Finally! My first batch of raw and I have questions

[goholistic]

For some of you reading this, you might have just fallen off your seat. It took six months of you trying to persuade me to do this, but I have finally made my first batch of raw rabbit to try with my cats. I have lots of questions.

I followed the raw rabbit recipe provided by @mschauer here: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/272287/raw-recipe-thread

IMAG0579.jpg

• goholistic
• Feb 9, 2014

Since I didn't want to make a full batch, yet, I started with 1 lb. of boneless ground rabbit and used that as my base, so then I basically had to divide everything else by 5 for the reduced batch. Since some of the supplements were then a ridiculously small amount, it may not be perfect. Instead of the chicken heart and chicken liver, I used ground rabbit organs from Hare Today that consist of 50% liver, 25% heart and 25% kidney. For the egg, I whisked the whole thing together (white and yolk) and then measured out what I needed. I didn't have my mom's coffee grinder, yet, so I hand ground the eggshell with a mortar and pestle. I found all the supplements at The Vitamin Shoppe without a problem. I already had everything except vitamin E, manganese, and B-complex. The fish oil I decided to omit and will add during feeding time as I already do.

Sebastian already showed interest in the raw rabbit before I even made it. It was defrosting in the fridge and this is what I found (don't mind fridge contents). The raw rabbit is on the top shelf.

IMAG0575.jpg

• goholistic
• Feb 9, 2014

IMAG0577.jpg

• goholistic
• Feb 9, 2014

I let Boo and Sebastian try the raw rabbit immediately after making it. I put down a small dollop (maybe a 1/4 teaspoon) and they both hoofed it.  

  Sebastian was begging for more, but I have to be careful with him because he's so sensitive to change. I did offer him another 1/4 tsp. this morning and will continue to do this at every meal and slowly increase the amount. I am not mixing it into his wet food. Boo did not regurgitate what I gave him, so that is also a plus. The last time I offered raw to Boo, it was the Nature's Variety Raw Bites Lamb, and he would regurgitate it every time. Turns out he probably can't handle the red meat. Caesar, unfortunately, walked away from the raw rabbit. This does not surprise me.

So, here are my questions:

• I thought I read that raw egg whites are not good for cats. Am I supposed to use them or not? Should I use just the yolk?
• Is Morton Lite Salt the same as Morton Salt Substitute? I only had the latter, and in doing a quick search I see they are not the same and that I should get the Morton Lite Salt.
• Even with the reduced batch, it seems there is very few supplements to the amount of meat. I guess a little goes a long way. No question here; just an observation.
• I took the rabbit out of the freezer on Thursday night and put it in the fridge in a bowl to thaw. It was thawed within 24 hours, but I wasn't ready to make the rabbit until Saturday night. Is it okay for it to be in the fridge this long?
• When I opened the package, it seems that the rabbit developed a brown "skin". Is this normal? Is this from oxidation or exposure to air after defrosting? Or is this freezer burn? Is it still okay for my cats to eat? You can see a piece of the brown bit in the picture above.
• After I measured out the meat, I put the whole bowl of it right back in the fridge (unmixed) while I was measuring out my supplements. I do worry about meat going bad, so I am going to be a little OCD about this. Is there a time threshold of how long it can be left out?
• Since I didn't use the whole chub of ground rabbit organs, I had to re-freeze the rest. Is it okay to thaw and refreeze several times? Is there a rule of thumb of how many times this can be done before it needs to be tossed?
• When I finally mixed the meat and supplements together, I immediately put it in small plastic freezer-safe containers (they've been pre-washed) and put them in the freezer. Are these kind of containers okay?
• I put a small amount of the raw rabbit in the fridge to use this week and let the cats try it. How long can I keep it in the fridge before it needs to be tossed?
• On a side note, I noticed that the raw rabbit has turned brown in the fridge (it started out red). Is this normal?
• Do you refrigerate any of your other ingredients or supplements (i.e., eggshells, vitamins, etc.)?

Thank you for reading through all this! If anyone has any suggestions on how to enhance the recipe, please share! Or if I'm doing something wrong, please let me know.

 

[cprcheetah]

I am new to feeding cats raw, but have fed multiple dogs raw for 3 years.  I do know that cats are somewhat different and I have done a lot of research about cats as I have wanted to take the plunge for a long time, so I will answer your questions to the best of my knowledge.  I'm sure more experienced cat feeders will come along and answer them better. 

