice a day. The inside cats get Fancy Feast at least once a day. One of my girls won't touch wet food.

All of the inside cats love the outside guys kibble. We give it to them as a " treat".

What could u expect to spend to feed at least 8 cats raw? What do your colony cats eat?

I'm retiring at the end of this. Onto so I'll have more time. Unfortunately that is coupled with less money.

 

[ldg]

I feed the 8 inside cats raw food: the outside cats get Friskies pate foods twice a day. In freezing weather, I also put out dry food. I give them a mix of Nature's Variety Chicken dry and Tractor Supply's 4Health.

I honestly have no idea how much I spend on the outdoor cats. We don't want to know. (Though we do buy the 13 ounce cans from Walmart at $0.97 per can, and I put out 6 to 8 cans of it a day for the 11 or so cats - so there you go).

I feed modified prey model raw (for me that means I feed boneless meats served in chunks or bite-sized pieces, and I use a bone alternative rather than whole bones, a small amount of organs, and I add some supplements). I bought a chest freezer - used - from craigslist for $35. I buy supermarket chicken breast, thigh, gizzards, liver, pork, and beef. I buy these when they're on sale, portion them up into the 11 ounce meals the 8 eat (this is being modified to include Pawley!), and freeze. I alternate between eggshell powdered and MCHA as the source of calcium rather than fresh whole bone - mine were all older when switched, and most won't chomp bone. Chumley enjoyed it, but doesn't have enough teeth left to do it effectively. Using MCHA is expensive: you can use only eggshell powder. If you eat eggs or feed them to your cats (or both) that brings the cost down a lot vs using MCHA (if your cats won't chomp bone, meaning you can't feed prey model raw).

Of course, the option is to buy a grinder and follow something like Dr. Pierson's recipe (http://www.catinfo.org) OR buy boneless meats (or bone-in meats and debone), use a food processor to mush it up, and use one of mschauer's raw recipes - using eggshell as the source of calcium.

If I take out the more expensive meats I feed once a week (I purchase them from http://www.hare-today.com ), and substitute more chicken, beef and pork... it costs me $0.77 per cat per day to feed raw (without the supplements I use). Oh - I actually only had to subsitute two meals. The stuff from HT - even shipped - just isn't overly expensive. If I add in the cost of the eggs, the salmon oil, the vitamin E and taurine, my cost is $0.93 per day per cat. I do make a homemade supplement I sprinkle on that includes a B-complex and iodine that I haven't built into the spreadsheet, but those add very little to the overall cost, I don' t think it would impact the number.

Note: my cats eat significantly less raw food than canned. My cats eat daily totals of 4.5 ounces for some, 3.6 ounces for most, and 3 ounces for two. This is served as three meals daily (so meals of 1.5 ounces, 1.2 ounces, and 1 ounce). Yes - it looks like very little food in the dishes.

The ferals get raw leftovers. I loved this during our transition, as nothing went to waste.

 

[sweetthangtx]

I took my first small, timid step today on the road to raw. I picked up a package of chicken hearts just to test the waters. They were so inexpensive that it won't matter if no one eats them.

I took a few and chopped them fairly small. I put some in a small plastic Baggie and ran hot water over them until they were room temp.

TJ was sitting on the dining foo table and when I gave him a piece he gobbled it up like it was cat candy. He ate all that I gave him. But he is also a cat that will eat shoe string potatoes. Maybe he was not such a good test subject.

The next test was Bailey, who is still a kitten. Bailey wasn't reluctant at all. He ate all that I put in the dish. It was funny to see him. He looked a little like a kid chewing gum for the first time . Trouper sniffed it and tried a piece but left most of what I gave him. When Baileys brother,Sunny, woke up I gave him some. He ate his sort go like a kid eats spaghetti. He got a corner of it his mouth and chewed and then would pull up a little more and work on that. Puff ate hers with no trouble. Ms Kitty turned her royal nose up at the heart. She is the one that won't eat wet food. She is also the queen of the world in case you are wondering who is in charge.


I warmed some more and went outside to see what the colony cats would do with the raw meat. Inky is a beautiful little chow hound. I was not surprised when he gobbled it down. Romeo ate as much as I would give him. That was no surptprise. He is a real opportunist.

I was surprised at how many of the colony cats had little or no interest in the meat. Roughly about a third of them enjoyed it. The rest of them sniffed it and said " no thanks".


This was just a toe in the water. I'm going to try a few more things before I look for a freezer.

Hold a good thought that I can talk my husband into this and can convince my cats that it is a good idea

 

[ldg]

Wow, overall a great reception right off the bat! :bigthumb:

If you want any transition tips for the Queen of your castle, just let us know.

 

[sweetthangtx]

I really think the husband will be the hardest to transition.

Ms kitty is soooooo stubborn. A few weeks ago she had to have a VERY expensive procedure. ( I have had cars that cost less than this vet visit )She somehow got a foreign object in her windpipe. Only the special vet in the most upscale part of town was equipped to take care of her. So, after three days at the hospital she was sent home with two different pills to be given three times a day for ten days.

Thank goodness she is in good health generally. There were several pills that never made it past her lips. There were others that went past her lips that made a return trip out. There were some that were in and out so many times they were too gooey to shake off my finger when I finally got her mouth open.

I'm going try some chicken liver next. On the cats, I know the hubby won't it ouch it. Wish me well!