Fighting keeps getting worse- long

cearbhaill

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I have two brother cats and one unrelated. They are all going to turn six years old next month. The brothers were adopted when they were eight weeks old and the unrelated one was adopted when he (and they) was four months old. They are all neutered and vetted regularly.
The brothers have always been extremely close and viewed the unrelated cat as an outsider, but they all peacefully co-existed for about five years. Approximately a year ago the brothers started picking on the unrelated one by chasing him. Initially I think the brothers wanted to play but unrelated boy doesn't seem to know how to play with them. As they kept chasing him he began to get defensive and would growl if one came within about 10 feet or so. We co-existed in this manner relatively well for a long time- it was annoying but no one got hurt.

In July unrelated boy experienced a urinary blockage and was in and out of the hospital a few times and every time I brought him back home the fighting was worse. As he felt bad, was eating different food, and I needed to monitor his litterbox usage I kept him separated from the brothers in a hospital room.
He is all well now but the fighting has increased.

So currently the brothers spend 12 hours a day upstairs with unrelated boy downstairs then I switch them for the next 12 hours so that everyone gets decent social time with the rest of the family (husband and two dogs).
And so now they will even fight through the crack under the door.
As I carry unrelated boy at switch time he hisses and growls if he even sees a brother. He is bigger than both the brothers put together and looks as if he could defend himself well but he always just runs.
If we make a door or switch time error they are on him in 0.01 seconds- I will literally have a ball o' three screaming cats crashing its way around my home. They are all clawed and while I clip nails every couple of weeks I most certainly do not want them hurting one another, never mind that screaming ball o' cat sets off the dogs.

I have four litter boxes.
I have Feliway.
I have two floors, four cat trees, multiple perches and catwalks overhead- I have done everything I know to provide as much territory as possible.
We exercise each cat individually nearly every day.
I have done the vanilla thing, the sock thing, used cans of Feliway and am at my very wits end here.

As the stress of living among the brothers undoubtedly contributed to the unrelated boys urinary issues I feel it is crucial to figure this thing out, especially as the door used to separate them must remain open during heating season for air exchange.

I am now gating off one section of the house for unrelated boy and am planning on doing an entirely new introduction period as per Pam Johnson-Bennett in her Cat vs. Cat book.
I will be using three gates stacked in a hallway, so the cats will be able to see and hear each other.
I will use Feliway.
In short I will do anything possible to get these cats to a point where they can tolerate one another. But I cannot have unrelated boy being stressed simply walking around in his own home.
My brother cats just seem to hate the very sight of him.

All three of them are wonderful, people oriented, very social cats and each of them is my heart
.
I cannot fathom having to rehome unrelated boy although my head tells me he would do well as a singleton cat. But he has never been outdoors (while I am in a rural area that considers that cruel), has the medical issues, is happily spoiled and quirky and I seriously doubt I could ever find a home for him that would suit me.
He is too special, as they all are.
And I am his mommy.

So what else can I do, attempt, rearrange, or change?
I have got to make this work before the stress kills me.
 

feralvr

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I am so sorry you are dealing with this situation. It is true that stress can easily bring on bladder problems. I have one cat who is extremely high-strung with chronic blood in urine issues. We started him on Elavil (an anti-depressant) to help with his anxiety and aggression (mostly being aggressive if he feels the need to protect me or the other cats from eachother, or even keeping the dogs under control ). It is something you could ask your vet about for the unrelated boy. It could help the bladder and the anger issues at the same time.

I am wondering if you were to put one brother in with the unrelated boy and keep the other brother away, would they be able to develop a relationship without the influence of the other brother being around
. I mean, at first it might take a few days, but if the one brother realizes that the other brother is not around, he might be more willing to make friends with the unrelated cat again. These two brothers are a little pack and follow each others lead to pick on the unrelated cat. And now the unrelated cat has become defensive at all times around these two boys.
I have noticed this with my own cats. Perkins and Presley will team up and pick on their sister Perla. It is usually Perkins who starts it. So I get out a interactive toy and spend some alone time with Perla and Perkins playing together. Works great to diffuse any bad
feelings that Perla has towards her brother for chasing her.

