Has anyone had success with 're-introductions'?

[Cosmic76]

Hi all. I've come to the end of my tether with my two female cats (both spayed). I have had Skampi for 2 years from kitten, and Lucky came along last year as a feral kitten I took in and tamed. She's a year old now, and absolutely lovely. Skampi has never taken to Lucky (she's great with my other cat), but she has never attacked her viciously and there is no posturing. Skampi's style is to torment, she treats her like prey. It's got to the point that she only has to hear the cat flap and she will zone in on her. The really strange thing is, if they are both in my kitchen, Skampi ignores her. They can eat together, they have even slept together before. My vet says that because Lucky acts like a victim and reacts badly to Skampi's she in effect ramps up the bad behaviour and Skampi has become a bully.

I don't know to fix this. Most advice tells me to start a re-introduction, seperate them for a few weeks and start again. I just don't know how successful that will be. Both are used to having the run of the house, and they frequently goes outside via catflap. To be able to do this, I would have to shut Skampi upstairs and she wouldn't be able to go out... Is that cruel? I don't know..

Has anyone done reintroductions before?

 

[ArtNJ]

Reintroductions can be great for some things, like a rushed introduction that went bad, or cats that used to get along but got in a huge fight where a separation of a few days isn't enough. I am not exactly sure whats going on in your situation, but for a two year old to treat a younger cat/kitten "as prey" is, generally speaking, very consistent with play. Cats are predators, and they play by simulating hunting and fighting behaviors. If the kitten won't play fight back due to lack of confidence, then its rather natural that a bit more stalking, pouncing and play biting the neck would be involved. If this is what it is, I'm not sure a reintroduction will do much.

All of that said, I feel like we need more details about exactly how they act, how old the kitten is now, what the intro process was, how old the third cat is and what the situation is there, etc.

 

[Cosmic76]

Hi ArtNJ! Thank you for your reply, I too am unsure.

Lucky came to me as a bit of an accident, I was fostering a litter of feral farm kittens and she escaped getting a leg injury in the process, her litter were due to go to Cats Protection so I decided to keep her and pay for her treatment (out of guilt mainly). Naturally being a feral farm kitten she took a long time to warm up to humans and was very fearful for the longest time, but she lived in a safe room and I tamed her to the point that she was perfectly fine with me and my partner although still to this day is not very confident around others, unless they are sat down. She has taken to my male ginger cat who is extremely placid, and had no fear of him, they play happily together.

Skampi was a year and a half old when Lucky came to live with us, she's always been a temperamental cat, tries to play aggressively with us and also has a big old issue with next doors cat too.

What she's doing is most definitely play... It's just extreme, and Lucky perceives it as aggression. She growls and puts her ears back, and tries to tell her to back off but Skampi just sees this as challenge and proceeds with her attack anyway. As I mentioned before, Skampi is feeding off the reaction. But it's got obsessive, to the point that if Lucky is asleep in a bed (I have constructed a whole cat wall with very high beds, walkways, jumping posts etc to give them height and traffic options) Skampi will seek her out and hone in on her with the purpose of 'attacking' her, which looks a lot like very boisterous play.

God knows how to curb it...

Oh, sorry just to answer a couple more of your questions, Lucky is now 1 year old, and my third male cat is 5. He did have a brother up until May this year who was also 5, and also friends with everyone.

 

[ArtNJ]

Unfortunately, 1 1/2 y.o. seems to be about the peak of crazy stupid enthusiasm for play x body mass so while somewhat rare (kittens are normally very adaptible) its not totally outside the range of normal that a skittish kitten with a difficult background might not warm up. Usually there is *some* chilling out by 2, but not always, and sometimes it can be not enough. So I think its highly likely this is what you are dealing with.

A reintroduction is fairly unlikely to work for this unless you extend it months, and even then, it may just be the adult cat getting older and chilling out rather than the process. Time *will* help, and given the young ages it is still possible they will become friends. All of that said, maybe its worth trying a reintroduction process just on the off chance it helps? I probably wouldn't, but reasonable minds can differ.