So, here are my questions:

 

• I thought I read that raw egg whites are not good for cats. Am I supposed to use them or not? Should I use just the yolk?   I give my cats the whole egg.  It says to lightly cook them on Dr. Pierson's website, but I don't do that.  I have read on multiple websites that whole raw eggs are just fine for cats. 
• Is Morton Lite Salt the same as Morton Salt Substitute? I only had the latter, and in doing a quick search I see they are not the same and that I should get the Morton Lite Salt.  Yes, they are not the same, you want the Lite Salt as it has the iodine in it
• I took the rabbit out of the freezer on Thursday night and put it in the fridge in a bowl to thaw. It was thawed within 24 hours, but I wasn't ready to make the rabbit until Saturday night. Is it okay for it to be in the fridge this long?  Yes in feeding my dog raw I have left food in the fridge for 4 or 5 days without problems.  However I have heard cats are a lot more sensitive to 'aged' meat so hopefully someone with more experience will weigh in on this.
• When I opened the package, it seems that the rabbit developed a brown "skin". Is this normal? Is this from oxidation or exposure to air after defrosting? Or is this freezer burn? Is it still okay for my cats to eat? You can see a piece of the brown bit in the picture above.  Probably just oxidation/exposure to air.  Should be just fine as I have fed that before without problem. 
• After I measured out the meat, I put the whole bowl of it right back in the fridge (unmixed) while I was measuring out my supplements. I do worry about meat going bad, so I am going to be a little OCD about this. Is there a time threshold of how long it can be left out?     I made 12# of animal food yesterday.  I left all the meat out overnight (not in the fridge) to defrost.  I am not as ocd about the meat going bad.  I plain and simply didn't have any room in my fridge as we just stocked up both human and pet food.  Haven't had a problem feeding this way.
• Since I didn't use the whole chub of ground rabbit organs, I had to re-freeze the rest. Is it okay to thaw and refreeze several times? Is there a rule of thumb of how many times this can be done before it needs to be tossed?  Not sure in cats but I thaw and refreeze quite a bit for my dog.  I do know that cats are more sensitive so have heard not to do this. 
• When I finally mixed the meat and supplements together, I immediately put it in small plastic freezer-safe containers (they've been pre-washed) and put them in the freezer. Are these kind of containers okay?   I use ziploc (snack sized) baggies for my crew, I make them in their individual meal sized portions.  But I used to use the plastic containers. 
• I put a small amount of the raw rabbit in the fridge to use this week and let the cats try it. How long can I keep it in the fridge before it needs to be tossed?  I think probably about 4-5 days or so.  I normally thaw about 1 & 1/2 days worth at a time in my fridge. 
• On a side note, I noticed that the raw rabbit has turned brown in the fridge (it started out red). Is this normal?  Yes it's from the oxidation
• Do you refrigerate any of your other ingredients or supplements (i.e., eggshells, vitamins, etc.)?   I freeze my eggshells as I heard it keeps them fresher.

Thank you for reading through all this! If anyone has any suggestions on how to enhance the recipe, please share! Or if I'm doing something wrong, please let me know.

 

[gcat]

Congrats on the first raw rabbit batch! It seems like you’re doing everything right- it’s great that Sebastian and Boo love it (those pics made me laugh- Sebastian is clearly interested in the new item on the menu!

). I made my first rabbit raw meal for my picky 5-year-old DSH Baloo a couple years back and he gobbled it all down.   

To answer your questions as completely as possible (I’m sure that other members will have a lot of additional tips):

 I thought I read that raw egg whites are not good for cats. Am I supposed to use them or not? Should I use just the yolk?
            Cooked egg whites provide a good source of protein but aren’t very high in phosphorus. I’ve read the negative comments about raw egg whites but am not sure if they are bad for them or not. I just scramble the entire egg and mix it in.

Is Morton Lite Salt the same as Morton Salt Substitute? I only had the latter, and in doing a quick search I see they are not the same and that I should get the Morton Lite Salt.

            They are not the same thing. I use Morton Lite Salt and not the substitute after reading that some cats don’t like the bitter flavor of some salt substitutes- but I’m not sure if that’s true or not.

I took the rabbit out of the freezer on Thursday night and put it in the fridge in a bowl to thaw. It was thawed within 24 hours, but I wasn't ready to make the rabbit until Saturday night. Is it okay for it to be in the fridge this long?

            It’s okay for it to be in the fridge for 2 days- don’t worry about that. I think 4 days is the limit for cats as they’re more sensitive to aged food.

When I opened the package, it seems that the rabbit developed a brown "skin". Is this normal? Is this from oxidation or exposure to air after defrosting? Or is this freezer burn? Is it still okay for my cats to eat? You can see a piece of the brown bit in the picture above.

            I notice the brown layer every time I make the rabbit meal as well. I’m pretty sure it’s due to oxidation, but I’m not completely sure.

After I measured out the meat, I put the whole bowl of it right back in the fridge (unmixed) while I was measuring out my supplements. I do worry about meat going bad, so I am going to be a little OCD about this. Is there a time threshold of how long it can be left out?

            I’m not very picky about how long the meat can be left out. Sometimes I leave the meat out overnight at room temperature to defrost.

