feeding cats live prey

[feralvr]

Is giving them a live mouse in an enclosed area any less fair than feeding them animals killed in a slaughter house?  I don't think so.  You could make the argument that they're better at humane killing at the slaughter house, but fairness is out the window.  Fairness means that the cat has a chance of starving.  After all, that's what happens in the wild.  Either the prey dies or the predator starves.  That's why we feed ferals.  

So, are you against feeding cats pre-killed mice?  I would consider that basically on par with feeding them commercial food made out of meat.  Unless your cats are vegan... 

I can certainly see where your coming from but no, I do not think feeding a cat a live mouse is the same as feeding them meat from a slaughter house. Cats must eat meat, period. And, yes, meat that our cats eat comes from the slaughter house just as it does for humans (if you feed human quality meat to your cat.) I feed my cats raw meat, commercially made raw and canned foods. I would have no problem feeding my cats a frozen pinkie or frozen mouse. Hare Today (in PA) sells ground raw mouse btw. A few raw feeders here have tried the raw ground mouse. Slaughtering animals and feeding live prey to cats are not the same to me, or even the hunting of animals when in one shot (unless you are a bad shot) they are killed. Quick and painless, for the most part.

And, cats cannot be vegan to survive or you just made that remark sarcastically.

 

[feralvr]

My main argument with live feeding is that pet cats are almost never efficient killers, and the animal usually suffers unduly, and unnecessarily, without any chance to escape. Pre-killed mice (and slaughtered animals) are killed quickly, and (if it goes as planned) without undue suffering.

Couldn't have said it any better. :nod:

 

[feralvr]

Interesting that this thread was originally from 2009 and started by Ben234 who only posted once to start the thread. Then it was dug up last summer by AEChen who never posted in it but that one time and now dug up again by Socksy. It's the thread that just won't go away. :rofl: Funny how that works, an OP starts the discussion but never returns. Yeah, interesting topic and one I should just stay away from if I know what is good for me. :lol3:

 

[auntie crazy]

...

I suppose this topic reminds me of people who think it's cruel that I go hunting, but there they are chowing down on their chicken wings.  What's the difference between the pheasant I shot and the chicken you're eating?  Well, for one, the pheasant lived a natural, normal life out in the wild expressing all of its instinctual behaviours, was not pumped full of drugs or force-fed, and then died the way all pheasants do: it was killed and eaten by a predator (me).  The chicken... well, it could have lived free-range on an organic farm where it got to be a chicken and live like a chicken should.  Most likely it was raised in a squashed cubicle at a factory farm, was miserable and sick its entire life, and possible experienced the trauma of listening to a bunch of other chickens get slaughtered before its turn.  
.... 

It's rare that I change my viewpoint on topics on which I'm passionate, but it does happen.

I'm a veteran with a fine appreciation of firearms and the shooting sports, but I've never quite cottoned to killing for sport. Over the last six or seven years, as I've delved deeper into feline nutrition and the barbaric and deceitful practices of the pet and human food industries, my stance has shifted from 'good-heavens, you're feeding raw meat to a cat' all the way over to being willing to offer my cats pretty much any kind of raw meat, including whole prey. A couple of years ago, I reconciled enough with a brother-in-law who hunts to actually ask him to let me have some of his grouse, squirrels, etc. for my cats.

And now, in reading what you've written here, Socksy, I don't think I'd turn my nose up to the next venison dinner to which I'm invited. Yes, hunting = killing, but you're right, the meat we get from grocery stores almost invariably came from animals who lived miserable, inhumane lives. Those killed by hunters lived their lives exactly how they should have. I think that matters. Thank you for your perspective!

My main argument with live feeding is that pet cats are almost never efficient killers, and the animal usually suffers unduly, and unnecessarily, without any chance to escape. Pre-killed mice (and slaughtered animals) are killed quickly, and (if it goes as planned) without undue suffering.

Perfectly stated! I'll just add that feeding live prey also risks injury to the cat should the panicked prey fight back.

Interesting that this thread was originally from 2009 and started by Ben234 who only posted once to start the thread. Then it was dug up last summer by AEChen who never posted in it but that one time and now dug up again by Socksy. It's the thread that just won't go away.

Funny how that works, an OP starts the discussion but never returns. Yeah, interesting topic and one I should just stay away from if I know what is good for me.

The thread that won't die! LOL!

Actually, I'm glad this topic gets raised every now and then. It's important, I think, to remind ourselves that while natural (in its truest sense) nutrition is what our beloved furbabies need, the concept shouldn't be taken so far it becomes cruel or risky. Small prey animals deserve as much thoughtfulness as do the factory farm animals whose miserable lives and horrific deaths sicken us all so much. If we advocate for clean, humane deaths for one, we should do so with the other.

Great discussion!

AC

 

[minka]

My main argument with live feeding is that pet cats are almost never efficient killers, and the animal usually suffers unduly, and unnecessarily, without any chance to escape. Pre-killed mice (and slaughtered animals) are killed quickly, and (if it goes as planned) without undue suffering.

(bold added by me)

Have you never seen the video footage from inside slaughter houses? Those animals are NOT always killed quickly..
And they suffer their whole life until their untimely death. There is nothing fair about it.


And then in response to Feralvr, animals in the wild can be trapped in mud or a gully or a river though and you could say that they have an 'unfair' disadvantage too. :dk:
There's no fairness in the predator/prey world. As long as you make sure your cat actually eats the live prey you feed, I really can't see any difference between that and feeding the tortured animals of the human food industry..
You just have to watch one while the other someone can be blissfully ignorant if they so choose.

 

[Willowy]

I live in a meat production state. The slaughterhouse videos are events that are out of the ordinary. . .they lose money whenever there's a holdup in the line, and it's dangerous for the workers too (last thing you want is an injured, peeved cow or pig on the loose. People can get killed). They want everything to go smoothly, when it doesn't, someone is in trouble. As for their lives before slaughter, beef cows have it OK. Until the last 3 months or so in a feedlot, they spend most of their time on pasture. Chickens and pigs aren't so lucky, of course, and, yeah, their lives are pretty miserable.

But, just because other animals are suffering doesn't mean I should let my cats gnaw/bat some poor mouse to death :dk:. If it's in my power to prevent suffering, shouldn't I do so?

 

[socksy]

I'm a veteran with a fine appreciation of firearms and the shooting sports, but I've never quite cottoned to killing for sport. Over the last six or seven years, as I've delved deeper into feline nutrition and the barbaric and deceitful practices of the pet and human food industries, my stance has shifted from 'good-heavens, you're feeding raw meat to a cat' all the way over to being willing to offer my cats pretty much any kind of raw meat, including whole prey. A couple of years ago, I reconciled enough with a brother-in-law who hunts to actually ask him to let me have some of his grouse, squirrels, etc. for my cats.

And now, in reading what you've written here, Socksy, I don't think I'd turn my nose up to the next venison dinner to which I'm invited. Yes, hunting = killing, but you're right, the meat we get from grocery stores almost invariably came from animals who lived miserable, inhumane lives. Those killed by hunters lived their lives exactly how they should have. I think that matters. Thank you for your perspective!

So glad to read this.  

 

[auntie crazy]

...

And then in response to Feralvr, animals in the wild can be trapped in mud or a gully or a river though and you could say that they have an 'unfair' disadvantage too.

There's no fairness in the predator/prey world. As long as you make sure your cat actually eats the live prey you feed, I really can't see any difference between that and feeding the tortured animals of the human food industry..
You just have to watch one while the other someone can be blissfully ignorant if they so choose.

But, just because other animals are suffering doesn't mean I should let my cats gnaw/bat some poor mouse to death

. If it's in my power to prevent suffering, shouldn't I do so?

Willowy is right, Minka. Pain and fear and suffering in the wild do not justify the same in our kitchens. Where we *can* prevent such, we have an obligation as moral creatures to do so.

AC

 

[socksy]

I have to agree that one animal's suffering doesn't justify another's.  If you have a choice, always choose less suffering.

 

[feralvr]

And then in response to Feralvr, animals in the wild can be trapped in mud or a gully or a river though and you could say that they have an 'unfair' disadvantage too. :dk:
There's no fairness in the predator/prey world. As long as you make sure your cat actually eats the live prey you feed, I really can't see any difference between that and feeding the tortured animals of the human food industry..
You just have to watch one while the other someone can be blissfully ignorant if they so choose.

I will never see it from your point of view. period. Getting stuck in mud, well, that is nature. Survival of the fittest and the smartest. No one is going to "drop" a deer right in front of a lion. I also have never seen a lion "play" with or "toss" a deer around for awhile before they kill it. They go for the neck and suffocate the deer quickly. I do not think you can even compare wild animals feeding themselves the only way they can, the only way they can survive, to humans feeding our domesticated cats by dropping live prey in front of them on the floor, that is cruelty in my mind. If you would like to make it more "fair", please let your cat outside in the yard at the same time you drop that mouse in the grass. Doing it in your kitchen, not fair, and very, very traumatic for the little creature. Makes me sick, actually.

When I think about what you are saying about also comparing the slaughering of animals to feeding out cats live prey, I still don't think those two are comparable. One could kill/slaughter the mouse and then feed it to their cat. As Willowy pointed out earlier in a post, our indoor cats do not have the skills and swiftness to kill a mouse quickly. In fact the torture could go on for hours. I highly doubt in slaughter farms that the animals are sliced, diced and stabbed for hours until they finally succomb and their misery is ended. Still, don't see it from your point of view. Sorry.

 

[feralvr]

The thread that won't die! LOL!

AC

Pun intended!! :lol3:

 

[space1101]

Hi guys, I started giving frozen preys to my cats recently, including chickens and mice.  It was ok in the beginning, but why did they sometimes have diahrrea?  One cat has had soft poop right after eating it.   They didn't have problem with human raw meat though.     The frozen preys have been in freezer for at least a week, so there shouldn't be parasites problem right? What might be the possible cause??

 

[feralvr]

Hi guys, I started giving frozen preys to my cats recently, including chickens and mice.  It was ok in the beginning, but why did they sometimes have diahrrea?  One cat has had soft poop right after eating it.   They didn't have problem with human raw meat though.     The frozen preys have been in freezer for at least a week, so there shouldn't be parasites problem right? What might be the possible cause??

I have not a clue and not the one to answer. But, personally and this might not make sense since I feed ground raw chicken, etc. But I would think that there would be parasites in frozen mice? :dk:

 

[Willowy]

Depends where you get the mice. Reptiles can get very sick from parasites so a reputable reptile-food supplier will make sure his mice don't have parasites. Some pet stores may not be so careful, though.

 

[auntie crazy]

Hi guys, I started giving frozen preys to my cats recently, including chickens and mice.  It was ok in the beginning, but why did they sometimes have diahrrea?  One cat has had soft poop right after eating it.   They didn't have problem with human raw meat though.     The frozen preys have been in freezer for at least a week, so there shouldn't be parasites problem right? What might be the possible cause??

Although raw is the most easily digestible food you can feed, it still takes some time to get through the digestive system. A soft poop immediately after eating isn't related to what was just eaten (other than the cat had both a full tummy and a full... uh, colon); it's related to something the cat ate a few hours previously. That could include meals or something else the kitty got into.

Nor would I consider a soft stool every once in a while a cause for concern. Just keep an eye on it, maybe even start a journal noting meals fed and daily stool condition. If you see a correlation, or it starts happening a couple of times a month or more, you'll have the info you need to take appropriate action.