 

[Cosmic76]

That reply was actually very relieving, and confirm what I hoped, that time would be the healer... it's my own guilt eating me at the moment, Lucky tends to hightail it out the cat flap at the first sign of "lock on" and I feel bad because it's miserable outside. I know she takes refuge in our greenhouse, so I leave it open for her, but it's not right.

I have decided that a re-introduction will be Plan B... as you say, the set of circumstances are not quite befitting the measure just yet. You are absolutely right about her age and it being her peak... she's turned into quite the devil recently! I have done some other research and it looks I might need to find some ways to engage with her myself in some controlled prey-simulated play, and try and enforce that you play with ME, not the scared witless cat lol. I've briefed my partner (who thinks it's a great lark to rough-house with her, no more!) and I have got some toys steeping in cat nip and bought a wide variety on Amazon being delivered tomorrow!! Operation Redirection is on the move ... Thanks ArtNJ, your advice was a huge help.

 

[ArtNJ]

Your welcome! Just dont play rough with hands, that can send the wrong message. So use toys.

 

[KavKit]

I have had almost a year long "acceptance" treaty in my house. Have heart, sometimes it just takes time. Especially with younger cats, and females. Female cats are much more territorial but their play plummets as they age. I have a two year old kitty and a 12 year old kitty. The older cat came to us back in February, while the younger cat we have had. I was crestfallen for months thinking they would have to stay forever separated and I would have to do a lock step prisoner exchange from room to room. But it really does sometimes just take time. They have their own special rooms that the other cannot enter with their own litter boxes and food bowls. So they have a safe haven. They dont love each other yet, they are not grooming each other or snuggling during naps. But they dont chase or fight or hiss. They co-exist in the same room and even nose boop for greetings.

When we first brought them together the younger original cat would slink around and crouch in a fight or flight stance constantly, causing the other to chase. But I learned to read their moods and body language. When the young one was more relaxed I would let them hang out, when he looked tense I would put one in their room (not punishment just removing the situation). Eventually the young one gained confidence and his relaxed attitude had a chain reaction to the older cat. I hope it helps.

 

[Cosmic76]

That's amazing advice.. I think I need to try that. We have noticed that our 2 year old has really ramped up the bullying recently, but the 1 year old won't stand up for herself so it's a self perpetuating cycle. I have just bought a screen to seperate the kitchen (with cat flap) from the rest of the house so at least while we are home the younger one can come home and eat in peace! You are absolutely right, if we could build her confidence up then I think the problem would sort itself out! If that fails I think we will sort out a 'time out' room... Even if it's for just a short time. I'm scared Lucky will find a new home at this rate!

 

[katiekat89]

Hi! I was just curious if this ever got better?

 

[Cosmic76]

Hi! I was just curious if this ever got better?

Hi Katiekat,
Thank you for asking, are you in a similar situation?
The answer is unfortunately not much, but there has been progression. Skampi (the aggressor) had been diagnosed this year with multiple conditions, historical pancreatitis, chronic skin allergies (dust mites and mould), asthma and Feline Hypersynesthisia This MAY be the reason she is reactive. She is on Gabapentin and Steroids currently and we have noticed a slight improvement in her behaviour, but it's nowhere near where we'd like to be at We have an appointment with Behaviourist at the end this month where the plan is likely to be adding an SSRI (antidepressant) to the mix to see if this will make a difference. Sorry it's not particularly encouraging if you were looking for advice, we have a unique situation where we are now trying to manage her rocky health as well and it may well be the root of the issues. If the behaviouralist isn't able to resolve the issue than we will be out of ideas.

 

[Furballsmom]

Hi

if we could build her confidence up

Aside from her health issues, can you play more with Lucky and love on her lots and help build her confidence? Then paly with both of them together so that you don't have jealousy.

 

[katiekat89]

Hi Katiekat,
Thank you for asking, are you in a similar situation?
The answer is unfortunately not much, but there has been progression. Skampi (the aggressor) had been diagnosed this year with multiple conditions, historical pancreatitis, chronic skin allergies (dust mites and mould), asthma and Feline Hypersynesthisia This MAY be the reason she is reactive. She is on Gabapentin and Steroids currently and we have noticed a slight improvement in her behaviour, but it's nowhere near where we'd like to be at We have an appointment with Behaviourist at the end this month where the plan is likely to be adding an SSRI (antidepressant) to the mix to see if this will make a difference. Sorry it's not particularly encouraging if you were looking for advice, we have a unique situation where we are now trying to manage her rocky health as well and it may well be the root of the issues. If the behaviouralist isn't able to resolve the issue than we will be out of ideas.

yes - I am in a bit of a similar situation, but yours does sound unique with the added health issues. I’m sorry you’re dealing with that! My 2 cats (2yo male & 4yo female) have coexisted pretty peacefully for 2 years, but recently have begun fighting with the 2yo bullying/stalking the 4yo. I am trying gabapentin now with the bully but it seems to just knock him out and doesn’t seem sustainable long term - and today, about 2 hours after he had a dose, he still tried to go after my other cat! He ended up falling over because he was wobbly from the gaba I’m going to discuss starting him on Paxil which my vet also recommended, and have an appt with a behaviorist on Monday. It’s stressful living with cats who don’t get along

 

[Cosmic76]

Hi


Aside from her health issues, can you play more with Lucky and love on her lots and help build her confidence? Then paly with both of them together so that you don't have jealousy.

We absolutely have done that, and she's super confident but only in the kitchen, she will venture into the living area but only sleeps in a specific bed high up on the wall. She is very loving towards us. We have played with them together and they can eat together too, but Skampi won't tolerate her coming outside of the "agreeable" areas, and we've tried.

 

[Cosmic76]

yes - I am in a bit of a similar situation, but yours does sound unique with the added health issues. I’m sorry you’re dealing with that! My 2 cats (2yo male & 4yo female) have coexisted pretty peacefully for 2 years, but recently have begun fighting with the 2yo bullying/stalking the 4yo. I am trying gabapentin now with the bully but it seems to just knock him out and doesn’t seem sustainable long term - and today, about 2 hours after he had a dose, he still tried to go after my other cat! He ended up falling over because he was wobbly from the gaba I’m going to discuss starting him on Paxil which my vet also recommended, and have an appt with a behaviorist on Monday. It’s stressful living with cats who don’t get along

Okay, so not too different then actually! We had a similar trajectory, we had a pretty successful introduction period, but it declined about a year after.

Few things I would comment on, it sounds like your Gabapentin dose is either too high or too frequent. We are actually only giving her a dose once day, even though the vet said it would wear off after 8 hours and is supposed to be administered every 8 hours. It still seems to be effective for us. She's never been dopey on it.

Secondly, it sounds like you have a very similar behavioural situation as us. Is there a chance there is something underlying going on with your bully? It's unusual for behaviour to change like that if you have previous harmony. We are now aware that our bullys behaviour started as a result of her being defensive over her ailments and she was having battles with next doors cat. She was referring the aggression onto an easier target. The improvements have been noted since we started treating her conditions. We are fairly convinced now that we need to "reset" her as it's becoming a vicious circle, she was attacking because she was in pain, but now she's attacking because she's got anxiety which is making her symptoms worse and triggered Feline Hypersynesthisia. Once we can get on top of the anxiety we think we can go back to square 1 where she's not in pain and can co-habit with Lucky again.

Has your bully (would love to know his name, hate calling him that!) had a work over? Bloods, etc? Do you have any other cats in the neighbourhood causing him to be territorial?

 

[katiekat89]

Okay, so not too different then actually! We had a similar trajectory, we had a pretty successful introduction period, but it declined about a year after.

Few things I would comment on, it sounds like your Gabapentin dose is either too high or too frequent. We are actually only giving her a dose once day, even though the vet said it would wear off after 8 hours and is supposed to be administered every 8 hours. It still seems to be effective for us. She's never been dopey on it.