Since I didn't use the whole chub of ground rabbit organs, I had to re-freeze the rest. Is it okay to thaw and refreeze several times? Is there a rule of thumb of how many times this can be done before it needs to be tossed?

            In theory, you could thaw and refreeze as many times as needed and it would still be safe to eat, but as you probably know, the quality and taste declines as you refreeze it more. Cats can be pretty sensitive about the quality and freshness about the meat.

When I finally mixed the meat and supplements together, I immediately put it in small plastic freezer-safe containers (they've been pre-washed) and put them in the freezer. Are these kind of containers okay?

            Plastic pre-washed containers are perfect for storing the mix.

I put a small amount of the raw rabbit in the fridge to use this week and let the cats try it. How long can I keep it in the fridge before it needs to be tossed?

            I’m guessing probably 3-5 days just to be safe, or less than that.

On a side note, I noticed that the raw rabbit has turned brown in the fridge (it started out red). Is this normal?

            Again, I think this is due to oxidation, so it should be normal. You’ll probably realize it’s starting to go bad when it starts to smell strange, have a sticky/tacky feel, or a slimy appearance.

Do you refrigerate any of your other ingredients or supplements (i.e., eggshells, vitamins, etc.)?

            I freeze the eggshells, but not the vitamins. I think freezing them keeps them fresher.

I think you’re doing everything right and it’s great that you’re slowly transitioning your kitties and that they love the new food.

 

 

[Willowy]

Morton's Salt Substitute is all potassium, no sodium or iodine. Morton's Lite Salt is half sodium, half potassium, with iodine added. Since you need the sodium and iodine, yeah, it's the Lite Salt you need, not the Substitute :/. But it should be OK for this batch.

 

[peaches08]

The avidin issue and B vitamins may be overblown. However because my cats have IBS I only add the yolk.

Do you have any sort of electric slicer? That way you can just slice whatever amount you need to defrost. For the most part the freezing/thawing affects taste but isn't too much of a safety concern.

I use plastic and haven't had any problems. I thaw out a few days' worth at a time.

Definitely get the Lite salt with iodine.

Great that they're excited about it! I know raw meat seems so counterintuitive right now, but it's worth a shot.

 

[ldg]

:bigthumb:

The issue with the avidin in the white is that it binds with the biotin in the yolk, reducing availability. If raw egg whites are fed WITHOUT the yolk, it can reduce the amount of biotin uptake. But eggs are the perfect food when fed whole - yolks are rich in biotin. So whether you use just the yolk, a whole raw egg, or if you want to lightly cook the white (which deactivates the biotin-binding property of the whites) is really up to you. The *potential* issue is feeding the whites without the yolks. It was in a private conversation with a client that Dr. Pierson said she felt the raw egg white issue was overblown.

The issue with leaving foods in the fridge is histamine creation from bacterial breakdown. Interestingly this is more of a problem with cooked meats than with raw meats. Raw meat - other than pork liver - has no or almost no histamines when fresh. For sensitive cats, you may not want to go more than 2 days in the fridge.

I don't know about the thawing and refreezing. I thaw frozen meat, package it, and refreeze it. I've never needed to freeze it again after thawing. I leave it in the fridge and use it over the next day or two if it wasn't eaten at the one meal.

I hope Sebastian likes it!

 

[goholistic]

Thanks all! I'm glad I made a small batch to start because I knew I'd either screw it up or would need to make some adjustments. 

I will definitely get the Morton Lite Salt when I go to make a larger batch. I'm literally only giving a nickel-sized dollop at each meal, so it shouldn't do any harm. I think I'm okay with feeding the whole egg, and the next batch will be easier because I'll know that it's the full whole egg. I think two days in the fridge is a good number. Unfortunately, this means that the small container I put in the fridge will have to be tossed by the end of today.  Bummer. I shouldn't have to do too much thawing and refreezing when I'm making larger batches, so I see this as only temporary.

Well, both Boo and Sebastian have been eating the nickel-sized dollop that I give them in a separate bowl at each meal. I am not mixing it in their wet food. Sebastian begs for more.  

  Maybe he really likes it. I'm sure he's just relieved to have something different! 

Does anyone else do a rabbit-only recipe? Is it this one? Or do you use a different recipe? I'm interesting in seeing different variations.

ETA: I forgot to add that when I give Sebastian a dollop of the raw food, it acts almost like an appetite stimulant. He'll be fussy about his canned rabbit, so then I'll give him the raw, and then he'll go and finish the canned with gusto. 

 

[gcat]

 
Thanks all! I'm glad I made a small batch to start because I knew I'd either screw it up or would need to make some adjustments. 

