Grains Vs No Grains

Azazel

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Pet food was made up during WWII to use up human waste products, and so that human-edible meat wasn't fed to pets. Before that, people went to the butcher to get scraps and offal for their pets, and also fed them the leftovers from human meals. So, pet food is cheap and convenient, but not exactly made for the animal's benefit.
Good point - let's also not forget that in countries around the world where pet food industries have not been so strongly established, people continue to feed raw meat scraps to cats and it's considered normal.
 

MissClouseau

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OK first, I appreciate you taking time to write your opinion in such a detailed way A Azazel . You certainly gave me some things to search more about. To respond a few things...

I don't think the debate about grain vs. grain-free is about natural vs. unnatural.
By natural I meant what cats do in the wild. Like just because they eat no/smaller amount of grains does not necessarily mean it's better for their health. Diets didn't evolve for a long life. Most of the time it's a combination of promoting early fertility to keep the species going and a matter of sources around. Whether the commercials food formulas being better or not is still another discussion. I mean obviously not all do considering some brands don't do any research whatsoever at all.

I really don't think that Purina and Mars are creating pet food for the purpose of keeping cats alive longer than if they lived in the wild.
Well they probably make food to keep the cats healthy and alive considering food is always blamed when a cat gets sick, the best advertisement is "my cat eats this and she's alive and healthy", and an alive cat will continue to be a customer.

The only reason pet food companies do not use lots of fresh animal protein in their foods is because it's expensive and it's very difficult to sustain a business model this way
That's my personal #1 skepticism about commercial diets. Like you said meat is expensive and there may not even be enough meat for all the customers considering these brands are everywhere but the production is limited to 1 or couple countries. The rest imports from them.

We know for a fact that cats, like other animals in the feline family, are obligate carnivores that do not process grains, legumes, and veggies properly. Their entire physiological make-up and lifestyle (i.e., hunt, eat, sleep, and repeat) screams "raw meat!"
You have a point but also, the chances are cats in the nature couldn't eat as much meat as housecats could. Even indoor-outdoor cats typically do not exercise as much as their ancestors did who had to hunt for food AND run away from predators. Heart health alone makes me question how an animal-products-only diet would work in a housecat. Exercise plays a role in cats' heart health too for example and a housecat having even more meat than a cat in the nature who gets more exercise... we don't have data what this difference would/could make in their health.

Nor a data on... the animal products we give are not the same as freshly-hunted animal. All animal products are processed one way or the other at some level and we get them so long after the animal was killed.

There has only been a small sliver of empirical work conducted looking at the health of raw-fed vs non raw fed cats, but the raw feeding community knows based on experience that their cats have thrived on raw diets
And I'm following all the experiences I can find! :-) That said, personally I know zero person whose cat is a senior now and been on a raw diet all/most his life. I couldn't get anything about a longterm-diet from "my cat has been on a raw diet.. for 3 years now."

And finally... no human doctor would ever tell you that you should eat processed food over fresh food. Veterinarians are the only health professionals who recommend this.
I'm pretty sure human doctors also advise against humans eating uncooked meat. Cats do not eat cooked meat in the wild but they also get diseases from the preys they eat. Human doctors also advice against making meat a big part of our diets although we are omnivores - the general conclusion seem to be making meat only a small part of our diet as with our lack of exercise and all as much meat as our ancestors did would be just too much for us that leads to earlier death.

Well I can only hope we are all doing the best for our own cats. I'm not fully confident with my diet decisions as you see!
 

daftcat75

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Cats are not tiny humans! (Or tiny dogs.) The research that suggests meat products may not be so good for humans and human heart health DOES NOT APPLY to cats. Different physiologies! The dangers that raw meat pose to humans also DOES NOT APPLY to cats. They have a shorter, quicker, digestion tract that's more acidic. Cats can eat bone. Humans cannot. Cats don't get food-borne illnesses. The concern the US FDA, vets, the pet food industry, and consumers have over raw meat and bacteria is overblown. It's a human concern about a human problem. And that's my biggest pet peeve about cat care and the cat care industries. They prey on this mistaken notion that human concerns are concerns for cats too. Or that what's good for human health--grains, fruits, and vegetables--are also good for cat's health. They are not! Cat's don't have the digestion for them. The prevalence of IBD in cats is proof of this.
 

Azazel

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Cats are not tiny humans! (Or tiny dogs.) The research that suggests meat products may not be so good for humans and human heart health DOES NOT APPLY to cats. Different physiologies! The dangers that raw meat pose to humans also DOES NOT APPLY to cats. They have a shorter, quicker, digestion tract that's more acidic. Cats can eat bone. Humans cannot. Cats don't get food-borne illnesses. The concern the US FDA, vets, the pet food industry, and consumers have over raw meat and bacteria is overblown. It's a human concern about a human problem. And that's my biggest pet peeve about cat care and the cat care industries. They prey on this mistaken notion that human concerns are concerns for cats too. Or that what's good for human health--grains, fruits, and vegetables--are also good for cat's health. They are not! Cat's don't have the digestion for them. The prevalence of IBD in cats is proof of this.
:yeah:
 

Azazel

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MissClouseau MissClouseau What matters is that you’re at least asking questions and trying to find the best solution for your cat. For me, it really just comes down to logic and understanding the cultural and historical context of the pet food industry. The question of whether grains or legumes should be fed to cats shouldn’t even be a question. We already know that they are carnivores. The only reason it’s a question is because of the creation of a pet food industry ... it’s a business and money issue. The real question for the pet food companies is “what can we replace animal protein with in our foods that won’t kill people’s cats and save us a ton of money?”

I mean, what do you think they feed captive lions and other large cats? Raw meat! No one sits around pondering over whether grains would be better for them. :lol:

Although I suppose one day Purina might decide to expand to the big cat world.. :rolleyes2:
 

MissClouseau

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The dangers that raw meat pose to humans also DOES NOT APPLY to cats. They have a shorter, quicker, digestion tract that's more acidic. Cats can eat bone. Humans cannot. Cats don't get food-borne illnesses.
Cats can and do get viruses and bacteria from raw meat. One of them: Avian influenza, aka bird flu. For another thing that is much more common: toxoplasmosis.
 

Azazel

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Cats can and do get viruses and bacteria from raw meat. One of them: Avian influenza, aka bird flu. For another thing that is much more common: toxoplasmosis.
It’s true that they can, but what we are saying is that the fear of it is overblown. Cats have also become ill and died from kibble. They aren’t immune to disease, but their digestive tracts are built to handle bacteria much better than humans. Imagine a cat walking around outside in the dirt and garbage all day and then licking his paws and grooming. They have to be able to handle all kinds of bacteria.
 

MissClouseau

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It’s true that they can, but what we are saying is that the fear of it is overblown. Cats have also become ill and died from kibble. They aren’t immune to disease, but their digestive tracts are built to handle bacteria much better than humans. Imagine a cat walking around outside in the dirt and garbage all day and then licking his paws and grooming. They have to be able to handle all kinds of bacteria.
I haven't seen a research about a single country on this so this is very unrealistic to wish but I wish there was a research that compares how much geography plays a role on things like this. Like I don't think meat is safe/risky the same amount everywhere for example, naturally there would be a difference between how safe/risky a raw diet it is for cats over this alone.

Anyway, we are all trying to do the right for our cats. Here's to hoping we are succeeding it in. Cheers to you all :beerchug:
 
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