Feed times - 2 or 3? How much?

[cat dad]

Hi, long time lurker first time poster and first time cat owner. Longwinded post incoming (sorry =D )

I have two boys, litter mates and they are 18mos old. I've had them since they were 4mos and up until last week they have been eating Wellness canned grain free (no kibble). They are both normal weight, big guy is 14lbs, little guy is 11lbs. Big guy is nice and healthy and the little one has had digestion problems (runny stools) that the raw food seems to be helping with.

I've been feeding them rabbit (whole ground no fur/intestines) since Sunday. I've been lucky that the little one just started eating it and hasn't looked back. He goes nuts when he smells it being dished out. Big guy is naturally suspicious of everything so although he will eat a little if I put it in the same dish with his canned food, he's not fully on board yet. I have hope!

My questions revolve around the number of times per day and the amount. Since they were kittens I just got in the habit of feeding them multiple times a day. I've since settled on 3 times a day, but this isn't always convenient. Even though I work from home most days, I travel about twice a month for work and have a sitter come in. I'd like to reduce them to two feedings, once in the mornings around 7am or so, and once in the evenings around 7pm. This would be easier for the sitter and save on sitter cost as well. What is the best way to do this? Since I'm here a lot of the time, at 1pm like clockwork, they are ready to eat. Do I just put up with the begging until they eventually get the picture and stop, or is there some way to transition them? Is two feedings a day better or worse than three?

As to the amount, all the calculators say to maintain their weight I should be feeding them 4-5oz a day, but they are still really hungry with that amount. I put down 2oz for a morning feeding and the little guy is ready for another helping. I don't want them to become overweight, but I don't want them to feel hungry immediately after they've eaten. How do I know how much is the right amount?

Any advice or insights you have would be appreciated. 

Thanks!

 

[vball91]

Hi there and welcome to TCS and to raw feeding! A couple of thoughts reading your post:

1. Glad they love the rabbit and took to it so quickly. Are you planning on introducing other proteins? As a general rule you want a minimum of 3-5 proteins to provide nutritional profiles. When it comes to raw feeding, the more variety the better.

2. Where do you source your ground whole rabbit from and are you doing any additional supplementation (e.g. taurine)?

3. Cats are geared toward eating smaller more frequent meals. It's also better for regulating urine pH if you are concerned at all with urinary healthy for your two boys. Alkaline tide refers to urine pH being higher after bigger meals. Struvite crystals form in alkaline urine, so it's better to serve smaller meals with causes smaller spikes. So if you can stick with 3 feedings, it is better. Raw feeding does cause havoc with travel schedules though. Could you have your pet sitter come in twice like you are thinking, but after feeding the morning meal, the sitter could leave some freeze-dried raw like Stella and Chewy's for them as their second meal? Most raw feeders have a schedule of feeding before work, after work, before bed.

4. 2-4% of their weight is the general guideline for raw feeding. Given that they are both young at 18 months and just coming out of kittenhood, if they are still very active, the higher end would be more like 7-8 oz of raw. If they act like they are still hungry, I would feed a little more and just monitor their weight. As long as they are not gaining unwanted weight, it's fine. It might take a little experimentation to find that perfect serving size for each though.

5. Lastly, are you familiar with the raw feeding resource thread? It has a lot of great info.  http://www.thecatsite.com/t/240809/raw-feeding-resource-thread

 

[cat dad]

1. I do plan on giving them a variety of proteins, but for now I wanted them to get used to raw eating generally before I change it up on them. What would be a good one to try next? I'd like to also introduce meaty bones as an occasional meal replacement eventually.

2. I get my rabbit from Hare Today and add in the recommended amount of Alnutrin.

3. Naturally I am concerned about their urine health as well as their overall health. Ideally I would be able to have a live in cat sitter, but sadly I haven't won the lottery yet! 

 I hadn't heard about the urinary concern with number of meals, only amount of water. I will definitely think about that. I have heard people make the case for both 3x feeding and 2x feeding, so Im not entirely convinced that only feeding 2x will make me a bad kitty dad. I'd love to hear from some people who feed 2x a day and get their perspective as well.

4. Great idea, I'll try them on 6oz and see how they go and then increase it until I get to a good spot. They are still pretty active so you are right they probably need more food.

5. I wasn't familiar with that thread, but I am very familiar with most of those sites. I've been doing research on raw feeding since before I even got them. However, nothing beats real world experience from people who have gone through all this before and can add their insights and what they've learned along the way. Thank you so much for taking the time to answer.

 

[vball91]

It sounds like you are on top of things. Yes, some of the transition threads are very educational (as well as entertaining), but it sounds like you're not going to have much difficulty transitioning them.

As for new proteins, since you started with rabbit, I think you can try pretty much anything next. Most people start with chicken since it's easily tolerated, easy to source and cheap. Some cats do seem to have a problem with red meats early in the transition. We were just having a discussion about whether rabbit is considered white or red meat with no firm conclusions but lots of different definitions!

 

[cat dad]

Another quick question:

Other than the [color= rgb(24, 24, 24)]Alnutrin, is there any thing else I should be adding? Like I said, I plan on feeding whole ground (minus fur/feathers and intestines) and the [/color][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]occasional meaty bones.[/font]

 

[peaches08]

Fish or salmon oil maybe?

 

[vball91]

There are other things you *could* add. Some of us add a couple of raw egg yolks a couple of times a week. They are good nutritious snacks and provide some additional nutrients like choline and Vit. D and Omega 3s. There are also human grade probiotics which help with gut flora. Some choose to add a sardine (raw or canned in water only) once a week and/or supplement with salmon/krill oil for Omega 3s. Whether these are all *necessary* or not is a matter of debate and your personal opinion on what constitutes "nutritionally complete" for a cat.

 

[cat dad]

I've thought a probiotic might be a good idea, my little one has loose stools occasionally. Is there a particular one that's generally recommended? How much/when?

 

[vball91]

The Nexabiotic 20 strain seems to be very good and is what I am going to switch to next. The Natural Factors one is what I am using now. This is a very good recent thread on this topic. Look especially for LDG's post #4. http://www.thecatsite.com/t/262587/probiotics-search-human-grade-and-cfus

 

[cat dad]

I currently own, Natural Factors, Acidophilus & Bifidus, 5 Billion active cells. With micro flora. 

Ing: Lactose, whey, goat milk.   (plus the capsule).

I've never used this, but bought it thinking I would but then chickened out because I felt I didn't know enough about it.

Any thoughts on that one?

 

[vball91]

A lot of us on this site use the same Natural Factors but 10 billion CFU version, one capsule a day sprinkled on food. Most cats seem to like the taste and tolerate it well.

 

[cat dad]

 Could you have your pet sitter come in twice like you are thinking, but after feeding the morning meal, the sitter could leave some freeze-dried raw like Stella and Chewy's for them as their second meal?

Do you mean leave out the frozen and let it melt? 

I was thinking of freezing ice cube size portions of their raw and having him leave it in a dish to melt over the day. I'll have to experiment to see how long it takes to thaw in their dish.

 

[ravencorbie]

Freeze-dried isn't still frozen, so there wouldn't be any melting.  You add water to it and feed it as a meal or feed it dry as a snack/treat.  I was using the Stella & Chewy's freeze-dried chicken as a topper when my cat wouldn't eat the chunks of raw meat I cut up for her while I was cooking.  Now, she doesn't need it (especially with salmon!), but I still have some in case I want to give it to her as a treat.  I am not sure which version (wet or dry) vball91 was thinking of.
 

 

[cat dad]

Anyone else have any ideas on how I can get a third feeding in with a cat sitter that only comes twice a day?

 

[lcat4]

I have four cats.  Three of them got along just fine for many years eating only two meals a day.  It was the arrival of our kitten (now 15 months) that spurred everyone to want to eat more times throughout the day.  It was the general consensus if the kitten was eating, they all should be eating.   Meal time is now three times a day - 6:30 AM, 5:00 PM, and 10:30 PM ish.  I will admit the others seem happier, I like that they don't have to eat as much at one time, and they are no longer starving in the morning. 

    One of my cats has stomach acid issues in the AM, and eating the third meal late at night seems to have helped control that problem as well. 

As for getting the third meal in when you are out of town, I've tried this once and plan on doing this again when we go away for vacation next month.  It's not perfect, but the best I can come up with.  My in-laws will feed the two earlier meals at the regular time, but I can't ask them to come to my house so late at night.  I own three of the CatMate 20 feeding dispensers - the double feeder kind with a blue ice underneath.  I normally feed raw, but the last meal of the day, while we are away, will be canned.  I will have her put a can of wet in the fridge the night before (to make sure it's cold).  She will set up the dispensers with cold wet food (1 ounce in each bowl per cat) at the 5:00 hour, set to open 5 hours later.  At that point (and this is the not perfect part) it will be free-for-all to eat the food once the bowls open at 10:30 PM.  Hopefully the olders will be around to get their portion and the kitten won't eat everything on her own.

  Normally they eat three equal-portioned meals, but for that week I will have her feed a little more at the earlier meals, so in case they miss out later, they won't starve.  The next morning, she will have to clean the dispenser and get the blue ice in the freezer for use later in the day.  I am comfortable enough that the cold wet food will survive the few hours left out in the evening, with the extra help of the blue ice (even though it's pretty tiny). 

My husband thinks that the third meal, and all the extra work involved, is not necessary for the few days that we are gone.  Clearly the cats will live if they get fed their same total food, twice a day.  And he's right.  But my mother-in-law is willing, so that's the current plan. 

As for the feeding amount for your two hungry boys, I portion out 1.7 ounces each meal for my little girl.  She then looks at me with doe eyes while licking her chops.  I give her another couple pieces of meat or spoons of raw ground.  She's probably getting closer to 6 ounces a day, more than she should based on the 2-4% rule.   I'm keeping a close watch on her waist line, but it's hard to say no when I know she's about to tear up and down the house a few times, getting a lot of exercise.