Help Figuring Out Acceptable Phosphorus Levels

[punkrockkitty]

So, I have a one year old male cat that had an outbreak of Clostridium Perfingens during the summer and has been successfully treated using a treatment dosage of S. Boulardii, and then an ongoing maintenance dosage of it to steer clear of the bacteria. All this without resorting to antibiotics, so I’m a very happy cat parent

The only downside to this was that he also had an outbreak of the “rolling back” syndrome at the same time, aka, hyperesthesia, which meant that our vet highly recommended we use Hill’s D/D duck canned food to help treat his skin and stomach sensitivity issues at once (he only eats wet food). He’s been eating this since July and suddenly about 3 weeks ago, he stopped showing interest in it (I don’t blame him, I hate almost all of the ingredients myself…). He turns his nose to it, walks away, but eventually comes back to it within 10 minutes and forces himself to gob it up. Poor kid.

So, the time has come to finally switch brands. I’ve been very keen on Rawz Turkey paté, but am concerned about what seems like high phosphorus levels. Their website has no information, which I find suspicious…

The only info I’ve found concerning their phosphorus levels is on the Feline Diabetes forum where someone mentioned these numbers back in December 2017 (I think they wrote to Rawz and this is what they got back):

RAWZ 96% Chicken & Chicken Liver Pâté
Dry Matter Phosphorus: 1.41%

RAWZ 96% Turkey & Turkey Liver Pâté
Dry Matter Phosphorus: 1.48%


And then another thread here on TCS, dating back to September 2017:


RAWZ 96% Chicken & Chicken Liver Pâté
Dry Matter Phosphorus: 1.19%

RAWZ 96% Turkey & Turkey Liver Pâté
Dry Matter Phosphorus: 1.66%


So, I’m confused. I read that the levels should try to remain below 0.5%, but I also read that that matters mostly if we’re dealing with an older cat that has kidney issues. That a young cat should be able to take such high levels.

Thoughts anyone?

I'd really like to try this food out as the ingredients meet most of the requirements I'm looking for (no gums, no grains, no carbs, not too much vegetable protein)

INGREDIENTS: Turkey, Turkey Liver, Turkey Broth, Potassium Chloride, Fenugreek Seeds, Natural Flavor, Choline Chloride, Salt, Vegetable Broth, Dandelion Greens, Taurine, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Copper Proteinate, Sodium Selenite, Thiamine Mononitrate, Manganese Proteinate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Ethylenediamine Dihydroiodide, Folic Acid.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Hi. Sorry no one else on this site has come along to help you out yet. I probably can't either, but I do know that Royal Canin (Feline Selected Protein Adult PD or Feline Selected Protein Adult PR - both canned) appear to be comparable to Hill's. I just can't tell by the ingredients about the phosphorus level. And, I know you aren't impressed with the Hill's ingredients, so you probably won't be any more impressed with the Royal Canin.

However, until you find something more to your liking, you could try switching off and on between the above two, and see if the occasional change makes any difference?

Have you tried calling the vet to see if they can recommend another brand that they know is similar to the Hill's?

 

[kittyluv387]

So from my consult, she said it's good if you stay at 300mg per 100kcal. Which is around 1.6% phosphorus DMB. Of course, lower the better for older cats, even if they haven't been diagnosed because declining kidney function is normal as they age.

 

[Furballsmom]

Hi!
Can you rotate a couple of foods so that your kitty isn't getting too much of any one ingredient, ….something like that?

 

[punkrockkitty]

So from my consult, she said it's good if you stay at 300mg per 100kcal. Which is around 1.6% phosphorus DMB. Of course, lower the better for older cats, even if they haven't been diagnosed because declining kidney function is normal as they age.

Yeah, that's what I thought. So if those numbers are right, 1.6% would be the highest I could go (while he's still young) and even then, I think I would stress a bit that I'm flirting with potential disaster. I just wrote to Rawz and asked if they can send me their actual numbers. Fingers crossed they're lower than what I found, because this food would really be ideal for him.

I read somewhere that phosphorus levels are usually higher when the diet is actual meat protein vs all the carby and vegetable protein diets. Which would suck, because I'd really prefer to keep potatoes/carrots/peas (and fish) out of his food. Never easy with cats, is it?

 

[punkrockkitty]

Hi!
Can you rotate a couple of foods so that your kitty isn't getting too much of any one ingredient, ….something like that?

That's the ultimate problem, I can never find more than two canned foods that meets all the requirements. I wish! I'm really trying to keep if fish-free, potato-pea-free and fruit-free AND have a high enough kcal

 

[Furballsmom]

I've read some people use phophorus binders? I don't know anything about that or how it works but thought I'd mention that just in case...

 

[kittyluv387]

Any reason it needs to be fruit free? Not that fruit is desireable but you would get more options with lower phosphorus if you loosened your restrictions. If your cat doesn't currently have ckd you wouldn't necessarily be flirting with disaster by staying in the 1.6% range.There isn't any research that shows less phosphorus will prevent failing kidneys. And unless your cat has ailing kidneys at the moment I don't recommend phosphorus binders. They are made of aluminum which could be more harmful to a cat without kidney disease.

Here's somee lower phosphorus canned foods. On a dry matter basis. Don't know if they will meet your requirements. Mussel isn't a fish and it isn't known to set off fish allergies.

Dr. Elsey's Chicken - 1.25%
Nature's logic turkey - 1%
Evangers Premium Quail - .83%
Lotus Rabbit Canned - .96%

A list:
Tanya's Comprehensive Guide to Feline Chronic Kidney Disease- Canned Food Data USA

 

[punkrockkitty]

Dr. Elsey's Chicken - 1.25%
Nature's logic turkey - 1%
Evangers Premium Quail - .83%
Lotus Rabbit Canned - .96%

Yeah, none of these are sold where I live unfortunately! I'd have to special-order...

So, fruit, yeah. I'm trying to stay away from them, but I have to admit, I am less concerned about fruit than I am about fish and starchy carbs. I can tolerate leafy greens, but I don't know, bananas, apples, blueberries (like in Petcurean's GO!), feels a bit too much. I see cranberries a lot, but would you say apples are an ok fruit for them to digest? That definitely would give me more options, it's true.

 

[kittyluv387]

Yeah, none of these are sold where I live unfortunately! I'd have to special-order...

So, fruit, yeah. I'm trying to stay away from them, but I have to admit, I am less concerned about fruit than I am about fish and starchy carbs. I can tolerate leafy greens, but I don't know, bananas, apples, blueberries (like in Petcurean's GO!), feels a bit too much. I see cranberries a lot, but would you say apples are an ok fruit for them to digest? That definitely would give me more options, it's true.

Yeah I really recommend putting up with the dumb veggies and fruits if you can. I don't think Dr. Elsey's has any of that. Are you in the US? If so you can order it all from chewy.com. They have the best prices and customer service. The stores never have all of the good stuff anyways.

 

[lisahe]

I'm a little confused: P punkrockkitty has the vet specifically recommended keeping your cat's phosphorous consumption low? Have your cat's illnesses compromised his kidney function? If not, as kittyluv387 notes, it's most likely perfectly fine to feed foods with levels like the Rawz food, particularly if you feed foods with varying levels, as Furballsmom suggested.

I've asked our cats' vet about this same thing -- she's a cat specialist -- and she said that, with young cats, there's no need to worry. FWIW, a vet that The Cat Site hosted for guest posts and Q&A about kidney disease said the same thing when I asked the question. We feed our cats foods with varying levels of phosphorous. I'm most concerned about feeding only wet foods with very low carbs. (This is what our vet advocates, too! And both those things -- wet food and animal rather than plant protein -- are thought to be good for kidney function.)

The .5% dry matter figure is extremely low, that's basically just for prescription food, so you're not going to find that in commercial foods. Every cat is different but even when we had a very senior kidney cat, my goal was 1.0% dry matter.

 

[punkrockkitty]

I'm a little confused: P punkrockkitty has the vet specifically recommended keeping your cat's phosphorous consumption low? Have your cat's illnesses compromised his kidney function? If not, as kittyluv387 notes, it's most likely perfectly fine to feed foods with levels like the Rawz food, particularly if you feed foods with varying levels, as Furballsmom suggested.

No, my vet didn't recommend anything, it's just my preference in order to avoid future issues since all he would eat would be this. I don't do food rotation (he has a sensitive stomach because of the C. Perf and to some degree because of his skin allergies), so hence why I focused on whether this one particular food would be OK for the long run. Eventually, perhaps, when he gets older, he might just get tired of this diet, so I might go back to the drawing board anyway

I'm most concerned about feeding only wet foods with very low carbs. (This is what our vet advocates, too! And both those things -- wet food and animal rather than plant protein -- are thought to be good for kidney function.)

Yeah, I'm concerned about that too. That's why I was initially drawn to Rawz, because it seems to be mostly animal protein. I can't find its breakdown % of carbs vs fat vs protein though (not that I understand all of that very well)..

 

[kittyluv387]

You have to be careful though. Its tough when your cat refuses that one flavor. The nice thing about a rotation is that my cats never get tired of their food. My 2 cats that eat wet get 8 different types per week and they never get sick of anything. My 1 cat who has to eat raw does get sick of things at times because he only gets 3 different types since there aren't as many choices.

 

[lisahe]

No, my vet didn't recommend anything, it's just my preference in order to avoid future issues since all he would eat would be this. I don't do food rotation (he has a sensitive stomach because of the C. Perf and to some degree because of his skin allergies), so hence why I focused on whether this one particular food would be OK for the long run. Eventually, perhaps, when he gets older, he might just get tired of this diet, so I might go back to the drawing board anyway

Okay, got it. Based on what our vet and the vet who did the Q&A on the site have said about phosphorous, I would very strongly suggest not cutting your cat's phosphorous drastically -- by which I mean to prescription-level amounts like .5% dry matter -- without a serious talk with your vet. Based on AAFCO data (PDF online here), it looks like .5% is the bare minimum of phosphorus for "adult maintenance" and .8% is the minimum for growing and reproducing cats. Your cat is young so likely still within the growing category. (Our cats took a couple years to fully grow!)

Cats' body chemistry is complicated -- there are lots of factors, including proportions of calcium and phosphorus, and it's best not to mess with those, particularly in a young cat whose body is still developing. I'm not a vet and I don't think anyone else on this thread is!