I will definitely get the Morton Lite Salt when I go to make a larger batch. I'm literally only giving a nickel-sized dollop at each meal, so it shouldn't do any harm. I think I'm okay with feeding the whole egg, and the next batch will be easier because I'll know that it's the full whole egg. I think two days in the fridge is a good number. Unfortunately, this means that the small container I put in the fridge will have to be tossed by the end of today.  Bummer. I shouldn't have to do too much thawing and refreezing when I'm making larger batches, so I see this as only temporary.

Well, both Boo and Sebastian have been eating the nickel-sized dollop that I give them in a separate bowl at each meal. I am not mixing it in their wet food. Sebastian begs for more.  

  Maybe he really likes it. I'm sure he's just relieved to have something different! 

Does anyone else do a rabbit-only recipe? Is it this one? Or do you use a different recipe? I'm interesting in seeing different variations.

ETA: I forgot to add that when I give Sebastian a dollop of the raw food, it acts almost like an appetite stimulant. He'll be fussy about his canned rabbit, so then I'll give him the raw, and then he'll go and finish the canned with gusto. 

Wow. Sebastian must love the taste of rabbit. 

 So does Baloo- he'll only eat rabbit, even though I tried a small batch of Cornish game hen for him but he wouldn't touch it. One of my friends uses quail in her recipes. I've been advised not to use pork because there's a chance the cats may develop roundworm if the pork's contaminated with the larvae, and it's also very fatty, which isn't a very good substitution for those rodents and birds our kitties love. 

The raw food acted like an appetite stimulant when I was transitioning as well. I don't know why, though.

 Maybe another member can pitch in about that.

 

[goholistic]

The raw food acted like an appetite stimulant when I was transitioning as well. I don't know why, though.

 Maybe another member can pitch in about that.

Interesting! Maybe it sparks their carnivorous cravings and makes them salivate or something? 

If, and when, we get to that point, quail might be a good protein to introduce. Unfortunately, Sebastian isn't eating much of anything right now (see his thread in Cat Health). 

On another note, I found stored away in my kitchen an unopened package of two "cubette" mini ice cube trays (here's a picture from the web: http://fantes.com/images/4211-2ice.jpg). This is perfect for the transition...I can make my own little raw bites! I don't have to worry about taking too much out of the freezer and it going bad after two days in the fridge. Yeah me! 

 

[gcat]

Ice cube trays would be a purrfect way to slowly and steadily transition them into the new food. 

 I'll look through Sebastian's thread and see what I can contribute. Poor kitty.

 

[ritz]

Glad it's going well. I use ice cube trays to freeze appropriate amounts of organ (liver and kidney); I feed prey model raw.
Ritz loves rabbit too; it is low in fat so maybe she has to eat a lot to feel satieted. But this is a cat who lives to eat.....
I use small tubbermaid contains to store the daily portion of raw food, defrost two at a time. Defrosting time varies among refrigerators.
We in the DC/Baltimore area are getting a big snow storm so I'll be off Thursday--purfect timing for me to make up a batch of food. I need to get a really sharp pair of scissors or electric knife, otherwise, I'll re-injure my rotator cuff.

 

[goholistic]

Sebastian has explosive diarrhea, and the timing would make one assume it is from the raw. It was brought to my attention that perhaps eggs are a problem since Sebastian is on a strict novel protein diet. It didn't even occur to me that I've essentially added in another protein by including the egg. How is the recipe affected if I omit the egg? Is there something I could add to the recipe in place of the egg that wouldn't serve as a possible allergen? @mschauer?

 

[mschauer]

 
Sebastian has explosive diarrhea, and the timing would make one assume it is from the raw. It was brought to my attention that perhaps eggs are a problem since Sebastian is on a strict novel protein diet. It didn't even occur to me that I've essentially added in another protein by including the egg. How is the recipe affected if I omit the egg? Is there something I could add to the recipe in place of the egg that wouldn't serve as a possible allergen? @mschauer?

Egg is a good natural source of B vitamins but if you are adding the B-complex supplement it's probably OK to omit it. Later if you figure out egg wasn't the problem it would be great to add them back in. Eggs are packed  with nutrients!

 

[goholistic]

 
Egg is a good natural source of B vitamins but if you are adding the B-complex supplement it's probably OK to omit it. Later if you figure out egg wasn't the problem it would be great to add them back in. Eggs are packed  with nutrients!

 Okay, thank you! 

 

[oneandahalfcats]

Love the picture of Sebastian looking into the fridge. Congratulations on your first batch of raw.

I hope to try raw sometime this year on my crew.  I think its time ...

 

[gcat]

 
Egg is a good natural source of B vitamins but if you are adding the B-complex supplement it's probably OK to omit it. Later if you figure out egg wasn't the problem it would be great to add them back in. Eggs are packed  with nutrients!

Agree with mschauer. 

 

Continuing lots of positive vibes and support for you and Sebastian-keep us updated.