Five Months Into Intro

[Mickpest]

Hello and good morning all,
We are now five months in to the introduction of Mickey to Pesto, our resident cat, and it has been a roller-coaster ride. I am looking for any kind of advice or encouragement because I am not really sure where we are now!

After 2 1/2 months of slow intro, we have had Mickey out with Pesto 24/7 since the end of May with a mix of continued chasing of Pesto by Mickey. the chases have dropped a bit in frequency, but intensity can still be concerning:
1. He chases Pesto up into his tree almost every morning, keeping Pesto from his food. (Mickey doesn't want the food, he just wants to chase Pesto up the tree to keep him away from us)
2. We can't pet Pesto without Mickey turning on Pesto and chasing/biting him.

3. When we try to play with Mickey to give Pesto time off, Pesto wants to see whats going on, comes over, and eventually a chase again ensues.

Off and on we have seen encouraging signs; mutual grooming, playing with no attacking, etc.. but that has completely stopped over the last couple of weeks.

Background: Both are neutered males. Pesto (resident) is 9 years old and Mickey is 1 year old.

I have tried to get Mickey harness trained to provide more of an outlet for his energy, but now he has firmly decided he has no interest in going outside!

Mickey has also become very attached to me, less so to my husband who is gone for most of the day. My husband is increasingly upset for Pesto as he feels this is more Pesto's home and he is getting the shaft here. I feel if Mickey doesn't start being nicer to Pesto, Mickey may have to go.

Mickey is still on Amytriptiline for his behavior/anxiety, now in a compounded formula applied to ears.

Any thoughts, suggestions, insight would be greatly appreciated!

Connie

 

[calicosrspecial]

Hi Connie,

I am sorry to hear this.

How does Pesto act after being chased? Does he hide? Stay away? Avoid areas? Walk more cautiously?

Is there any way you can distract Mickey from chasing Pesto?

Do any of the chases result in any altercations? Any blows with claws out landed? Any bites?

How much are you playing with Mickey? It could be that Mickey finds chasing Pesto more fun. We want to get Mickey to find toys more fun than Pesto. We also want to get Pesto to not act like prey (by running away) and we want him to be more confident and "stand up" to Mickey. To act less like prey (if that is how he is acting).

I have some ideas, I would like to get the answers to the above questions and then I will have some suggestions that should help.

Hang in there, this is pretty common. We'll figure it out. The fact they do groom each other and playing together without attacks tells me they will get along.

 

[Mickpest]

Hi Connie,

I am sorry to hear this.

How does Pesto act after being chased? Does he hide? Stay away? Avoid areas? Walk more cautiously?

Is there any way you can distract Mickey from chasing Pesto?

Do any of the chases result in any altercations? Any blows with claws out landed? Any bites?

How much are you playing with Mickey? It could be that Mickey finds chasing Pesto more fun. We want to get Mickey to find toys more fun than Pesto. We also want to get Pesto to not act like prey (by running away) and we want him to be more confident and "stand up" to Mickey. To act less like prey (if that is how he is acting).

I have some ideas, I would like to get the answers to the above questions and then I will have some suggestions that should help.

Hang in there, this is pretty common. We'll figure it out. The fact they do groom each other and playing together without attacks tells me they will get along.

Thank you for your response!
I will try to answer all line by line the best I can:
1. As this has been an evolving and continuing issue since we brought Mickey home, I would say it's a bit of a mixed bag as to how Pesto acts when being chased. Originally, he would just take off and hide under the bed. Then over time he would hiss and growl more, but still get chased. Then he would stand his ground and not move, with Mickey latched onto his back, yowling and growling with Mickey biting him, and eventually run (when he could get away!) leaving Mickey with a mouth full of fur. Depending on how bad he took it, he has hidden; stayed up in his tree most of the day; snuck around hugging the walls; or just as often, he will just stroll back to the area like nothing happened.

2. I don't think blood has ever been drawn, though oftentimes it sounds like it should have been! Mickey does have what looks to be a bit of a healed scratch on the side of his nose, but never saw any blood or fresh wound. He exhibits what I call "dawn and dusk" behavior, and will chase Pesto up in to his tree every day, morning and night, which almost always ends in the paw batting of each other, Mickey on perch below, with Pesto growling hissing, etc.. till we call Mickey off, which for the most part he does, grudgingly. Once in a while he will leap up on top of Pesto in the tree.

3. We used to to spend a lot of time playing with him (3 -20 to 30 minute sessions a day minimum),to try and diffuse things, but we found that they did worse together when we did. It would ramp Mickey up, no matter how long we played with him and the play would almost always go back to chasing Pesto. We have tons of interactive, and wand type, robot fish, secret boxes, kick toys, etc.. for him to play with, but he just gets to this place where he can't stop fixating on Pesto. He seems to have huge jealousy issues as well and hates pesto around wherever we are.
I did discover that when we left the house they "seemed" to do better, which was actually accurate, but not always the case. We have found that he will chase Pesto or "jump" Pesto whether we are there or not, maybe just not as often.
Something else that has started recently is Mickey waits around a wall corner for Pesto to finish using the cat box, then will jump him when he leaves the room. He was also jumping Pesto when he was trying to use the box! We now have three cat boxes at the advice of the behaviorist which I guess has done some good, but hard to say.

I think I do see marginal improvement over time, but it is slow with lots of backsliding. My husband, because of his work schedule, doesn't' see anything but Pesto getting picked on and not being able to interact with us at all without Mickey jumping him, so his patience is running out with Mickey.
Any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated!

 

[calicosrspecial]

Thank you for the answers.

Would you say that Mickey is playing with Pesto? Or wanting to?

Are you able to distract Mickey at all? With play or food?

I would really like to see Mickey choose a toy to play with rather than Pesto. This would help Pesto build more confidence.

I would like to work on a few things.

First, are they eating together? I would like to get them eating near each other. To associate each other with good things. It could be a meal if possible or even snacks. As long as they are focused on the food and behaving with each other. Any time they are together without an incident it is a positive.

I would like to step up play with at least Pesto especially in areas where he is being chased. I want him to be more confident, to walk around confidently. A confident cat is less likely to attack or be attacked. So really good play sessions (ideally with Mickey somewhere else being occupied with play or something but not locked away). Then feed either treats or a meal after playing. Also, do you have cat trees around the house? If you have them by some windows and can do it safely (so they don't tip not the window etc) the they can look out of the window. Also, scratching posts around so they can gt their scent on things and "own" more territory. Same with comfy bedding. The more options to just hang out and feel comfortable and focus on other things (like the outside animals) the more of a break Pesto will get. Also, we need to be as calm and confident around the cats as possible. Cats can take on our emotions so the more stressed or upset we are the more they can be and act out. Do the incidences happen more when your husband is around? I would love to see your husband feeding Mickey. Mickey may sense a negative feeling and it could be causing some anxiety. It is tricky to talk to a spouse about this so let's gently try to achieve more positive feelings.

I think we really need to distract Mickey when he is focused on Pesto. Distract with whatever works. Play, food. Anything to show him that the alternative is more interesting than Pesto. As Pesto gets more confident the chases should subside or become more fun for both of them.

I really want to suggest stepping up play with Mickey. If Pesto is in another room and out of sight do you think Mickey would look for Pesto? Then if so, would it be possible to distract Mickey? Play builds confidence and it does tire out cats to some degree. If we offer an alternative that is more fun than chasing a more confident cat then it should help calm things down. Always after a good play session feed either treats or a meal. It replicates the Hunt, Capture, Kill, Eat instinct.

It sounds like a kitten wanting to play and playing a bit too rough. So I think we can handle this.

Our goals really are to associate the cats with good things (food), to build confidence and to try to make every encounter as positive as possible (distracting with food or play to avoid a negative chase etc).

Don't worry, we should be able to work through this. Mickey is a kitten and a 2 1/2 month intro is not long so it may have been a touch rushed but we can work through this.

Please feel free to ask any questions any time. I am happy to help.

 

[Mickpest]

Thank you for the answers.

Would you say that Mickey is playing with Pesto? Or wanting to? At times this seems accurate. Others it seems to ramp up into aggression.

Are you able to distract Mickey at all? With play or food? Sometimes with play. Rarely if ever with food.

I would really like to see Mickey choose a toy to play with rather than Pesto. This would help Pesto build more confidence. We would too!

I would like to work on a few things.

First, are they eating together? I would like to get them eating near each other. To associate each other with good things. It could be a meal if possible or even snacks. As long as they are focused on the food and behaving with each other. Any time they are together without an incident it is a positive. They eat in the same room divided by a kitchen island. This was suggested by the behaviorist. Food aggression is the one thing they don't seem to have however. They routinely eat out of each others bowls with no repercussions and have even been seen eating side by side.

I would like to step up play with at least Pesto especially in areas where he is being chased. I want him to be more confident, to walk around confidently. A confident cat is less likely to attack or be attacked. So really good play sessions (ideally with Mickey somewhere else being occupied with play or something but not locked away). Then feed either treats or a meal after playing. We haven't tried this separately to where they can't access each other, so worth a shot. Also, do you have cat trees around the house? Yes, three. If you have them by some windows (yes) and can do it safely (so they don't tip not the window etc) the they can look out of the window. Also, scratching posts around so they can gt their scent on things and "own" more territory. (yes) Same with comfy bedding. (yes)The more options to just hang out and feel comfortable and focus on other things (like the outside animals) the more of a break Pesto will get. Also, we need to be as calm and confident around the cats as possible. My husband is Italian! Cats can take on our emotions so the more stressed or upset we are the more they can be and act out. Do the incidences happen more when your husband is around? Yep! I would love to see your husband feeding Mickey. He feeds both cats in the morning before I come down. Mickey may sense a negative feeling and it could be causing some anxiety. It is tricky to talk to a spouse about this so let's gently try to achieve more positive feelings. It's tough. They have had some tension, and my husband approaches Mickey with some suspicion because Mickey has play-bitten him before and acts awkward because of this. Even though Mickey no longer really does this, it doesn't matter.

I think we really need to distract Mickey when he is focused on Pesto. Distract with whatever works. Play, food. Anything to show him that the alternative is more interesting than Pesto. As Pesto gets more confident the chases should subside or become more fun for both of them.

I really want to suggest stepping up play with Mickey. If Pesto is in another room and out of sight do you think Mickey would look for Pesto? Probably not. Then if so, would it be possible to distract Mickey? Play builds confidence and it does tire out cats to some degree. If we offer an alternative that is more fun than chasing a more confident cat then it should help calm things down. Always after a good play session feed either treats or a meal. It replicates the Hunt, Capture, Kill, Eat instinct. We do feed a bit of wet food after play. (Jackson Galaxy tips)

It sounds like a kitten wanting to play and playing a bit too rough. So I think we can handle this. I do think his adolescence has a lot to do with this. My husband keeps claiming that maybe he is just a jerk.

Our goals really are to associate the cats with good things (food), to build confidence and to try to make every encounter as positive as possible (distracting with food or play to avoid a negative chase etc).

Don't worry, we should be able to work through this. Mickey is a kitten and a 2 1/2 month intro is not long so it may have been a touch rushed but we can work through this. I need to clarify. We brought Mickey home February 11th and did the very, very slow intro (scent swap, closed door, cracked door, baby gate, etc....) and then very slow and limited face to face. This process started February 13th and lasted till about mid-May with full immersion May 29th. Then we worked up from there. We started leaving Mickey out more as he was back sliding, we thought because he was resentful of being locked up in the guest room any more.

Please feel free to ask any questions any time. I am happy to help.

Thanks for your responses. I have answered your additional thoughts in bold after each statement. I think the takeaway for us is to spend more time with each cat (separately) engaged in play time. I'll keep you posted!

 

[calicosrspecial]

Thank you, this is very helpful.

The fact that they do get along at times is huge and tells me it will work. Don't worry.

Given Mickey can be distracted with play please use play to distract if it seems like it is getting too rough, negative etc. This will help Mickey find something else more interesting than bothering Pesto and it will also give Pesto a bit more confidence.

Food association is a great way to have positive association. I would consider moving the food closer every day. So they at some point are eating with each other. But as long as they are focused on the food. Anytime they are together and enjoying something and not in a negative encounter is a great positive experience that builds trust between them.

Mickey could feel some of the negative emotions and that could cause some anxiety etc. Possibly some redirection. Cats are not really jerks or do things to antagonize us, they are just cats. I would love to see your husband accept and love Mickey more. great that he is feeding Mickey. Maybe treats as well? Anything to improve the relationship between them. I know it is hard to achieve this with a spouse, just try your best. Emotions really are important when dealing with cats because they really do take on our emotions. I see it with ferals I deal with all the time. They are much calmer and better when I am calm and confident.

I would try to step up play with Mickey as well with Pesto out of view. That could be helpful. Especially in areas when he chases.

Cat intros can take a month or so up to a year. It really just depends. We can get through this, I am not worried. The fact they can be good together tells me we just need to focus on a few things and they'll be improved. We need to build Pesto's confidence so that he is less likely to be bullied. I truly believe a confident cat is less likely to attack or be attacked.

Don't worry, we'll get them to get along. I am here anytime so please feel free to ask anything anytime and please update me on how things are going.