Going Raw -- Wish Me Luck

[jonereb]

Sebastian has IBD, we think -- diarrhea and loose stool.  Normal BM's are very rare, almost non-existent.  As posted in another thread, I treated him for parasites including giardia.  Changed his diet a year ago to canned Instinct (grain-free, gluten-free).  He doesn't show signs of an allergy -- no unusual scratching, skin irritation, etc.  After hundreds of dollars spend on vet bills, I am concluding that he has IBD.

I'm in the process of switching him to a raw diet along with Acidophilus probiotics. I tried a raw diet a year ago without success.  This time, I'm using ground turkey purchased from the grocery store along with chicken gizzards. I'm freezing both and thawing as needed.  So far, the transition is going well.  No issues.

I'll add chicken livers, kidneys and/or hearts when I can get them.  The grocer didn't have any on display.  Do I need to request these organs from the butcher?  Do gizzards contain enough Taurine?  (I am cutting the gizzards into small cubes and feeding at a ratio of about 60% ground turkey and 40% chicken gizzards with Acidophilus sprinkles.)  Also, is it necessary to add bone?

 

[ldg]

I'm sorry your kitty likely has IBD, and I hope a properly balanced raw diet will help. It has for many, surely. :nod:

Unfortunately, the diet you're feeding right now isn't even close to being balanced. The good news is that nutritional deficiencies take time to develop, so you can take steps to correct this.

You say you'll add chicken livers, kidneys and hearts when you can get them. That really isn't OK (and I've never seen chicken kidneys for sale. :dk: ). Unless you can reliably source everything you need, it's better to use commercially prepared raw, if that's an option where you live.

I know many online recipes suggest using pre-ground meat. Unfortunately, there are a number of reasons not to do this:

1) Grinding increases the surface area of the food greatly; this can result in oxidation of vitamins. Yes, commercially prepared raw food for our cats is ground, but it is flash frozen, not left in a supermarket refrigerator exposed to light and air until a "best if used by" date.

2) In this day and age, where the FDA expects there to be salmonella in our poultry, ground prepared at the supermarket increases the chances of bacterial contamination. That's why people who want to feed ground buy grinders and do it themselves.


You most definitely need a source of calcium! For right now, to quickly correct the problem, you can use powdered eggshell. It takes 1/32 teaspoon of very finely ground, dried eggshells per ounce of meat to provide the correct amount of calcium (and other minerals) per ounce of meat. If you are making batches, that is 1/2 teaspoon per pound of food. If you don't have a meat grinder, for now you can use the pre-ground, but understand you are taking a risk, and there is a loss of nutrients.

You can either buy eggshell powder (last item in the eshop): http://www.knowwhatyoufeed.com/shop_online.html

or make your own if you don't live where amazon ships: http://holisticat.com/esp.html

I use these measuring spoons:
Or, of course, you can start feeding bone-in meals The wings of cornish hens or the smaller two pieces of a chicken wing are good starter bones.

Gizzards don't have a lot of nutrition in them vitamin-wise. They have a lot of glucosamine & chrondroitin, which is very good for joint health. Fed in chunks, they're great for dental health. But gizzards are not a secreting organ, so from a raw feeding point-of-view, they're considered as a muscle meat (as is heart).

You might find this link helpful: A Raw Feeding Terminology Discussion


To balance your diet, you may want to use a time-tested recipe, developed by a vet: http://www.catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood

And if you don't want to purchase a grinder that can handle bones, another TCS member just posted a method of using real bone without grinding: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/261751/bone-question-dr-piersons-ground-recipe

If you want to feed prey model raw, I suggest spending some time perusing all the great information available on this site: http://www.catcentric.org

Either way, you may want to spend some time reading links in the resource thread: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/240809/raw-feeding-resource-thread

I would also suggest starting to supplement with taurine immediately. Taurine is essential for our cats, but the pre-ground meat may cause this important amino acid to be degraded. I'd supplement with 250mg to 500mg daily.

