Food rotation - advice to newbie

[jessv]

Hello all,

After a 2 month stool nightmare on Ziwipeak, everything changed with the introduction to Primal rabbit. While he was still on both foods during the transition, I could tell which stool was Primal and which was Ziwipeak. For a few days, our cat was on Primal rabbit alone and his feces were perfect. But... he wasn't fond of the food; I had to hand feed him almost each meal (5 times a day to avoid bile) since the beginning and he never did that before. I wanted to make sure he eats when I'm not there and the hand feeding could not become a thing, he couldn't keep losing weight. Reading online, I realized people were feeding different kind of food the same day. Therefore, I introduced a bit a Rad Cat turkey which he loved! It also helped with the rabbit somehow, he started to eat it by himself with more gusto. That's when I likely did the mistake to go too fast. He got 1oz one day, he was fine, got 1oz twice (had rabbit in between) the second day, still fine, same thing the next day. Then I wasn't sure it'd be good to keep switching food serveral times during the same day and thought that I could create a routine with rabbit until noon, turkey in the evening. The next day (yesterday) he had softer stool. He went 3 times in the past 24 hours. Bummer... So I'm back to rabbit and pumpkin, hopefully it will get back to normal soon and he'll still like the rabbit without the help of the Rad Cat.

To any of you rotating, especially those with sensitive GI tract cats, how did you start the process? Did you slowly transitioned each time you introduced a new food? But then, how did you get to feed different food on a same day? Okay, so maybe I can't go there with our dude, especially at first but what would be a good routine? Maybe I should keep him on the same food for a month? I'm sure he wouldn't have any problem with the Rad Cat (except he ate it so fast that he kept asking for more), I'm not so sure with the Primal, though. 

Also, do you have to transition slowly each rotation cycle or just the very first time (once your cat has been one a food for some time, you can go back to it with no problem)?

And finally, are chicken, turkey, cornish hen, duck considered as a variety to avoid allergies? I'd rather stick to those along with rabbit that are more natural preys. Lamb, beef, venison are not and are quite fat, not to mention that I still don't know why he didn't do good on the Ziwipeak venison. 

Thank you,

Jessica

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Are you wanting to feed only raw?  You didn't post this in the Raw Forum, yet some of the food listed are raw (Rad Cat, Primal), so that's got me a little confused. 

If raw, let us know and we'll get this moved over to the Raw Forum to get the expert's on that topic involved

.

 

[jessv]

Hi mrsgreenjeens,

Right now I am thinking of sticking to raw but I was considering to include Tiki Cat Puka Puka Luau in the rotation at some point. I am new to the forum so I thought that food rotation would fall into the nutrition category. f you think I might get some advice on the raw forum, please, feel free to move my post over. Thank you!

 

[haycat]

Hi JessV! 

Since my cat doesn't have a sensitive system, I hope someone with the same problem as yours will chime in!

To any of you rotating, especially those with sensitive GI tract cats, how did you start the process? Did you slowly transitioned each time you introduced a new food?

I started rotating canned food as many times as possible as soon as I got him, so he could get used to many tastes and avoid allergy. I was also afraid of recalls.

The only food that caused his loose stool was raw lamb. After a few lamb meals, however, the rich meat no longer caused the loose stool even if I gave him lamb without any gradual introduction.

I think cats' system gets used to new meat over time, though it may take very long sometimes. If your cat gets used to one protein, your cat may not have any problems even if you give the protein along with other meat on a same day. Your cat's body would remember handling the protein.

But again, we are talking about cats with a very sensitive GI tract! Sorry I can't be of much help 

 All the cats I've personally known had hardy tummies for some reason... at times I was kind of envious of them 

And finally, are chicken, turkey, cornish hen, duck considered as a variety to avoid allergies?

Depending on the formula duck can be quite fatty. Other than that cats can easily handle these meats. Rabbit is also good to keep if your cat takes a shine to it!

 

[jessv]

Hi Haycat!  

Your experience with raw lamb is very interesting. I am hoping it will be the same for us with RadCat turkey. I can see the difference in his stools: dry to chalky stool = Primal rabbit; darker less crumbly to actually partly soft stool = RadCat turkey and that is with 0.5 oz once or twice a day! He has vomited some bile or stomach acid with pieces of bones from the Primal rabbit (of course, it started just after I ordered 4 bags at my local pet store!) so I would like to feed him less rabbit or at least rotate more so it's not his primary food. He LOVES the RadCat, I really really hope his GI system will follow at some point.

Before leaving for South America, he was fed Natural Balance kibbles (I know...) and at dinner, had some canned food (I rotated between Natural Balance's flavors) or a few pieces of raw chicken breast.  That was in 2009-2011, I was told then that it wasn't good to change food because cats are sensitive to change (I know...). He had no problem at the time. 

How did you pursue with the lamb? Did you slowly increase the quantity even though your kitty has softer stool? What is your rotation cycle? Do you feed several types of food a day or one type for a certain amount of time?

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Just to pipe in here regarding the four bags of Primal...can't you return some of them?  I know HERE, I was even able to return partially used bags of frozen Primal, for any reason

.  When I first started feeding it, I told the folks at the store that my cats were so darned picky I wasn't sure if they would eat it or not, and they told me if they didn't like it, I could bring it back.  So...sadly I took back several different bags of different foods.  But, then again, I never bought more than one of the same type at a time. Of course, there was a time period involved during which I could return it. 

 

[mrs abid]

What is primal?

 

[LTS3]

What is primal?

Primal is a brand of raw pet food: http://www.primalpetfoods.com/

 

[haycat]

 
He has vomited some bile or stomach acid with pieces of bones from the Primal rabbit (of course, it started just after I ordered 4 bags at my local pet store!) so I would like to feed him less rabbit or at least rotate more so it's not his primary food. He LOVES the RadCat, I really really hope his GI system will follow at some point.

Do you continue probiotics and digestive enzymes? If the bone came out undigested after a while, your cat may need more digestive enzymes and these supplements might help. Raw bone fragments are usually digested fairly quickly.

How did you pursue with the lamb? Did you slowly increase the quantity even though your kitty has softer stool?

I give my cat meat, meaty bones and organs in a ratio often used in raw feeding. My cat passes stool less often after he has a meaty bone. So I figured lamb may help soften his stool after he ate a meaty bone.

1st lamb

My cat ate lamb alone and had loose stool.

2nd lamb

I diced lamb and mixed it with some lung meat. The stool was partially crumbly and partially soft, just like you often describe your cat's stool.

3rd lamb

I cut up lamb into small pieces again and mixed with some heart pieces. The stool was normal.

I mixed lamb with other kinds of meat to avoid diarrhea just in case. It's also because my cat liked lamb too much. After eating his first lamb, he didn't want to eat other foods anymore. 

 So I didn't give lamb alone for a while. When I fed lamb alone next time, it no longer caused loose stool.

 
What is your rotation cycle? Do you feed several types of food a day or one type for a certain amount of time?

When we used canned food, I fed many brands. Ziwipeak was one of them, which I completely quit only recently. I tried to include many flavors so he could have variety.

I switched his canned food cold turkey, one can after another. But I'd have introduced a new brand more slowly if my cat had a sensitive system.

Now I've switched to 100% raw. Since I feed frankenprey, I give a few kinds of meat, meaty bones, and organs a day. In addition to that, sometimes eggs, and very rarely fish. So I use more than a few types of food a day.

Hope this could be of some help! 

 

 

[jessv]

Hi Haycat! 

I am so sorry for the delay, I had 2 threads going on at the same time and wrongly thought I had answered to your post... 

 Do you continue probiotics and digestive enzymes? If the bone came out undigested after a while, your cat may need more digestive enzymes and these supplements might help. Raw bone fragments are usually digested fairly quickly.

Yes, I do feed him the probiotics and digestive enzymes. I am not sure they are the best though, as it is a mix (NaturVet), and there very little probiotics in it. I think next time, I will buy them separately to get the best of both worlds. Thanks to the SEB (I assume), the vomiting of stomach acid has slowed down; the last time, just a tiny bit of foam and fur came up (an improvement in itself) and there was no bone fragment. Yay!

Thank you so much for all the explanations about how you have fed your kitty to me. The good news is that he has now normal stools on RC turkey. You can tell the difference between both foods though, the rabbit is lighter in color, much dryer and chalky, while the turkey is darker and not chalky. I now feed him 4 times a day, both meats (rabbit/turkey/rabbit/turkey), with a couple treats (Purebites) a hour or so before feedings, he seems happy with the variety (although I'm sure I could feed him turkey only, it's his favorite), his GI system seems happy too. I will keep him on this diet for a while, and will keep focusing on the stomach acid, maybe changing the pattern at some point (one type of meat a day, or several days, both on the same day, etc.) and eventually will slowly introduce a new protein source. 

It's really interesting that you, along with other cat parents, feed several meats a day. In the wild, that's what would mostly happen, small cats would hunt a mouse, then a bird, then a rabbit. But I'm actually surprised to read holistic vets' advice online regarding the rotation cycle: they actually prefer to "quit" a protein source for a while before coming back to it. I usually read that the recommended cycle for a protein source is 3 months or 1 month. 

Anyways, thank you so much again for your kindness and I apologize for not saying it sooner!

 

[haycat]

Hi JessV! 

 Thought you were too busy to come! Glad to hear your cat is getting better!

Yes, I do feed him the probiotics and digestive enzymes. I am not sure they are the best though, as it is a mix (NaturVet), and there very little probiotics in it. I think next time, I will buy them separately to get the best of both worlds.

Hope all goes well when you switch the supplements too!

It's really interesting that you, along with other cat parents, feed several meats a day. In the wild, that's what would mostly happen, small cats would hunt a mouse, then a bird, then a rabbit.

Yes, I try to feed my cat as naturally as possible! 

 Though sometimes supplements are necessary.

Commercial cat foods made of multiple protein sources may have more variety in ingredient in one can than homemade recipes. I just split the necessary ingredients and give each one separately, or mix only a few together, to ensure freshness.

But I'm actually surprised to read holistic vets' advice online regarding the rotation cycle: they actually prefer to "quit" a protein source for a while before coming back to it. I usually read that the recommended cycle for a protein source is 3 months or 1 month. 

I too read if you rotate within a few months, the meat probably wouldn't give your cat (or dog) allergy. I think it may be better to rotate this way when we don't have much variety and the cat is genetically or environmentally predisposed to allergy. This way we can avoid feeding chicken every morning and then beef every night for the rest of the year.

But if we use only one protein source for a few months, we usually need more supplements to balance the diet. As I prefer to include as many nutrients as possible in the real food, I chose to include multiple meat sources in daily food. It's also because my cat has neither allergy nor sensitivity to food. When you have cats with sensitive system or allergy, the diet plan would be different.

Hope your cat does well! And congrats on his normal stool! 

 

 

[jessv]

I am so so sorry mrsgreenjeens, mrs abid, LTS3 for not answering your question, I didn't see your posts. My mailer told me about Haycat's so I answered to hers only. 

mrsgreenjeens, yes, my local Pet Food Express allows me to bring back any food, open or sealed. I don't want to abuse this awesome service so I will order 4 bags (because you get the 4th free) only once I know Ishi loves the food. Especially because they can't donate raw products since they don't know how their customers handled them so they just throw the food away, which I feel so guilty about. 

Thanks LTS3 for answering the answer about Primal.

Haycat, I have been busy indeed. I'm leaving tomorrow for a week, after a year without any vacation, so I'm a little bit stressed to leave the Dude alone again, especially because I'm not out of the woods yet. Now that he's eating half rabbit, half turkey over the day, his stools are softer inside again. Nothing like the Ziwipeak stool, it's harder on the outside (so far), doesn't stink except when I crush it and he still has a daily bowel movement or every 2 days so I'm hoping it's just another adjustment issue. But I have to consider eliminating poultry again but for a longer period of time if that doesn't improve. So do I have to transition slowly when I change the probiotics/enzymes? Do you have recommendations ?

And the vomiting of acid stomach is not going away.  

  mrsgreenjeens, I will go back to the other thread about that.

I was so looking forward to this trip, but I know I'll be tense and the husband is getting tired of my constant worrying for the cat the past few months. He loves him, but he's a guy...

 

[haycat]

Now that he's eating half rabbit, half turkey over the day, his stools are softer inside again. Nothing like the Ziwipeak stool, it's harder on the outside (so far), doesn't stink except when I crush it and he still has a daily bowel movement or every 2 days so I'm hoping it's just another adjustment issue. But I have to consider eliminating poultry again but for a longer period of time if that doesn't improve.

Hope the stool gets better! In addition to RC turkey being made of poultry, they use powdered eggshell as a calcium source instead of bones. Bones are said to be harder to be utilized, so as a result the stool becomes more chalky from the residue. RC doesn't help firm up your cat's stool this way either.

Have you tried offering some raw turkey alone? If raw turkey doesn't cause digestive upset, Ishi may be intolerant of some other ingredient in RC.

So do I have to transition slowly when I change the probiotics/enzymes? Do you have recommendations ?

I'm not familiar with probiotics/enzymes for cats, (maybe I should try when my cat is older...) but I've heard some products can cause digestive upset. There are mixed reviews though. Also, I often had nasty diarrhea after I had a product intended for human 

 though this isn't about cats.

The change in the gut flora can sometimes upset the system at the beginning, so it doesn't necessarily mean the product is harmful. If the new products turn out to cause digestive upset, you may want to transition slowly.

I was so looking forward to this trip, but I know I'll be tense and the husband is getting tired of my constant worrying for the cat the past few months. He loves him, but he's a guy...

I understand how you feel about your cat while you are away. I was veeeerry worried about my cat while I was away for a few days. He ran away when I came home  

 But he realized it was me within a few minutes.

Wonder if I could ever go on a one-week trip myself! I'd love to take my cat with me, but being outside his territory can tremendously disturb  his peace of mind, him being a cat...

Anyway, have a nice vacation!