Secondly, it sounds like you have a very similar behavioural situation as us. Is there a chance there is something underlying going on with your bully? It's unusual for behaviour to change like that if you have previous harmony. We are now aware that our bullys behaviour started as a result of her being defensive over her ailments and she was having battles with next doors cat. She was referring the aggression onto an easier target. The improvements have been noted since we started treating her conditions. We are fairly convinced now that we need to "reset" her as it's becoming a vicious circle, she was attacking because she was in pain, but now she's attacking because she's got anxiety which is making her symptoms worse and triggered Feline Hypersynesthisia. Once we can get on top of the anxiety we think we can go back to square 1 where she's not in pain and can co-habit with Lucky again.

Has your bully (would love to know his name, hate calling him that!) had a work over? Bloods, etc? Do you have any other cats in the neighbourhood causing him to be territorial?

Hmm. Theo (the bully) had blood & urine checked and both came back fine. He is really bad about eating stuff he’s not supposed to - so I do sometimes wonder if he could have something that’s hurting his tummy, but he’s not having any gastrointestinal symptoms really. He’s an indoor cat and I don’t think there are too many strays in the neighborhood that maybe he could have seen from the window and triggered something. As for the gabapentin, the vet prescribed 100mg every 12 hours. I have been giving him slightly less though as the first time I gave it to him he threw up and was incredibly wobbly and it was too sad. It doesn’t seem to be helping the behavior though. He is now just stalking Eleanor kind of incessantly - it’s not an all day thing but once he starts it’s hard to get him to stop. He just follows her extremely closely and then tries to pounce. It happened yesterday a few hours after the gabapentin, and she jumped up on a table to escape, and he tried to follow. She swatted at him and he actually fell down because he was so wobbly, but still so intent on getting to her. It’s incredibly frustrating

 

[katiekat89]

Hmm. Theo (the bully) had blood & urine checked and both came back fine. He is really bad about eating stuff he’s not supposed to - so I do sometimes wonder if he could have something that’s hurting his tummy, but he’s not having any gastrointestinal symptoms really. He’s an indoor cat and I don’t think there are too many strays in the neighborhood that maybe he could have seen from the window and triggered something. As for the gabapentin, the vet prescribed 100mg every 12 hours. I have been giving him slightly less though as the first time I gave it to him he threw up and was incredibly wobbly and it was too sad. It doesn’t seem to be helping the behavior though. He is now just stalking Eleanor kind of incessantly - it’s not an all day thing but once he starts it’s hard to get him to stop. He just follows her extremely closely and then tries to pounce. It happened yesterday a few hours after the gabapentin, and she jumped up on a table to escape, and he tried to follow. She swatted at him and he actually fell down because he was so wobbly, but still so intent on getting to her. It’s incredibly frustrating

I just realized I already told you about the gaba event! But yeah. I’m just not sure it’s helping.

 

[Furballsmom]

once he starts it’s hard to get him to stop.

I may be missing something but can you safely distract him, redirect him or even move him to a room where you can close the door? This isn't an one-and-done solution and would need to be repeated, consistently, but I'd sure rather see this than having to use gaba on him.

 

[katiekat89]

I may be missing something but can you safely distract him, redirect him or even move him to a room where you can close the door? This isn't an one-and-done solution and would need to be repeated, consistently, but I'd sure rather see this than having to use gaba on him.

I have been trying this, yes. For the most part he won’t pay attention to a toy when he gets like this - only a laser pointer will distract him, but I’ve read this can be problematic and it could cause him more frustration since he can’t catch it. I can sometimes just call him over to me and he’ll walk away, but then he’ll walk back over to her pretty quickly. It’s like he just gets into a trance or something and just has to follow her. I have tried time outs and putting him in the bathroom when he starts getting like that, but again it doesn’t seem to help - he comes back out and goes right back for her. She (the victim) also will stay by the bathroom door unless I distract her away from it.

 

[Furballsmom]

One more thought, have you tried clicker training?

 

[katiekat89]

One more thought, have you tried clicker training?

No I haven’t! I was going to look into it - I don’t really understand the purpose or how it works?