You might also want to slowly introduce egg yolks (an important source of choline, omega 3s and vitamin D) and sardines (also omega 3s and vitamin D). These may cause problems for an IBD kitty. The key to everything with an IBD cat is go slow. Start with very small bits of anything new, and gradually increase. Any vomiting or diarrhea, and it means slow down.

Finally, you'll find in your reading that variety is important. This is because each meat - and each cut of meat - has a different nutritional profile. If you'll be using Dr. Pierson's ground recipe, she provides supplements to account for the lack of variety. But if you won't be providing much in the way of supplements, than variety of proteins becomes key.

FYI, there are supplements that make just meat complete (no organs needed). One is Wysong Call of the Wild http://www.wysong.net/products/cotw-dog-cat-supplement.php ; in Canada, the company TC Feline has a supplement that makes just meat complete: http://tcfeline.com/

If you're in the U.S. and located in the Midwest, South, or on the East Coast, there is a supplier of whole ground animal that makes feeding raw very easy (also a great source for organs and meats you may want to provide but have difficulty sourcing if feeding PMR). Just add the supplement Alnutrin (for meat/bones/organs) (also sold on the site) as per instructions. I still recommend feeding sardines (canned in water, no salt) as a treat, and/or providing salmon oil (for the vitamin D and the omegas). http://www.hare-today.com. Shipping is very reasonable. If you're in the U.S. Midwest, there's another company providing whole animal ground foods and a source of organs: http://www.mypetcarnivore.com

Obviously continue to ask questions, and we'd love it if you kept us posted on how Sebastian fares on the raw!

 

[jonereb]

Thanks for all the great info.  I'll definitely add ingredients, especially calcium and taurine.  Right now, my goal is get Sebastian off commercial cat food and go completely raw and see if this helps his chronic diarrhea.  Because he is an indoor/outdoor kitty, I'm supplementing his diet.  He is a very good hunter -- came home with a squirrel two days ago.  As I said, I've tried everything -- quarantined him indoors to better manage his diet, but I've never gone completely raw.  I'm sure I'll have to adjust as we go. 
 

 

[ritz]

LDG covers it all, I just have a few tips/ideas to add:

Taurine is very important, and HEARTS, like beef hearts and chicken hearts, have a lot.  Often in stores you can find one package that contains both chicken giblets and hearts--more giblets than hearts.

Check out the international supermarkets where you live, like Asian and Spanish.  These stores have a greater variety of organ meats--kidney and liver.  I've found pork heart in one close to me.  Another potential source of organs (secreting/non-secreting) and fun parts of animals (chicken head?  feet?) are farmer's markets.  The vendor may butcher his/her own animal and be able to provide you with organs you can't find any where else.  Or, just as important/interesting:  kidney, liver, hearts; grain-free fed and grass only feed.  Important if  your cat is very sensitive to stuff like that.

While you're reading all of the links and figuring out what works for you--and where you can buy what locally--you can try commercial raw.  It will have everything in it your feline needs.  Popular brands include Rad Cat, Nature's Variety, Primal and Bravo.  (With Bravo, check to make sure it's complete, Bravo also makes commercial raw you need to supplement.)  I started Ritz out on Primal, variety package (four proteins to a package).  The variety package gave me an idea what Ritz liked (everything) and what she didn't like (um, nothing).  RadCat is single source protein; this means the organs, liver and protein,bone-calcium come from the same animal.  For example, some cats can't handle chicken at all, so a commercial raw with lamb as the protein, turkey as the liver, and chicken kidney wouldn't work.  Just something to keep in mind.

Keep us posted how it is going.

 

[jonereb]

I've read that raw diets should be changed occasionally.  How often?  In my case, I started Sebastian on a raw chicken diet.  He liked it, but didn't love it. After one week, I decided to try a novelty Bison diet.  He has never had Bison.  It's ground meat pre-packaged at the grocery store (no hormones, etc.) -- I know, ground is a no-no.  But Sebastian loves it!  I'm adding a chicken liver, egg shell calcium and probiotics.  Also adding raw egg yolk and salmon oil occasionally.  Were just getting started.  Only been on bison for 5 or 6 days.  Since he spends a lot of time outdoors I have been unable to inspect his poops, but he is more playful and seems very content, so I am hopeful.

