Hello, Just wanting some information on breeding? Please read and get back to me :)

[livy90]

Hello laddies and gents.. 
I was just wondering, because im interested in becoming a breeder.. 
I have already one male cat who is desexed and i am wanting to get another two cats, to breed.. Will it affect my spayed cat? Will the two other (none desexed) cats get along with my spayed cat? 

Replies/opinions are appreciated thank you  

 

[orientalslave]

Why do you want to be a breeder?  Do you go to shows?  What breed & colours are you interested in?  Do you have a large fortune to turn into a small or non-existent one?

My path to starting to breed has taken over 10 years.  I've moved twice in part as the house I was in back in 2000 wasn't suitable, I've owned and shown a neuter, I've helped my friend when her cat gave birth, I've fostered (that was a rough ride), and I've worked out both what breed and what colours I am interested in, so I can get the right foundation queen.  I've been to a number of shows over the past 3-4 years, and I realise I might have to travel 200 miles to find a suitable stud for my girl.  My friend had a cat that needed an emergency section, kittens needed hand-rearing and all but one died.  Another friend has several entire girls and they spray when they are calling.

I've told you this simply to illustratate that cat breeding isn't something to do on a whim, which is how your post comes over.

 

[sohni]

You haven't given us a lot of information. What kind of cat/s do you have? Do you show cats? Have your cats been shown? What organization?

I would never start breeding without a good relationship with a mentor in your chosen breed. Usually, a breeder won't sell you a breeding cat unless you have proven that you are responsible. If a breeder does sell you an unaltered cat willy nilly, I'd be worried about the quality of said cat. Not the mention the health of the poor thing.

I have been showing/breeding for about 5 years total, and it has been a very slow process. My first few attempts did not produce any outstanding kittens and I am finally seeing the fruits of my labour so to speak, now. As the previous poster mentioned, it is EXPENSIVE. I can't stress that enough. If you show your cats to prove their quality, and health test, and maintain a spotless and custom built area just for cats, you are running into some major expenses.

Now to say that it isn't worth it. I love it, and I love my cats, and I love representing my chosen breed, Egyptian Maus. I feel that they are the best cats in the world Everyone feels that way about their chosen breed.

I look at it as an expensive hobby. I am willing to put money into it as I am not expecting to make profits. Kitten sales help, but do not cover every expense that comes up.

If you haven't chosen a breed, I'l suggest doing some research as well. You don't want to produce a few show cats, but then have no market for your pet quality kittens. You are responsible for every kitten you help into this world. That includes making sure everyone has a good home to go to. We need to ensure that we are being very careful to not contribute to the overflow of cats in the world.

To answer your questions, male cats are likely to begin marking their territory and are usually kept separate from the main cat population in the house for everyone's safety. Whole females may also mark their territory but generally will get along fine with each other and with altered cats as well. I have a mix of females and spayed females in my house, and my male lives in a cat house with another neutered male for company.

 

[missymotus]

You don't typically have just one boy and one girl, that's not enough work for the boy. You can start with one girl and stud her out with your mentors help.

Now how do you get a mentor? Exhibit a neuter or two for several years, learn all about the breed, network with other breeders.

As to affecting your neutered boy, I have 2 neuters in the house. One acts like a stud boy when the girls call, yowling, serenading and mounting (thankfully no spraying). The other pays no attention. Everyday living is quite normal.

Hormonal girls can be tricky and need their own space, not getting along with others at times. And boys need their own stud pen, which over here is done outside.

It's a lot of work and at times heartbreaking and frustrating, those times you need your breeder friends and mentors around. You need a deep passion for your breed, a breed you just can't live without.

 

[StefanZ]

Who is your neutered you do have?  Is he your entry ticket into the world of your dreamed of breed and the world of showing (= purebred of said breed), or is he "just" your pet, and your proof you are not entirely new at having cats?  

If the first, yes, you may be somewhat along the way.  If second - you do have still a long way to go. 

But if you do burn strongly enough, you can do it, even if you have just taken some short first steps so far.

One tip is also, you do cooperate with some nice shelter nearby or a rescue group, and help them with their high preg moms.  You can make it easy for you and just take in dumped or astray moms (ie friendly, non ferale).

You dont need to take in semiferale and foster them, if you dont want.  (Although this is very revarding for them who do it.    )

This way you will get lotsa of valuable experience of handling high preg, deliveries, small kittens, and all the difficulties.   All this experience you be extremely valuable for you later, when you do have your own queens and kittens, each of them riding  a fortune for you (both costs and hopefully the fee you hopeully will get if everything goes well).

And these cats will get their chance in the life - as many of them are otherwise just pts, even in otherwise good shelters.

You are getting good experience while also doing a praiseworthy good deed.

Good luck!

 

[livy90]

I apologize for not being more clearer. I was fairly tired when i wrote that message. I have a 8 month old birman male, who is extremely the best choice my partner and i have made after doing weeks of research on them. I have been very interested in breeding for some time now. We would of allowed to breed the male we have now but at the time i was certain i wanted to breed.. was not possible because of financial reasons, so we ended up getting him desexed. But now that we do have the money to do it and are fully aware of the costs and everything you have said, we think it would be a good thing. Not mainly because of the money but because i know it will benefit me and others. I do believe i would be good at it because as i said, ive done a lot of research and i have also had cats my whole life. 

Needless to say, I think there is a lot of pro's then cons because yes ok its easier said then done and may sound easy then what it really is, i know that.. But in my opinion it does benefit and can do good things also if im smart bout it. Just one small example, I find that the birman breed is fairly difficult to find now days, We got very lucky with our current one, after searching and searching for a while. I would just love to make people happy who wish to have a birman cat. 

I am thinking of getting two kittens, female and male. When they are ready to breed, i will be a registerd breeder. IF things dont go to according to plans, we can always just desex them and keep them as house pets like my current one now. 
My partner and i are planning to move to a more bigger suitable house, where the breeding will take place and be a much better environment for all. 

I am sorry once again if im not precise enough. I am very very tired after a huge day today. 
I think ive explained what i needed to..

 

 

[livy90]

lol also forgot to mention, The birman we have now.. is a very friendly cat and gets a long with other cats. I had a stray female cat here who was pregnant and when i allowed her to come inside and have her kittens, my birman got along with her and the kittens very well. All kittens went to good homes, i made sure of that. I did not charge anything for them because they were not pure breeds and i was not looking to make money off them. I got her desexed afterwards. 
Having said that, I think there is more of a chance for all three cats to get along if i were to get them as kittens and let them kind of grow up with my current birman. And as a mentioned before, i will be in a suitable home so that will make it far more easier and controllable. 

Also, i wasnt really looking for opinions on the actual breeding matter. I just needed to know whether all three cats would get along or not lol. 
But perhaps maybe i have an idea. And like i said.. can get them desexed if need to. I love cats a lot and having three birmans.. would be wonderful because you could not ask for a better indoor cat/suitable companionship/breed. 

Anyway, thanks for all comments and advices xx 

Ps, if interested, check out this album..  
http://www.thecatsite.com/gallery/album/view/id/25523/user_id/45521/sort/display_order/page/40

 

[StefanZ]

As you plan on having a male and a female of good breeding quality, having OK from their breeder, being also member with suitable cat clubs and cat association, but still not entirely sure if you will really go all out and be a breeder.

There are a couple of in-betweens.

You can lend out this male for stud services, to other breeders.(or the ladies coming to your place)  Watch of course out so it is not ByB breeders or or unregistered females, perhaps even moggies.

But many/most breeders wants to renew their genes, not to produce the same genetical individal time and again.   This is the common in Sweden - ie using different studs, lending them (or travelling to the stud).  That young stud often owned by persons who dont themselves are active breeders. Them bough the cat as their family member and pet, although waiting with the desexing.

I know in other countries like USA this is NOT the most common, but in Sweden and Scandinavia - is.

Especially as we in Sweden dont desex when they are kittens - this is not necessary optimal, but this is how it is here.

You can perhaps cooperate with your breeder, ie the person you buy the cats from.  Being a sort of sub-breeder under her.  There are some different variations.  Between "just" having her as one of yours mentor - which you should in all variations. And in the other end,  you get the cat more or less for free, and she has the right to take 2 litters, being her litters.  You being esseintially a caretaker in this period, becoming owner in full firstly when she goes older.     Taking your own one of two litters later on.

During the time, be sure you are member of a local cat club (they have surely courses, mentors etc),

be member of some suitable Cat association, do visit all shows around you can, and preferably also, do participate there with your cat, among your collegues Birma, but in the neuter class.

This way you march stright into this world.
 

Good luck!

 

[orientalslave]

It would be very unusual to start breeding with your own male.  Nearly everyone starts with a female and takes them somewhere else to stud.  Entire males are not house pets - they nearly all spray and their urine is vile smelling.  In the UK they live in a stud house, a secure outside house with an inside heated area, an outside run and a smaller queen's quarters.  Getting a stud house and erecting it will probably cost more than buying the lad to live in it.  It's also a lot of hard work having a stud - you have to spend time with him, make sure he has enough 'work' (he is a gigolo after all) to keep him happy, there is lots of cleaning and some females in call spray and urinate all over the place as well.

I also still don't feel you want to breed in a serious way as in try to breed good show-quality cats.  You haven't mentioned going to shows for example.

However you need to start by finding registered breeders of Birmans.  You can't breed registered kittens from unregistered parents, at least you can't in the UK, presume the US is the same.  Then discuss your desire to breed with them.  If you can find any cat shows in your area go and visit a few as well.

 

[StefanZ]

 I had a stray female cat here who was pregnant and when i allowed her to come inside and have her kittens, my birman got along with her and the kittens very well. All kittens went to good homes, i made sure of that. I did not charge anything for them because they were not pure breeds and i was not looking to make money off them.

I see you had already began to train on as caretaker of high pregs, just like I advised-.   

But normally, you SHALL charge for them. Because, for most people what is for free, is virtually worthless.  So do always charge, unless exceptionally when the kitten is given and taken as a precious gift.

A good solution is you ask for a donation to some charity, half anonymously - in the cats name. Say, Doctors without boundaries, Red Cross / Green Halfmoon, some nice church group.....  Let the new owner decide.

It will cost, and it will connect the kitten with noble feeling to giving to a good cause,

This will make a strong, magical protection for the cat.

 

[missymotus]

It would be very unusual to start breeding with your own male.  Nearly everyone starts with a female and takes them somewhere else to stud.  

You haven't mentioned going to shows for example.

However you need to start by finding registered breeders of Birmans.  You can't breed registered kittens from unregistered parents, at least you can't in the UK, presume the US is the same.  

Agree on not starting with a male, and not having just a pair. Boys need more work than one girl.

Not sure where the OP is located, but here you need to be a registered breeder before anyone will sell you entire cats - and even then anyone who doesn't know you won't sell you a cat, and if they will it's unlikely to be a breeder you'd want to work with. Breeding cats are not, and shouldn't be, easy to come by.

 

[nekochan]

Do you show your Birman? I think that is a good way to start, you will be able to meet breeders and possibly find a mentor, in addition to becoming more familiar with the breed standard and getting more contacts with other breeders.

 

[northernglow]

It would be very unusual to start breeding with your own male.  Nearly everyone starts with a female and takes them somewhere else to stud.  Entire males are not house pets - they nearly all spray and their urine is vile smelling.  In the UK they live in a stud house, a secure outside house with an inside heated area, an outside run and a smaller queen's quarters. 

The cases are really different depending on your location.

I started with owning (and showing) a stud who was available for few females before I registered my prefix. I did have a pet quality (due to coat length) Brit before him too. Here in Scandinavia studs are pets just like any other cats, we don't build separate buildings to put them in, they live in the house, indoors with us. My stud luckily happens to be fairly good boy and he doesn't spray or even smell like stud (he will be 5 years old next week). All my visitors love him 'cause he just wants belly rubs and purrs a lot. I have had a stud who did spray and smell, other than that he was well behaved and affectionate, so I know it can be hard to keep a 'manly' stud. 

Depending on how the OP had planned to live with the cats, I'd recommend a visit to a breeder who keeps studs in their house so the OP can see, hear and smell if that's how they want to keep their studs. I know most aren't as lucky as I am with mine, so it would be good to see what they might be getting into. It's actually my older female who is the hardest to live with because she will mark territory when in heat (doesn't spray but does her businesses on certain places outside the litterboxes), she's often dominant and cranky to the other cats and yowls constantly day and night for a week when in heat. At the moment she is having a good phase and is being very nice and loving (licking my toes as I type..silly cat). *knocks on wood*

 

[missymotus]

Northern, curious how does that work with 2-4 boys? And with girls in the house? 

Most studs I know spray, keeping them indoors is pretty unheard of over here. They live in stud runs outdoors, still visited and loved just as much as the girls in the house, some dirty girls will live out in the cattery too. I am guessing as the OP used the term 'desexed' that they are from Aus or NZ.

 

[livy90]

Well thanks guys! 
lol i still find it funny that each and everyone of you, Keeps talking bout breeding when all i wanted to know was if all three cats can get along lol.. 
Maybe i shouldn't have mentioned the breeding i don't know but ok anyway hahah. If i needed suggestions or opinions on breeding, i would of asked bout that specifically 
As i said, i know bout breeding, i did a lot of research. 

I just needed to know if  three cats can get along fine. But i got my answer elsewhere anywho. 

Thanks everyone! catch you all later xx 

 

[orientalslave]

We keep talking about breeding as your original post rung big warning bells, and because predicting if cats will get on is impossible.  And because you keep avoiding talking about breeding - most aspirant breeders cannot stop talking about it.

 

[livy90]

what do you mean by big warning bells? 
And my last two posts were bout the breeding matter. 
I may be new at the whole breeding but my partner and i are doing a lot of research and making sure we are going to do everything right. 
I have a big passion and love for animals, particularly cats and dogs. I wish to become a registered breeder and yes whilst the money is a bonus but im actually not really looking at it in that way. 
I have been interested in breeding since i was a teenager and i know i would be really good at it. My partner and i have had a lot of talks bout having three cats and i only came on here to seek out whether anyone else has had the experience of owning three cats and whether they get along or not. Because yes as you have made a valid point "predicting if cats will get along is impossible" I just thought that maybe some people on here would give me some insight. After all, im sure im not the only person who has had more then one or two cats lol. 
Anyway.. As i said, im doing some readings/research. Im sure i will figure things out from here on =) 

 

[northernglow]

Northern, curious how does that work with 2-4 boys? And with girls in the house? 

Most studs I know spray, keeping them indoors is pretty unheard of over here. They live in stud runs outdoors, still visited and loved just as much as the girls in the house, some dirty girls will live out in the cattery too. I am guessing as the OP used the term 'desexed' that they are from Aus or NZ.

I wrote a long post yesterday and then it disappeared so I may forget something now.

I have had only 2 males at the same time, first Kuura and Casper (lost him to cancer), they had a 'romance' going on.. Utu, my neuter never accepted Casper as he was already a big kitty when I got him and it has now become clear that Utu will not accept any new adults, only kittens who can grown under his supervision. After that I had (still have) Kuura and his son Tomu, who was neutered as an adult. No problems there, Kuura just mounts Tomu, still does that. Tomu is fine with it and if it bothers him, he goes away. My adult queen Luna is higher in the 'pack hierarchy' than Kuura, and feisty, so Kuura leaves her alone completely unless she's in heat. Luna will kick his a** if Kuura tries something when she's not willing. I don't leave them unsupervised together however, so I divide my residence into 2 separate sections when I'm not at home or am sleeping etc. Kuura on the other side and Luna on the other, neuters take turns as 'company keepers' but most of the time the longhairs are together and shorthairs together (except Mina, she stays with her mom when visiting me). Others do this too. 

Building a separate stud house would be as expensive as building another proper house on your property (and getting a permit for something like that would be a pita). A lightly heated shed would not cover it as the temperatures can get very low during the winter, here in the southern parts of the country the worst I remember some years ago has been -36C = -33F, but more likely between -10C and -25C (-13F). We don't have large catteries, it would obviously mean that you need a huge house and tons of money, and here, specially in the larger cities, most people live in apartment complexes.

We have small family catteries that usually have something like 1-6 cats (that includes possible neuters) and maybe few other cats that live with friends/family members but belong to the breeder. Usually the breeders have just one or 2 studs at their own place and more females, leasing studs is common, and so is the situations where they get a breeding quality kitten who goes immediately to live with a friend or relative. They get the cat's legal ownership after it's been neutered/spayed and doesn't have to move as an adult as it's been living in it's forever home since the beginning. Most of these friends/relatives end up getting another kitty to keep for the breeder, so they may have more than one of the breeder's breeding cats. Most often studs are the ones living elsewhere. They are used as quickly as possible for breeding so they can be neutered soon if they spray, and if they don't, they remain intact a bit longer. There's usually a contract made about how many litters or kittens the stud is supposed to have before he gets neutered, and if that amount is not reached in a certain time, for example until the stud turns 3 years old, he will be neutered then at the latest.

I know a mother & daughter who breed cats together so that the daughter has the females and cattery prefix, and her mom keeps studs. There are probably many more catteries running like theirs.

This is a small country, so "everyone knows everyone" is quite often the case within breed circles. And then of course colors, for example the shaded silver Brits. We who have them pretty much know all the others who have them too (breeding and showing cats). So the stud 'renting' is easier and you will quickly hear if someone is not to be trusted. The contacts are everything when you breed in a cold small country.

I wish to become a registered breeder and yes whilst the money is a bonus but im actually not really looking at it in that way. 

I don't know where you got the idea you'd be getting money from breeding? You'll be lucky if you break even after all the expenses and if nothing goes wrong. Might be different for huge business catteries, but in the smaller scale it rarely leaves you with nothing 'extra'.

 

[StefanZ]

 all i wanted to know was if all three cats can get along lol.. 

This question you did answered yourself when you told your neuter is very friendly. Half job done!

You can have 100% quaranties, but the odds are heavily on your side.   I though you recognized it yourself writing about his friendliness, even to small kittens.

Now, YOU did talked about breeding and wanted more info. This is why people DO start treads on Breeding forum.  These: will three get along was an extra question.

If they  want to ask a very basic question about basic behavior, they do start a tread on Behavior forum.

Please dont be rude to people who give you hours of their time.  Please pretend at least to be interested when you got so many excellent answers.

Yes, I got a little sour. I did.

 

[orientalslave]

what do you mean by big warning bells? 
And my last two posts were bout the breeding matter. 
I may be new at the whole breeding but my partner and i are doing a lot of research and making sure we are going to do everything right. 
I have a big passion and love for animals, particularly cats and dogs. I wish to become a registered breeder and yes whilst the money is a bonus but im actually not really looking at it in that way. 
I have been interested in breeding since i was a teenager and i know i would be really good at it. My partner and i have had a lot of talks bout having three cats and i only came on here to seek out whether anyone else has had the experience of owning three cats and whether they get along or not. Because yes as you have made a valid point "predicting if cats will get along is impossible" I just thought that maybe some people on here would give me some insight. After all, im sure im not the only person who has had more then one or two cats lol. 
Anyway.. As i said, im doing some readings/research. Im sure i will figure things out from here on =) 

You seem new to the whole pedigree cat thing, and no-one knows if they would be 'good at it' or not.  The point of breeding is producing good quality (e.g. healthy, happy and looking like they should) pedigree cats.  Apparently knowing nothing about pedigree breeds and so on is a warning bell.

My advice, and that of a lot of people here, would be to go to some shows, see what breed you really, really like - personality as well as looks - remembering that Persians (for example) usually take a lot of hard work to look after because of the grooming, where as Siamese, Orientals, Ocicats and many other breeds are fine with very little grooming. 

Then get a show neuter, and get known in shows in your area.  You will get to know breeders, talk to them, find out the ins and outs of their breed, and in a couple of years (or more) you will be ready to buy your first breeding queen.