If you can find some way to make the outsider kitty bond with just one of the brothers, things might turn around. Even taking them both out of their territory to somewhere neutral where they will be too interested and worried as to where they are rather than focusing on fighting with eachother is one way to re-kindle a friendship. I am just thinking that if you could separate the two brothers and introduce only one brother without the other one, things might improve. But this could take quite some time, even a couple of weeks or more. I do like Pam Johnson-Bennett and that is a very good book to get advice from. I really hope you can get all three cats living peacefully together again.
 

presto

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Originally Posted by Feralvr

I am wondering if you were to put one brother in with the unrelated boy and keep the other brother away, would they be able to develop a relationship without the influence of the other brother being around
. I mean, at first it might take a few days, but if the one brother realizes that the other brother is not around, he might be more willing to make friends with the unrelated cat again.
I just want to say that before I even read this reply, I had the exact same thought while reading the original post! Sure, maybe the two-against-one issue could be removed, and we'll see how brave ONE brother is with the bigger cat? Maybe these brothers need to "submit" to the big guy one at a time, and then they'll respect him.

I saw a very interesting program on Animal Planet about trying to return two male lions into the wild (after they had been in captivity). The two were in separate pens, but they could see and smell each other. The larger adult male would get crazy aggressive (like he wanted to kill the other male) every time they met at the bars. The handlers finally realized that if the two were to make it in the wild they would have to be let out together. If the big male was going to kill the younger male, he was going to have his chance. As soon as they were let out together, the big male started what looked like a serious attack, but the younger male immediately lay down and rolled on his back and "submitted" to the big guy. This had to happen - and then the two of them peacefully walked off into the wild.
 
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cearbhaill

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Thank you for the replies!

Since my post I have sectioned off one end of the house with three baby gates blocking a doorway and spraying the vestibule vicinity daily with Feliway. That end of the house got a new cat tree and a couple of new beds in an attempt to give the unrelated boy a place that is truly his own. The brothers sit outside the gates often and initially the unrelated boy sat there and hissed and growled at them. I noticed yesterday that he was lying just inside the gates grooming himself while the brothers sat outside watching and I haven't heard a hiss or a growl in almost a week.

So I have begun feeding unrelated boy just inside the gates and brothers just outside the gates and all is well.

I had just mentioned to husband last night that after another week or so I would like to try the least feisty brother with unrelated boy, maybe on (figure eight) leashes for a communal meal and a little supervised interaction. If that goes well I'll do it daily and at some point try the more... spirited of the unrelated boys separately.
I don't want to go too fast and cause a setback.

At any rate I am a tad more optimistic than when I wrote the original post- I was really down about it all last week. But now that the hissing and growling has ceased I think we may be inching towards a resolution that doesn't involve me having to climb in and out of rooms in my own house to service the cats


Again, thanks for the thoughts- encouragement and support helps, really it does.

Here they are in better days...
 

rafm

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Sounds like things are headed in the right direction!


On a side note, when you take unrelated kitty to the vet, separate him for a bit when he gets home, even after a short visit to the vet. I've found that my aggressive kitty gets very agitated when one of the other cats comes in smelling so different. If we keep them separated for the remainder of the day, we have fewer flair ups.
 

feralvr

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This is a great update
. Brilliant idea about the baby gates. I use a large sliding plexi-glass divider so cats can see eachother without access. The baby gates are even better in your situation as they can still smell eachother. Perfect to feed them in each side of their gate too
. I really think you are headed in the right direction and putting the least dominant brother in with the unrelated boy is exactly what I would do. Supervised at first of course.

I agree with RAFM in that when any cat comes home from the vet, keep them separated for a bit. The smell from the vet's office can bring about insecurity amongst all cats and redirected aggression can emerge.

What a beautiful trio of cats!!!! Love that picture and
that you will have that again soon
 
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cearbhaill

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It's very discouraging.
I can now remove the gates and allow everyone to eat together.
But the moment the food is gone Loomis (black, unrelated boy) starts hissing and crouching and growling then running away even though no one is chasing him- the brothers seem to have lost interest in him. And of course that behavior intrigues the brothers who follow to see what's up. They are not chasing him or looking aggressive in the least and if he would not run I don't believe they would follow him.

I have done one brother at a time and Loomis still reacts as if the very hounds of hell are after him.
I have sprayed Feliway daily and always put some on my hand and pet each cat before the communal feed.

I really think this is his issue entirely- for some reason he will not give up the idea that they want to murder him. I will keep doing daily communal feeding but at this point I think I am going to start investigating pharmaceuticals for him.
This gate situation is getting old and I do not like him isolated from the family to this degree. I spend as much time as I can in his portion of the house but I know he misses being with everyone all the time and I miss him as well.
 

feralvr

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Loomis does sound like he has it in his "mind" that the two brother's are after him. And rightly so, because they DID chase and pick on him for many months
. So it will take many months for Loomis to trust them again. I really do think, IMHO, that you could look into a low-dose anti-depressant for Loomis. Since putting Pipsqueak on, Elavil (amitriptyline) 5 mg. per day, he has completely calmed down as far as over-reacting to everything that goes on in the household OR outside the windows too. He has stopped going after the dogs and is not loosing it when the other cat's play rough together. It has also helped with his need to urinate so frequently. He now has MUCH bigger urine clumps and he only goes to the box about twice daily. Soon, I will test to see if the blood is gone and I am sure there has to be an improvement. His bladder has calmed down due to his stress level calming down, it has been a positive change for him. Yet, he still has his cute, endearing, talkative personality and is still the "guardian" of the house, but not to the extreme like before.
.