In addition, Sebastian had his annual shots today.  The vet found no parasites.  Everything checked out good.

My question is this -- assuming bison is successful, how long should I feed bison before switching?  Should I switch?
 

 

[ldg]

It's best to have at least 3 to 5 proteins in rotation. :nod:

Most people feed one raw protein for a few days to a week, and then use it as a base to slowly introduce a new protein, making the new protein 25% or less of the one you were feeding. Keep it that way for a few meals, then make it 50% if all went well, etc., until it is 100% the new food. Some cats can handle the switches quickly; others don't. I always went slowly. When I didn't, my cats would vomit or get diarrhea.

But once the proteins were introduced, you can switch them up however often you want. My cats eat 7 different proteins, and usually not the same one on the same day. Plenty of people follow this recipe (which, if you're using ground, I would recommend: then you know they're getting the correct nutrition. Just use the right amount of eggshell for calcium instead of the bones) http://www.catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood and feed nothing but those proteins. The supplements ensure the food provides what the kitties need.

 

[ritz]

I agree with LDG.  I would rotate among at least three--preferably five--proteins, a different protein every few days.  So your cat doesn't get bored or addicted to one kind of protein.

Ritz loves the ground bison/buffalo too!  It's the only ground raw I give her that I buy from the grocery store.  I have ordered ground Llama from Hare Today.  She loved that too.

 

[Willowy]

In addition, Sebastian had his annual shots today.  The vet found no parasites.  Everything checked out good. 

I don't want to nitpick, especially since this is unsolicited advice. . .but you might want to look into the health effects of overvaccinating. Annual vaccinations are utterly unnecessary (current AVMA recommendations are once every 3 years, and even that is probably too often), and overvaccinating is linked to many health problems, including IBD. I had a childhood cat whose IBD symptoms decreased dramatically when we stopped vaccinating her at age 10. Just a little something that might help!

 

[jonereb]

Good news.  Sebastian had his first normal poop in months.  He has been on a raw diet for two weeks.  The first week - ground turkey.  2nd week - ground bison.  He loves bison.  To each meal, I'm adding probiotics, powdered egg shell and chicken livers with some salmon oil every other day.  Next, I'll add lamb to the rotation.  He seems to like red meat better than white meat. 

For a year, he ate canned Instinct Lamb & Instinct Rabbit with only rare successes.  At this point should I assume there is something in the canned Instinct that is upsetting his system?  BTW, I added probiotics to his canned food too.  No help until I switched entirely to raw. 

I am cautious in reporting this because I know his system can change on a dime, but right now, I'm optimistic.

This comes two days after his vaccination, which we must keep up to date for kenneling reasons.  We go out of town once or twice a year for a week or so.

 

[ldg]

That's great!

If you're going to continue using ground food, again, I REALLY recommend you follow the recipe at http://www.catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood (just use whatever proteins you want, but stick to the same proportions of liver to meat; use alll the supplements as directed, and then use the correct amount of eggshell powder instead of bone) to ensure your kitty is getting all the nutrients he needs. :nod:

Right now the diet you're feeding him is deficient in at least vitamin D, choline, probably vitamin E, and potentially taurine. Taurine, when using ground, or if you're not feeding hearts, really needs to be supplemented.

 

[jonereb]

LDG,

Sebastian is an indoor/outdoor kitty.  He eats mice regularly and birds occasionally.  I'm supplementing his diet with raw.  As we go forward, I'll probably purchase premixed vitamins from the site mentioned in the article you linked, especially during the winter.  I already have the supplement site bookmarked.  My goal was to find out if raw would make a difference.

 

[ldg]

Ah! Well, so glad the raw is helping his stool! Sounds like IBD was the problem, and the raw is helping. :heart2: