Help With Getting Cat With Severe IBD To Eat Raw

[zach12]

Hi Everyone. I have a 17 month old cat who after many months of having pooping issues, was finally diagnosed with IBD in June. His small intestine was severely inflamed as well as parts of his large intestine. The vet put him on prednisone, which I am now trying to wean him off of, but now seems like the diarrhea is returning and am concerned. The vet said that she seriously doubted that Zach would ever be able to get off the prednisone. He is to young to be having to deal with all of this and there has to be a better way to deal with the IBD so that he is healthy and happy. I have visited this forum many times in the past 6 weeks in search of information on the raw diet in hopes of helping him and have finally decided to try it. This is Zach's and his brother Gabe's first day at eating raw. In an attempt to not aggravate the IBD, i am trying to transition them to raw slowly. So, I tried mixing in 1/4 patty of the Venison (Nature's Variety) into their kibble. They won't eat it. So, my question is can anyone suggest how to transition them to the raw only? Should i be doing canned first, then raw? Should I be giving them Primal instead? Any tips/input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Zach's Mom

 

[ldg]

Aw, I'm so sorry! Poor baby! For right now, I'd keep your baby on the pred - seems like he needs it. Pred is practically a miracle drug for kitties, and they do tolerate it physiologically MUCH better than people do, even long term. :nod: Let the pred do its work while you transition - and once your baby is eating raw, then taper down the pred. At least that's what I'd do if I were in the situation.

Carolina transitioned to raw beginning late last year. Her Bugsy had dealt with IBD issues most of his life, but he was on canned food at the time, and that makes it easier to transition.

HOWEVER... that said, she has two other kitties, and one was not eating canned food. She transitioned directly from kibble to raw food. It took her kitty Lucky 35 days, I think it was, to even taste it. But after a month or two, she was eating 100% raw, and now loves it! But it is a process, especially for the kibble addicts that don't recognize raw as food.

I like to use the analogy of a child eating Captain Crunch cereal their entire life. Plunk down a salad, and they're going to look at you like you're crazy. You'll need a lot of bacon bits, cheese, and salad dressing to even get them to taste it. This is like that. They don't know it's food.

What Carolina did for her Lucky was tear of little pieces of the patty and roll it into a pea-sized ball. The treat she was using at the time that Lucky LOVED was Whole Life freeze dried chicken. It powders easily. She would roll that pea-sized ball of raw food in the Whole Life freeze-dried chicken powder. She'd make THREE of these, and set it on the same plate as the kibble. After a while, she switched to not making them into balls, but just putting a tiny "dollop" of raw on the plate, coated in that WL (Whole Life) FD (freeze dried) chicken powder. It took a month - but Lucky eventually licked that powder off, getting a touch of raw in her mouth. Then one day she just ate the raw. And then more and more. :nod:

You might want to read through the beginning of her thread. It's LONG - but ignore all the posts from everyone else :lol3: and just look for the update posts from Carolina: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/239771/...lucky-bugsy-and-hope-to-raw-challenges-galore

Are you feeding the kitties timed meals only at this point? Because that's really the first step that needs to be made. :nod:

You might find this discussion helpful - it's a discussion of the stuff used and process for transitioning to raw. :lol3: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/241623/raw-transition-resources-thread

 

[ldg]

Oh! And if you're feeding kibble, it is important it is a high-protein, low-carb, no-grain kibble. EVO or Wysong's Epigen 90 are really the best options to use during the transition. Carbs slow down the digestion, and their systems will already be going through a transition when feeding raw. Don't need gurgly tummies from grains/carbs in kibble making them uncomfortable. :nod: If you're not feeding a low carb, grain-free kibble, you may want to transition their dry food while you're working on getting them to recognize raw as food.

 

[zach12]

Thanks LDG. Zach's dose of pred was increased again so he is doing better We are working on the timed feeding, but they are fighting me on it. Both will eat maybe 1/4 of their food, then walk away from it, expecting it to be there later and it isn't. I'm wondering if they are doing this becuase they are use to grazing on the dry pretty much all day. I do not want them to end up loosing weight, so have been giiving in and leaving the food out longer. How do i get them to eat enough during each feeding? Will they eventually get the idea that this is the time we eat, so we had better eat all of our food now?

 

[ldg]

Yeah, those transitions to timed feedings can be difficult. Yes, they're used to grazing, it can take a while before they eat enough at the meal times. :nod:

Suggestions: Put the grazing kibble down in a new place. Pick it up after a couple of hours, don't leave it out all the time. Put it down again AFTER the "timed" meal. You don't want them losing weight, but you do want hunger on your side. :nod:

Feed the timed meals at set times each day. Call them for it, and put it down where you want them to eat it, and fuss over them. Give them 15-20 minutes to eat it. If they walk away from the bowl, pick it up, and don't let them come back to eat more from it. But wait half an hour or so to put down the grazing kibbles, and don't call them for that. And if the grazing bowl(s) needs filling, fill it (them) at one of the schedule meal times, just don't put it down until that half hour after the meal.

This way they will have kibble available, but it's not out all the time. It's not where it regularly is, and the sound of filling a bowl is associated with meal times - and the food down for them to graze is there (will be there) - but not all the time, and there's no "ceremony" associated with feeding/eating it, but there is a big fuss made at "meal" times.

...and as they eat more at meals, leave the kibble out for less time. :cross:

 

[carolina]

Is there an update on this kitty and this transition? Are you still pursuing a raw diet? How are things going with the schedule feeding?

 

[zach12]

Hi Carolina, I've got both boys down to 2 meals a day, eating EVO dry along with a proabotic. They get fed in the morning before work and when I come home at night. Sometime it takes them more than a half hour to eat, other times the food is gone within a few minutes. I think because of the prednisone Zach is on he is eating not only his but as soon as Gabe walks away he eats what is left of his brothers food. Still trying to wean Zach off the prednisone. Each time within a week or so, the diarrhea comes back and then I have to put him back on the .0.1 ML twice a day. Very frustrating. Keeping my fingers cross this time around. I'm wondering now when the best time to try to introduce the raw. Should i work on just one of the meals? I am not sure how to proceed. I want Zach to have a normal life with solid poop and no throwing up long term.

 

[carolina]

Hi Carolina, I've got both boys down to 2 meals a day, eating EVO dry along with a proabotic. They get fed in the morning before work and when I come home at night. Sometime it takes them more than a half hour to eat, other times the food is gone within a few minutes. I think because of the prednisone Zach is on he is eating not only his but as soon as Gabe walks away he eats what is left of his brothers food. Still trying to wean Zach off the prednisone. Each time within a week or so, the diarrhea comes back and then I have to put him back on the .0.1 ML twice a day. Very frustrating. Keeping my fingers cross this time around. I'm wondering now when the best time to try to introduce the raw. Should i work on just one of the meals? I am not sure how to proceed. I want Zach to have a normal life with solid poop and no throwing up long term.

GREAT Job!!!!
Ok a few things - hope you don't mind - How slowly did you transition them to EVO? I hope very slowly..... That transition alone can cause diarrhea..... And that diarrhea can linger - in a normal cat. Let alone in an IBD cat :nod:
Probiotics - make sure it is 10 Billion CFU - the ones for pets don't even come close. I give this one: Natural Factors Acidophilus & Bifidus Double Strength with Goat Milk
On the meals: I would separate them, making sure each cat eats their own food (put them in their own room (probably safer to lock the cat who is on pred, since he is hungrier, and stay with the other cat). If that is not possible, sit in between them so they don't cross over.
Also, make sure you measure how much they are eating - you don't want them eating too little :nod:

I would suggest you to feed 3 meals, and here is why: Once you are feeding raw, their tummies start producing extra acid to digest the meat. If they go too long without eating, they throw up after meal due to acid build up.
This can be easily done with you work schedule - here is what we do in my house - me and my pet sitters, when I am not home:
Breakfast before work
Dinner right after work
Late night dinner right before going to bed - I feed this meal late - usually around 11:30.... if I am up later, later................. My sitters feed it earlier, as they don't sleep as late.