Talk to your vet about this option. It might really help get things "back on track" like the way things were in the past. I am glad to hear the brother's are not chasing him. What good boys!!!
Much luck with this and hope Loomis can feel better soon.
 

kit e cat

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I have a cat, that after living peacefully for about 2 years with 9 other cats, became withdrawn and stressed out. He stopped grooming himself, hid all the time, got into huge screaming fights, and was just overall miserable, making everyone else miserable too. In August of 2009, I moved him into my bedroom, alone, with his food and litter box, and that was the last time he's been out of that room. He is alone for the better part of the day, but sleeps with my boyfriend and I and the dogs at night. He started grooming himself again, he's happy, shiny, eats well, no more stress. At the beginning I couldn't imagine secluding him from the rest of the house, but after seeing the transformation in him, its exactly what I needed to do, and Oscar is totally happy with it.
 
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cearbhaill

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Thanks for posting that Kit E Cat- it makes me feel better.

If I thought Loomis was happy being secluded that would be one thing but I know he is not. He meows to be let out and once, when a gate was placed improperly, he managed to break himself out and ran to join me. He is a very people oriented cat- actually all of mine are. I know he craves more contact and that makes me sad.

We have been letting him have the run of the upstairs overnight, but our primary heat source is on the lower level and we need the doors to be open in order to circulate heat during the winter. Plus with the doors closed I cannot hear what is going on elsewhere in the house and I have other cats and dogs to micromanage  :)

What do we think of my putting a figure eight harness on him with a 10 foot leash or so in order to do some socialization training?
I am considering trying it in order to be able to sit in the floor with him while the others sniffed around. I could control his running away and allow everyone to enjoy some petting and treats. If he reacted badly I would of course discontinue it.

Just brainstorming here.
 

rafm

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While the harness idea sounds good in theory, it probably won't go over well in execution. And that's because Loomis would not have an escape and that can be very stressful to him. So then you have an extremely stressed out cat tied to the end of a string and the only way to move him out of the situation is to pick him up (cat bites are EXTREMELY dangerous) or drag him to another room (even more stressful). None of those options help the situation.

I have heard of people using crates, not the plastic ones but the large dog kennel type, to allow interaction. Some say it works but I've seen it go bad, again, kitty doesn't have an escape.

Medicating your kitty may be a good option. If it is dosed correctly you will see a more laid back kitty that can allow positive interactions that will help him get past this block.
 
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cearbhaill

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I just had a consult and picked up Loomis' prescription for Buspar, 5mg 2xday.

I am to give it to him for one week before starting a new round of desensitization exercises, and to continue those exercises for another three weeks.

At that point they want to re-evaluate his progress but it is likely the meds will have to be continued for at least a few months.

Fingers crossed that this takes the edge off his fear of being attacked and that I am able to reintegrate him into the family.

His wing of the house is nice and all but his people relax elsewhere and I really want him back beside me with all the other critters during the evening.
 
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cearbhaill

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Just for closure- after trying several different medications and endless hours of desensitization for over a year and a half the situation only went downhill.

One particularly bad day when the malfunction of a simple doorknob allowed all three cats to get together the mega fight to end all mega fights broke out.

Ball of three cats rolling and screaming and tearing at each other, blood, pee- it was a horrific nightmare.

Besides the cat injuries I received thirteen severe puncture wounds breaking them up and spent a week on IV antibiotics to head off a bone infection in my right hand.

As much as it saddens us Loomis has been relocated to a one cat home.

I swore I would never ever give him up but the circumstances had degraded to the point that I felt I had no choice.

Sad, sad, sad.
 
 

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Oh that is so sad.  Just read all your posts now (am a brand new member with new cat adjustment issues) and was intrigued and saddened with your story.  Not a great ending, but but must say there isn't anything you didn't try to get it to work. You gave it your everything and I admire your efforts.  Well done.
 

catspaw66

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Oh that is so sad.  Just read all your posts now (am a brand new member with new cat adjustment issues) and was intrigued and saddened with your story.  Not a great ending, but but must say there isn't anything you didn't try to get it to work. You gave it your everything and I admire your efforts.  Well done.
Please start a new thread and let us know what the problem is.
 
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