AC

 

[tatercat]

This is an excellent thread filled with more info than i was ready for but I'm really glad there's a place like this to talk these things out and gather each other's perspective. I just have to say, i think Willowy and Socksy said it the best--but i don't think that a farmed prey's life can be compared to the prey of the wild, dito for our felines. I saw someone mention that the prey can become traumatized from the cat playing with it's food and not dispatching it immediately whether it's due to it's clumsiness or just boredom --- but after giving the word trauma some thought, is trauma even relevant after death, without existence? Kudos 2U Cat Connoisseurs here @ TCS

 

[lilin]

I have actually thought about the live prey idea. But I've come to the conclusion many here have; it's not fair, and it's not humane.

If Pia were a feral cat, she'd kill critters every day. But that's a different circumstance. The critter would know where they were, have a chance to escape, and Pia would be an adept hunter who would move in for the kill quickly. Also, it would be a necessity. Pia would have no option to just wait until meal time.

Putting a domestic mouse in a bathtub or something where they can't get away and may not even know to run, and then letting an unskilled, naive house cat torture them for a while, and perhaps even wind up leaving them alive and suffering, is not the same thing. And it's not necessary.

It's the difference between a bull dying in a fight over territory in the wild, and a bull dying in an arena with a human stabbing them to death while onlookers cheer. There is a huge difference between those two things. There is a huge ethical difference between those two things.

Death happens. In fact, death must happen in order to keep the cats we love alive. But that doesn't mean it has to be a staged, torturous, terrified death at the hands of an incompetent killer. That is not as nature intended, and it's not justified by those kinds of arguments.

I feed Pia raw because she must eat animals to survive, and this is the best form of "animal" I can give her. I don't do it under the illusion that it's the same, or she's the same, as a feral cat in the woods. And its ethical considerations aren't the same either.

If anything, when I feed raw, I am able to have more assurance the creatures Pia's eating had better lives, and kinder deaths, than if I were feeding canned or kibble. I am also able to assure that I make the most out of their deaths for the most good, by offering them in a way that gives Pia the most life.

 

[Sa'ida Maryam]

. Being responsible pet owners. Please. Humane care for all. These stories should be ( edited). Am I the only one faint about now. OMG

 

[tobykitten]

I have to agree that one animal's suffering doesn't justify another's.  If you have a choice, always choose less suffering.

/end thread.

My interests in feeding my cat are aligned with providing a biologically appropriate diet.  My cat, while it retains certain biological characteristics of a wild cat, behaviorally, is not a wild animal.  Therefore I do not find it necesscary to feed live prey, which it would no doubt torture and perhaps not even consume in the end.

I feed a raw diet and have considered buying a bag of the pinkie mice from Hare Today but honestly I'm not sure if my cat would even be interested so I'd rather not chance waste.

 

[Sa'ida Maryam]

Very good Thread, after I read more I understand the argument. Feeding live , or pre-killed game(animals) to house cats. I do wonder how it is learned because house cats no longer hunt on a regular basis. I mean in the forest etc. Although I have imagined, buying live prey in hope of retaining some of my cat's instincts of hunting to eat. I have one cat that will jump the counter for prepared raw meat. He is a keen observant cat. Alert and intelligent. Then there is my ( Gastro-sensitive ) resque cat probably raised on pre-killed dry cat food who is slow, with low energy and my guess would DUCK FOR COVER should SHE smell a mouse . So , humane or not I do hope to have the cat that can kill prey for food. I know some ppl would never want their cat to eat a mouse. I personal am not that way. So, I live in NY. mice Rule the streets. And the city puts rodent pestidcide everywhere. In public places. The huge apt. Complexes , etc. I know for a fact that the ground is infested. Now, the burrowing holes of rats can be seen but there is no way a domestic cat or even feral can hunt for these pest. Without risk of poison ingestion. So, the closest a cat can come to the hunt is if a rodent is stupid enough to get in a house complex. I have not seen any , whereas, before the mice had taken up residency. So, naturally the scent of cats retards the prey. And this is a natural defense for the mice. I wish they did not have it, But that's just the way it is.