Food Journey

[ravencorbie]

Well, she's not yet a year old, but compared to the kittens my parents got a few years ago, she's pretty laid back.  She sleeps a lot on my green chair.  She does get pretty excited, usually right after eating and plays for about 5 minutes or so before going back to sleep.  Occasionally (not as often as I should), I play with the da Bird with her for around 15 minutes.  I don't know for sure what she does when I'm gone during the day.  So, she's a kitten, technically (Until October), but with a lower activity level.  I have no idea what her metabolism is, though.  Still, I think increasing the amount makes sense, as long as it doesn't affect her weight too much.

Tomorrow, I'm going to be gone from 6:45 to sometime around 7 or 8 at night, so I think I have to actually give her kibble.  I have some Natural Choice duck that is grain free (obviously not carb free) that hopefully won't be a disaster.  I checked the ingredient list and although it's not great, it at least avoids some of the more problematic ingredients (no "by product meal" or "animal fat", for example).

What about the fish in the chicken/salmon?  Is it too much, still, even only one meal every other day?
 

Thanks for continuing to respond to all my ramblings!  It's really helpful.

 

[ldg]

Will you be including other proteins at some point? Because I don't think it's too much salmon the way you've planned it, if not fed indefinitely that way.

For long days away, you can consider putting out a frozen nugget for her to eat when it dethaws.

And I didn't remember she was still a kitten! She SHOULD be growing and putting on weight! So yeah, I'd definitely bump up the amount fed to her. :nod: The rule of thumb for kittens is to feed them as much as they want to eat. I realize she's a few months away from no longer being technically a kitten, but she's definitely still in her growth stage. :nod:

Just bear in mind that I have 2 not-overly-active cats that are little: one is 9 years and 8 pounds; one is 10 years and 7 pounds. The first (Ming Loy) gets 3 meals a day of 7/8 of an ounce; the other (Flowerbelle) gets 3 ounces - often a little more, as she eats while I prep everyone else's food. She often finishes, and I feed her a few more bites of stuff as I cut up the food for the other kitties (yes, the smaller kitty eats more).

So I wouldn't be surprised if she eats 3 ounces or more a day - depending on how big her frame becomes as she matures. Some really don't completely finish growing until up to 18 months (and some mature more quickly).

 

[ravencorbie]

Yes, I do plan on including other proteins sometime in the future, probably around next summer when I have time for research again.  Maybe sooner, but that's the earliest guarantee.  I'm also thinking of doing mail order online, since I'd like to try other brands and other proteins (I already know, for example, that she likes the Primal pheasant, and they don't sell that at the local store).  I'd like to get as much as possible at the local store, though, because they're good people.

Okay -- I'll definitely up her food.

And that's a good point about leaving out a frozen one.  I've been pretty bad about leaving her dishes out, so I'm not really concerned about that anymore.  I figure her saliva takes care of most of it.

Edit:  Okay, now I'm not sure about the frozen one.  She was still hungry, so I gave her some wet food.  And then, she was still hungry, so I gave her the rest of the can AND a frozen one.  Somehow, she managed to eat some of the wet food and ALL of the frozen nugget.  There's still some wet food left in her dish.  Then she was convulsively trying to cover it up (the same as she does in her litter box, but with the food).  Not sure how she managed or WANTED to eat the frozen nugget.

 

[ravencorbie]

My cat is strange!  She eats the frozen nuggets, even if they're not defrosted yet.  Yesterday, my long day away, I gave her a whole 3 oz. can of a good wet food PLUS a frozen nugget, and she ate them all right away, so had no food left.  I ended up capitulating and giving her some dry food along with lots of new, fresh water.  I hate when I see her drinking a lot of water because I know it means she's nearing dehydration.  Anyway, I didn't know what else to do, since I didn't want her gorging herself first thing in the morning, and I had no idea how many frozen nuggets to keep her satisfied the whole time I was gone.  Thankfully, she ONLY eats dry food when she's hungry, so I didn't have to worry about her eating too much of that, and I knew I could store away whatever she didn't eat.

Anyway, I mainly wanted to write down the changes I've noticed so far on the mostly raw diet:

Energy:  As soon as she's done eating raw food, she has extreme levels of energy.  It doesn't last long, but it's still exciting to watch.

Poop:  She's not 100% yet (getting there, as of today), so I don't have the dry white dusty poop yet, but her stools are dark and very small and hard.  When she was on all canned food, her stools were fairly soft and large.  So, this is a nice benefit.

I haven't noticed a change in her coat due to raw, but she had a HUGE improvement when I got her off the dry food.

I also love my local health pet food store:  when I came in, they remembered I had a cat.  The freezers with raw food are around to the right and at the front of the store after passing through the dog section, while the main cat section is straight ahead.  When I turned, they wanted to correct me because they thought I wanted cat stuff, but when I explained I was getting raw food, they were really excited.  They told me that their cats won't eat it yet.
 

 

[maple syrup]

Fish oil will help for the shiny coat with minimal shedding.

 

[maple syrup]

My little guy will eat it partially frozen as well. 

 

[ravencorbie]

Well, I've also been giving her sardines . . . not as much this last week, but starting around the time I started with raw.  I'm not worried at all about her coat:  it's beautiful and luxurious . . . but I noticed the change when she switched from dry to wet, and if there have been further changes with raw, they've been minimal.  But there was such a HUGE difference with the first change, that it's possible I just haven't noticed any additional changes.  When I got her, her fur was long (she's a medium haired cat), but very thin.  You could feel more of her skin than fur.  Now, she's all fur, and it's very lush.  At the shelter, she was getting both dry and canned food, but her coat really changed when she went to all canned.  I wasn't really thinking about the shedding, so it's possible she's been shedding less since I started the sardines.  I really only notice shedding when she's shedding a LOT, usually when she's going to the vet or stressed out for some other reason.

In new news, I've learned she needs at least 6 portions a day, so instead of giving her one nugget in the morning, one when I get home, and one before bed, I'm going to increase that to two.  I'll keep the same schedule for the chicken/salmon and turkey.  I'm going to call the store and see if they would be able to order the pheasant.  As I gradually get rid of MY stuff in the freezer (by eating it), I might be able to have three kinds, assuming I can get it.  I'd also like to try the quail.  AND I am going to look into delivery options, because I'd like to include other brands.

Next summer, and maybe sooner, I'm really going to delve more into prey model raw, so I want to make sure she's still relatively able to change from one food to another.  When I got her and stopped feeding dry, I gave her a different food every time I opened a can -- it might have been the same brand but a different flavor, or a similar flavor but a different brand, but I think that's one of the reasons she's been able to adapt to so many different foods.  I don't want that to go away now that I'm on raw.  Giving her "snacks" of food I'm about to cook is hopefully helping with that as well.  I think I'll always keep the Primal in the rotation, though, because I want to continue to support this local store.

 

[ravencorbie]

Small victory!

I made lamb vindaloo tonight, and my cat was going crazy while I was cooking, since I've given her bits of raw before.  I decided to go ahead and try it, preparing myself to clean up some vomit.  She just looked at it at first and came into the kitchen, so I put some of the Stella & Chewy's freeze dried on it.

She ate it all and did not throw up!   

 

 

[vball91]

That's great! If she really likes the bits of fresh meat, you could just get a premix supplement that makes meat balanced and complete. It makes frankenprey so easy. Just meat with a sprinkle of supplement on top. I like Wysong Call of the Wild, but there are others as well. That way you can add other proteins sooner, and if you just give her what you're planning on cooking for yourself, you won't need extra freezer space.

 

[ravencorbie]

That's a great idea!  I've seen it mentioned elsewhere, but it didn't really sink in.  It would make it easier to add in other proteins.

Thanks!
 

 

[ldg]

I think the CoTW is more expensive than some. But I use it for all of Lazlo's meals, as he doesn't like organs, and he LOVES the stuff!

 

[ravencorbie]

I'm going to get the COTW when I have more money.  Right now, I'm not buying anything other than necessities (i.e. food, gas, toilet paper, etc.).  I want to get those little measuring spoons, too.  I already have a kitchen scale, so I don't need one of those.

I made another discovery the other day, and it's happened twice now, so I'm thinking it's working.  In the past, if I've given raw meat pieces as a treat to my cat and if she's then ignored it and come back to me, I have put the Stella & Chewy's topper on.  But twice now, I've been able to go back to the bowl, point at it and sit near it.  The first time, she started eating it while I was sitting there.  The second time, I had to get up and start cooking again, but when I turned back to look at her she was eating.  Both times, she finished the portions, so it seems like I might not need the topper anymore, except in extreme cases.
 

 

[ldg]

Well, it seems you may not need to, but several of us have had great success with the "fake topper." :lol3: I pick up the bowl, PRETEND like I'm sprinkling something on it or adding something to it, put it down, and they dig in.

 

[ravencorbie]

So weird! I'll try that -- sounds faster than the sit, point, and watch method.

 

[ravencorbie]

Well, I ordered Call of the Wild for meat only, but since then, I've procured some chicken livers. I can't find the other secreting organs, though. Is there a supplement for meat and liver (no bone and no secreting organ)? Or should I just occasionally add some liver in without expecting it to be the LIVER in a PMR diet? I don't think I can do an online order due to minimum order requirements and the size of my freezer (10 lbs. from Hare Today will NOT fit, for example). I'm still watching Craig's List, but so far, no luck there.

Laurie, I'm also thinking of looking at your homemade supplement and adding in what I need, but I'm not sure what the non-liver secreting organ actually provides, so I'm not sure what I'd need, aside from eggshell or human-grade bone meal. And I do feed sardines and egg yolks, so that's not an issue.

 

[ldg]

Flowerbelle doesn't eat kidney. I give her meat and make liver her other 5% secreting organ. :lol3: So basically she gets meat, eggshell supplement, 10% liver, egg yolk, sardine, and the homemade supplement.

But there is an easy solution! Alnutrin makes a supplement for meat and liver! You can buy it with calcium from limestone, or with eggshell. http://www.knowwhatyoufeed.com/alnutrin_with_calcium.html

I don't know how much volume it would take to balance per meal. I've only ever used the Alnutrin without calcium. But the bag will come with a scoop, and it'll have instructions on how much to use per pounds of meat. All you have to do is figure out how many teaspoons is in the scoop, then divide it by the number of ounces of meat it's meant to balance.

Here's how I did it for the Alnutrin without calcium or eggshell, just as an example:

32g balances 8 pounds of meat/bone/organ mix as per instructions on package.

32g divided by 8 pounds of food is 4g of Alnutrin per pound.

4g was one scoop (provided in the bag).
I dumped out the scoop, and measured its volume. It was 1.25 teaspoons.

So at 16 ounces per pound, 1.25 teaspoons divided by 16 ounces, is 0.078125 teaspoons per ounce. In excel, I just formatted that to be a two-digit fraction, and that is 5/64 teaspoons.

With the Norpro mini measuring spoons, that's an easy amount to measure out.

The Alnutrin costs a lot less to use than the CoTW. But it's nice to rotate supplements, I think - and then you have an option where you can use the fresh liver. :nod:

 

[ravencorbie]

Wonderful! I did order the Alnutrin with Eggshell Calcium, but you make a good point about the liver. I may try that, too. I was also able to get some chicken gizzards and hearts, which I'm hoping will help with the teeth. I forgot to get the small measuring spoons, though -- and I just did an Amazon order for my mom's birthday. Oh well, I imagine I might end up doing a lot by weight anyway, and I have some little tiny cups that I can put small amounts of powder in. So, it might be easier just to stick with grams, rather than figuring out the teaspoon amount . . . at least until I get those little spoons.

 

[ravencorbie]

We're having a slight set-back, but I think it's either 1) a variety issue, or 2) a good sign that she's preferring chunks of meat to ground. (remembering how that happened for Laurie)

The last couple of days, while she's eaten the raw I've put out for her, it's taken her a lot longer, and she only eats a little before turning away. Then nibbles a little more later, and so on. The Call of the Wild hasn't arrived yet, but the Alnutrin has. My chicken livers are all completely frozen, but I think I'm going to put them in the refrigerator today and I suspect they will still be MOSTLY frozen, but not stuck together, by the time I get home. I'll have to figure out how much to feed her, which I can do with the calculator from CatCentric (I think). I hope it doesn't take too long because I have a LOT to do today (besides school work, bills, etc.). This morning, I gave her some canned Weruva, and she ate that quickly.

The biggest issue I have is the variety issue, due to the lack of space in my freezer. I found rabbit and pheasant at the local meat store, but they were just too expensive, especially if they're going to be in constant rotation. Right now, I have turkey breasts, chicken breasts, chicken hearts and gizzards, and chicken livers. Lots of chicken. I can find pork and beef easily, but she throws up or doesn't eat the beef. Is cornish game hen different enough to be a different protein? Obviously, everything except possibly pork is fowl, which is probably another issue with variety. I could try feeding her more lamb (she ate it once without throwing up, but another time she had it, she threw up), but that's expensive, too.

 

[maple syrup]

For the chicken livers, if you have a cleaver, you can probably break it up without thawing.