All the meals are divided in equal amounts. So, for what I can see right now, all you'd need to do, is to add a late night meal :nod:

As to when start raw? What about NOW? :lol3:

Have you tried giving them any? Do you have anything in your freezer? For IBD, I highly, highly recommend Rad Cat, unless you want to go home made. There are other good brands too.... I am a real big fan of Rad Cat for IBD..... It is GREAT STUFF!! :nod:
Where are you located? Here is their website to know if they have a retailer near you: http://www.radfood.com/where_to_buy

Do they eat any canned? Do they like canned? If they eat canned, I would suggest changing them to canned first - that will make a very easy transition, as you can mix the raw into it, reducing the canned and slowly increasing the raw untill all you have is raw :nod:

You can transition them quite quickly that way.

Some cats just eat raw though........... Starting slowly with an IBD cat is always better :nod:

 

[zach12]

It took 7-14 days for the transition to the EVO. Going slowly so that his tummy wouldn't get upset.

I've been giving him Cuturelle for his proabotic. They boys don't like to be separated when eating. With all the issues over the past 18 months, giving them separate foods/meals, they refuse to eat. If i put one in the bathroom to eat, they will go to the door, sit and wait to be let out, barely eating. Once you place both bowls down at the same time, then they eat.  Zach has had a habit since they were about  4 months old of asserting his dominance and will deliberately go from his bowl over to his brothers push him out. Gabe will then go over to Zach's bowl start to eat and then Zach goes back to the original bowl and pushes his brother out of the way. If I stay between them will it make things worse for Gabe with Zach's behavior? Can I force the issue?

They each get 3/8 of a cup of food a day.

Can they go 10-12 hrs between breakfast and dinner? I know it would probably be ideal to do every 8 hrs, but that won't be possible during the day.

I've tried giving them Nature's Variety awhile back. Gabe will eat anything and wasn't a problem. Zach the IBD kitty is another story. He refused to eat the raw. One day not that long ago I was making dinner and he came into the kitchen and was watching like he normally does. So, i decided to give him a tiny piece of ground beef. He ate it no problem, then sat there looking like where is the rest. i didn't want to give him more afraid of upsetting his tummy. So, it seems like he may eat the raw, just not the commercial raw.

I live in NJ. None of the pet store around me carry Rad Cat. I would have to order online which wouldn't be a problem. I've checked out Hare Today, not sure which is the best way to go, order from there to start off with or try to make my own. My main concern is them getting the taurine and supplements they need. Is it better to do commercial raw to start, then transition to make my own? How can I be sure they are getting everything they need?

Canned, Gabe will eat without a problem. Zach, would rather have the kibble. He will eat it, just a little of it walk away. If they go to canned first, how long should i wait after to start adding the raw? If Zach continues to having the diarrhea every time I try to wean him off the prednisone, how can I be sure it isn't the transition of the diet causing it? Is it possible to transition when he is having the diarrhea? Sorry for all the questions, I want make sure I do what is best for Zach without making things worse.

 

[feralvr]

HI! I would also recommend using the probiotic Carolina listed above. That is the one I give my cat's daily as well. That will help trememdously with the transition and the diarrhea :nod: With Hare Today https://www.hare-today.com/ you also order the Alnutrin https://www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=290 which you can order from Hare Today OR on-line (amazon) It is easy to add and will make their ground meats a complete meal. I would NOT feed ground raw beef from the grocery store!!! I would order from Hare Today ground to get started. It is extremely reasonable and excellent, high quality meat. My cats all loved the chicken, turkey, rabbit, pork and goat.

ALSO - Rad Cat!!!!! OMG this stuff is like Gold. It is what really got four of my six cats finally eating raw meat. Here is where you order it from. http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/ It is located in Boulder, CO. Rad Cat is mostly sold out West and I am hoping that they can get distribution out to the Midwest and out to the East, someday. IN the meantime, I order from Only Natural Pet Store and usually talk with Jessie. She is very knowledgeable and can get you set up with your "Simplify Life" automatic ordering. By doing that you will save $1.00 per tub of meat. There is a raw food shipping surcharge of $9.95 but you can order as much as you would like and not be charged more than that as a surcharge. There are shipping costs. Rad Cat is not the cheapest way to feed raw, but I tell you, it really gets the fussie cats on raw. Many here have had luck with Rad Cat. Really great meat. Chicken, Turkey and Lamb. The lamb is the favorite.

As soon as you can get them eating some canned food, you can immediately start adding in the raw meat. You don't even have to start with the canned either - go directly to offering the ground raw!!!! Don't mix it with the dry EVO. Offer, let's say a tablespoon of the meat to start and see how that goes. Hopefully they will love it :cross: IF your cats love the Rad Cat - you can change them over quickly from the present diet in a matter of a few days without tummy upset. Make sure you start using the Probiotic right away. I hope this helps some. Good luck

OH - 12 hours is kinda pushing it between meals, but if you work, then that is what you need to do. There is also Stella and Chewey's Freeze Dried products! Those are great because IF you will be gone that many hours and the cats like the product, you can leave some out in a bowl for them to nibble on. Most of us usually rehydrate the product with some water first then feed. But, you can leave it out dry. Make sure fresh water if available also.

 

[carolina]

It took 7-14 days for the transition to the EVO. Going slowly so that his tummy wouldn't get upset. Awesome!

I've been giving him Cuturelle for his proabotic. I haven't seen Culturelle been given for cats, I suppose it would be alright.... One thing is for sure.... TOO $$$! For that $ I am buying 180capsules, while you are buying 30 :dash: They boys don't like to be separated when eating. With all the issues over the past 18 months, giving them separate foods/meals, they refuse to eat. If i put one in the bathroom to eat, they will go to the door, sit and wait to be let out, barely eating. Once you place both bowls down at the same time, then they eat.  Zach has had a habit since they were about  4 months old of asserting his dominance and will deliberately go from his bowl over to his brothers push him out. Gabe will then go over to Zach's bowl start to eat and then Zach goes back to the original bowl and pushes his brother out of the way. If I stay between them will it make things worse for Gabe with Zach's behavior? Can I force the issue? I don't think so.... You can try. One of the most important things in feeding raw is establishing a routine - down to their feeding places, times, etc. My routine includes their places and plate mat - trust me, it saves you a lot of headaches! One of my cats (the one who is VERY food driven is locked in the bathroom, and I sit in between the other two so they don't cross over. They still see each other, are still close, but concentrate on their food. If they try to cross, I pick them up and put them back in front of their plate. It is usually Hope. Feeding her a little piece of meat to get her started and grab her attention on her meal solves the problem right up :nod:

They each get 3/8 of a cup of food a day. ok, this is good!

Can they go 10-12 hrs between breakfast and dinner? I know it would probably be ideal to do every 8 hrs, but that won't be possible during the day. Can you add a late night meal into your schedule, like I explained before so they don't go too long in between meals for the reasons explained before? What are your work hours? What time do you leave? What time do you come home, how late do you stay up?

I've tried giving them Nature's Variety awhile back. Gabe will eat anything and wasn't a problem. Zach the IBD kitty is another story. He refused to eat the raw. One day not that long ago I was making dinner and he came into the kitchen and was watching like he normally does. So, i decided to give him a tiny piece of ground beef. He ate it no problem, then sat there looking like where is the rest. i didn't want to give him more afraid of upsetting his tummy. So, it seems like he may eat the raw, just not the commercial raw. Good.... But as Lauren explained, ground beef from the market is not a good idea due to bacterial issues.

I live in NJ. None of the pet store around me carry Rad Cat. I would have to order online which wouldn't be a problem. I've checked out Hare Today, not sure which is the best way to go, order from there to start off with or try to make my own. My main concern is them getting the taurine and supplements they need. Is it better to do commercial raw to start, then transition to make my own? How can I be sure they are getting everything they need? Several of us started with commercial first until we got comfortable, then moved to home made. I feed a home-made diet, chunks of meat, no bone - "boneless frankerprey". Many don't add Taurine to the diet, but I do - you can buy from Amazon. You can also buy Calcium supplement, or feed the traditional Frankerprey..... Because my boy has IBD as well, I had seen some reports of bones pushing the pancreas, so I decided to stay away from it. Also, I have a girl who can't digest bones at all - not really sure why - absolutely rare issue, I had never heard of...... But..... Had to happen in my house I guess!
Hare-Today is excellent! I LOVE their meats - both their ground meats and their chunks. Very affordable as well. They sell a supplement for their ground - VERY easy - all you do is defrost it, add the supplement with a bit of water, put the portions into freezer safe ziplock bags, and you are ready to go. I LOVE their rabbit meat!
When you buy from them, just make sure to buy the "Fine ground" meat/organ/bone - their shipping is very affordable too. IMHO, the best choices are Rad Cat #1, Hare Today #2. At least from the ones I have tried.... If you want to go home made, please feel free to ask any questions- we will be here to help - we have done all the work.... it is not that hard!

Canned, Gabe will eat without a problem. Zach, would rather have the kibble. He will eat it, just a little of it walk away. If they go to canned first, how long should i wait after to start adding the raw? If Zach continues to having the diarrhea every time I try to wean him off the prednisone, how can I be sure it isn't the transition of the diet causing it? Is it possible to transition when he is having the diarrhea? Sorry for all the questions, I want make sure I do what is best for Zach without making things worse.
You can transition to the raw right away.... I can tell you, my cat always had soft stools, all his life. For the last 14 months before raw, he had BAD daily diarrhea, no matter what his vet tried - trust me, we tried it all. His diarrhea was 100% GONE on the first day he ate 100% raw. Gone. So, the answer is yes - you totally can start while he has diarrhea..... Because chances are, he will have diarrhea for a while.
Now, the key for an IBD cat, is to transition slowly. I started with 1tsp of raw on his first day, mixed onhis canned food. When I saw that it didn't make his diarrhea worst, I increased that to 2 tsp, and decreased the canned. I continued that - following his lead, until all he was eating was raw, and no canned. The same meat. You have to introduce one meat at a time with these guys, always slowly.
It took 8 days for him to be on 100% raw. On that day, his diarrhea was gone. He is completely off meds - even for his stomatitis!
Good luck hun!!

 

[carolina]

Hi Zach's mom! How is it going? Have you decided what your next step is going to be?
Let us know if you have any questions!

 

[carolina]

Hi Zach's Mom, just checking on you..... How is it going over there?

 

[zach12]

Hi, this is the first chance I've had  to respond. Sorry it took so long. 

I ordered the Natural Factors and have been using it for a couple days now. Using 1 capsule for each cat per day. Thanks for telling me about it.

I can feed them at 4:30 am before work then I do not get home until around 4:30 pm. I can feed them at 4:30/5:00am then again around 7/8pm, but unfortunately there isn't anyone who would be able to feed them in the early afternoon during the week. Is it ok to use freeze dried food long term during the week? Is it safe to add water in the morning, then leave it out all day or better off just leaving it without the water?

I am a little confused with the Hare Today. She sells the Alturin that has eggshells/taurine in it with directions to add to meat that has ground organs and bones. Isn't that a bit much or is it needed? I'm wondering if i would be better off getting just the ground meat, then adding the Altruin powder?

I'm hesitant on switching them to wet, then to raw, because of the issues we have been having. If we go the canned route, then how long would they realistically need to be on it before the raw was introduced? At this point I'm not sure which would be the best way to go.

 

[ldg]

Actually, there is an Alnutrin product with calcium, but at Hare-Today, they only sell the Alnutrin without calcium, meant to be used to supplement the ground whole animal products (that have ground bones). So using the Alnutrin for meat/bones/organs does not add any additional calcium.

Yes, you can leave some freeze dried food out for them while you're gone during the day. I would not add water to it, but when you're calculating how much to feed them, just remember that you have to include the freeze dried food, but the weight you include would have to be as IF it were rehydrated, otherwise you'll end up overfeeding them. :nod:

And if you're not comfortable switching to wet food first, then don't bother. Carolina switched directly from kibble to raw with Lucky. It took quite some time before Lucky tried it - but in your situation, very small slow steps is probably best anyway. You can simply begin to offer a few bites of raw at one of the meals, and just veeeerrrry gradually increase the amount of raw and reduce the amount of kibble.... depending on how they like the raw (or not).

As to whether the diet will work without pred.... if I were in your situation, I'd work on the transition. Whenever that time is that Zach's eating raw only, I'd slowly wean him off the pred and see how it went. :heart2: