EZ complete

[Catmom1234567890]

Hi guys now that we parted with Hills ZD, we are doing the novel protein. We are going to start with canned duck for 6 weeks after that homemade raw duck with completer.

I got a sample of EZ premix but it has chicken liver. So if I mix raw duck with EZ, is it no longer novel?

 

[daftcat75]

That is correct. EZ is easy. But unfortunately, it counts as both chicken and pork proteins (pancreas extract.) Ooof! It also has green-lipped mussels which counts as a fish protein. It's definitely not a friendly food for food trials. I would look at Alnutrin with eggshell calcium instead. That has a requirement to add your own liver. If you can't find fresh or frozen duck liver, you can use freeze-dried duck liver at about 1/3 the called for weight. Check the dog treats and dog training section for freeze-dried duck liver treats. Make certain duck liver is the only ingredient and that's good to use in place of fresh (at 1/3 the amount--there's a calculation but it always seems to come out to about 30% when I have run through it. So I've stopped explaining the calculation.)

 

[daftcat75]

Alnutrin with eggshell calcium
A Guide To A Balanced, Homemade Cat Food - Alnutrin Supplements

They have a samples program
Know What You Feed Your Cat - Alnutrin Supplements - Free Samples

Duck liver treats you can use in place of fresh or frozen duck liver
STEWART PRO-TREAT Duck Liver Freeze-Dried Raw Dog Treats, 3-oz tub - Chewy.com

 

[Catmom1234567890]

Thank you, I have used alnutrin and tC feline with my late kitty. But now EZ came along so I thought I don’t have to deal with raw liver. Guess EZ is not easy.

I have started Rawz duck, only questionable ingredient would be salmon oil and fan* something seed used as a thickener. I’ve heard salmon oil can have protein depending on manufacture process. The seed, I have no idea if she would be allergic to it because I cannot introduce only the seed by itself to test

 

[daftcat75]

Fenugreek seed. I don't know if there's any easy way to tell if she's allergic to that or not because it's not found in any other foods. I wouldn't try to microdose her with it because you have no idea how much is used or how it is prepared. You could send Rawz an email. They might have more information they can share on how they came to choose fenugreek seeds for their binder and if any studies have been done with fenugreek seeds compared to other binders in cat food.

Salmon oil can have salmon protein in cheaply made oil. I have confidence that Rawz is not sourcing cheaply made oil. For all the effort they go to keep their single protein foods truly single protein (right down to matching proteins in flavors and broths), I would be very surprised if they let it all unravel on cheap salmon oil. This is an easy one to test. Make a batch of Alnutrin without salmon oil. Go pick up a high quality salmon oil like Grizzly brand and test her with and without a half pump of the salmon oil. Krista, who was reactive to salmon protein, did not have issues with salmon oil. Green-lipped mussels, however, was a whole other story with her. Disastrous blowouts in the litter box.

 

[Catmom1234567890]

Cat Food: What to Feed & What to Avoid - Happy Cats Haven. All low and high-end cat food contains at least one or more of the products to avoid. I also belong to raw feeding for IBD cats on FB and they said egg yolk and chicken liver. green lip mussels are not allergenic? They seem to correlate that cooked meat as contributing to gut dysbiosis and inflammation rather than specific protein.

 

[daftcat75]

They are a raw feeding group. Of course they will have a bias against cooked meat. But it's not the proteins themselves that do the damage. It's the other nonsense ingredients like grains and starches, fruits and vegetables, gums and thickeners, etc that cause gut dysbiosis, inflammation, and gut lining changes that allow the immune system to come into contact with food proteins that would otherwise remain in the gut where they belong until they have been broken down into component amino acids that are actively transported across the gut membrane. The immune system keys in on proteins rather than carbs or fat.

In other words, other nonsense in cat food breaks open the barn door in the gut. The sheriff (immune system) is only able to round up the protein. The protein gets the blame. That said, until you eliminate the other hooligans who keep busting the barn door open, whichever protein, even novel proteins, has the possibility of becoming his next trigger protein. Because chicken and fish are the most common food proteins, these are usually the first to get crossed off the menu. The immune system has already seen these proteins enough times to become reactive (as you can see in the visible butt and gut episodes.)

Any protein, including novel proteins, can become allergenic through this process. That's why it is of vital importance to control the inflammation and heal his gut before you burn through all the proteins. Chicken liver and egg yolk are also common cat food ingredients in many recipes. It is possible that these are reactive now too. If he is indeed reactive to egg yolk, I have no idea where to go from here. Krista seemed like she might be. I would make homemade leaving out the egg yolk. But that wasn't the only food she was getting. And I was never comfortable about making that her full time food for that reason.

 

[Catmom1234567890]

It is not the protein that causes inflammation even though 99% vets say it is. What causes inflammation is the other nonsense stuff in the food that disrupts the gut dysbiosis and changes the gut lining and comes in contact with protein molecule and that sets off the fire. I guess it is like contact dermatitis in the gut. I asked this question to my vet and I was told it is 100% protein that causes inflammation. It is imperative to heal the gut first or else even the novel protein can become a source of allergy.

My question is how can we heal the gut first before starting on novel protein. I DON'T want to blow out all the protein choices. Thank you for explaining this in easy non-medical jargon. Everything is making more sense now.

 

[daftcat75]

It is not the protein that causes inflammation even though 99% vets say it is. What causes inflammation is the other nonsense stuff in the food that disrupts the gut dysbiosis and changes the gut lining and comes in contact with protein molecule and that sets off the fire. I guess it is like contact dermatitis in the gut. I asked this question to my vet and I was told it is 100% protein that causes inflammation. It is imperative to heal the gut first or else even the novel protein can become a source of allergy.

My question is how can we heal the gut first before starting on novel protein. I DON'T want to blow out all the protein choices. Thank you for explaining this in easy non-medical jargon. Everything is making more sense now.

You can't heal the gut before starting on a novel protein. But the thought is that the novel protein won't be reactive yet. If the other triggers (the nonsense ingredients) have been removed, the thought is that the combination of not feeding a reactive protein and not continuing to bust open the door with the triggers, you may still see flare ups as his gut is still inflamed. But with time, those should go down.

Vitality Science has some supplements that will actively help in the gut healing process. However, these weren't very popular with Krista. Some of them made matters worse. And most of the time it was just one more variable, one more question mark when trying to figure out her triggers.

Vitality Science | Natural Remedies For Dogs And Cats

 

[Catmom1234567890]

Thank you for recommending Rawz. I will try Rawz for few weeks before making my own food. We adopted Jessica just a year ago and she is around 3-5 years of age. I was told she ate mostly Wellness chicken dry and wet food. When she came home to us, we started feeding her lamb, rabbit, and pork and we cut out the dry food. Do you think her IBD is because of new food introduction ? It seemed like she was doing ok prior to coming home to us. We feel like we are the blame for her disease by changing her diet?

 

[daftcat75]

IBD isn't caused by the proteins. It is the other ingredients that irritate, inflame, and change the gut lining. The protein gets the blame because the immune system keys in on proteins, not fat or carbs. Although I haven't sat down with the reading like I would like to, it is my understanding that it is generally a starchy ingredient that feeds the wrong gut bacteria. This in turn causes the gut membrane changes that allows undigested or partially digested protein to be exposed to the immune system. Sugar (carbs) break open the barn door. The protein gets the blame because the immune system couldn't give a flip about starches and fats.

This also presents an interesting dilemma. If you switched her away from chicken before her IBD started to present, there's a decent chance that chicken is not a forbidden protein for her. The easiest test for this would be to pick up some Rawz in the chicken flavor and introduce a small guest star meal (1/4 portion.) Wait a poop before making any adjustments. If she keeps it down, if it doesn't make matters worse, try 1/2 portion at the next guest star meal. Wait another poop. Keep proceeding like this until you have that single meal converted to chicken. Give it a week with a single chicken meal plus rabbit for the other meals. If she's reactive to chicken, she'll likely have already reacted by now. If after that week that she's still doing alright with the single chicken meal, it's up to you. But I would go ahead and try converting another meal. Ideally, if she can eat chicken, I would save rabbit as a backup protein. I recommend converting only one meal because it is easier to unwind if it doesn't work out than if you had converted all her meals at once.

You could also try the EZ Complete. But that's got a lot more variables than the chicken Rawz. If she reacts to the EZ, was it the chicken liver, the pork pancreas, the egg yolk, or the green lipped mussels?

 

[Catmom1234567890]

She doesn't get explosive diarrhea like other IBD kitties. She had normal poop with chicken, lamb, pork and rabbit prior to IBD. My theory why her stomach lining changed and contributed to IBD might be that massive amount of hair that was sitting in her stomach for very long time. She had almost half sandwich zip bag full of hair when it was retrieved.

 

[daftcat75]

She doesn't get explosive diarrhea like other IBD kitties. She had normal poop with chicken, lamb, pork and rabbit prior to IBD. My theory why her stomach lining changed and contributed to IBD might be that massive amount of hair that was sitting in her stomach for very long time. She had almost half sandwich zip bag full of hair when it was retrieved.

Maybe. Or it could have been any number of ingredients in the food you were feeding. Does her IBD present as vomiting then? Krista's IBD mostly presented as vomiting. Her lymphoma mostly presented as diarrhea. That should have been simple enough to see the change. Except that she also had a clostridium infection (gut bug) that had her pooping liquid for a month. When her diarrhea returned, my first thought was that it was a return of the clostridium.

So where is she at now? Forgive me for not keeping all the IBD kitties straight here. Is she having poop issues now or is she a barfer? Has it calmed down any since you started Rawz?

 

[Catmom1234567890]

We didn't know she had IBD until she started throwing up more hairballs and refused food. Her poop have been normal, no diarrhea or occasional constipation. She did not have chronic vomiting. That is why we didn't suspect IBD. After endoscopy to remove hair(total failure) and subsequent abdominal surgery, I would say she is more towards constipation.

Her explosive diarrhea came from Hills ZD. Prior to ZD, normal poop. Now, we are doing Rawz( day 3) so far no diarrhea but constipation is still there. No barf, she is bald so there is no more hairball to barf.

Her IBD is different than most cats as she did not have chronic diarrhea or vomiting. Only hairball barfs when things are plugged up.

 

[daftcat75]

So when they opened her up to remove the hair, that's when they took a full thickness biopsy and said, "this is IBD"? How long ago was this? I wonder if she wasn't simply inflamed from being backed up with hair. I don't know if simple inflammation looks any different from IBD in a biopsy.

Constipation can be helped with pumpkin, egg yolk, or adding additional fat to her diet. The easiest additional fat to add would be fish oil or salmon oil. (If you were making homemade, then you would add a little extra organ meats.) I like the Grizzly brand of salmon oil where you can pump out the oil. I wouldn't give it with every meal. But a few times a week should be enough to both help with inflammation and get things moving. Fat can bind hair and make things worse. But if she's been shaved down or picked herself bald then you shouldn't have to worry about that. Egg yolk would be the fix for that. The lecithin in the egg yolk would help dissolve hair bound in fat.

 

[Catmom1234567890]

The biopsy was done when they tried to retrieve hair with endoscope. This was last September. That is what my theory is, simply inflamed from being backed up but the biopsy report said something about eosinophilic. That is the copy of biopsy report. If you can explain this in plain simple English ,that would help us. The vet told us all that means is she has IBD

 

[lisahe]

Unfortunately, I can't translate that biopsy report for you but this discussion reminds me of vet Gary Norsworthy's research on hairballs and IBD. There's a short summary on hairballs here that includes a link to a brief article by Norsworthy. There's lots more online.

No matter what's going on, the ingredients daftcat75 mentioned -- pumpkin, egg yolk, and fish oil -- could be helpful in limiting hairballs and/or constipation. We feed them to our cats: one tends to get constipated and the other tends to gather fur. The tips in that brief vet summary I linked to also mention fiber and Vaseline, which I occasionally give to our fluffier cat, the one who seems to collect fur in her gut at certain times of the year. (Like now!) She gets brushed daily, too, but (for better or worse) she enjoys the Vaseline far more.

I also couldn't agree more with daftcat75 about the feeding suggestions, particularly keeping carbs and irritants down. And, generally, keeping recipes as simple as possible, something that's harder and harder to do with canned foods because pet food companies keep adding new thickeners. The current favorite seems to be tapioca, which can add lots of carbs but and seems to be popping up constantly! And don't even get me started on pea-based ingredients.

To get back to the original question -- EZ -- our fluffy cat can't eat EZ food because of the mussels. Unfortunately, it took me months to figure that out since her symptom (barfing a few hours after the daily EZ meal) came and went.

 

[Catmom1234567890]

Yes, after back to back hair obstructions, she is completely shaved down.

We are giving her egg yolk powder, Capilex, occasional fiber and will be adding pure high quality salmon oil to manage hairball. Our vet and most vets don't explain well why cats get IBD. Most seem to address the symptoms of IBD rather than treating the root cause. .

It seems like most vets focus on hydrolyzed protein even though the other nonsense stuff in the food is what is disrupting the gut flora and triggering protein inflammation.

I've seen how quickly IBD progress to other illness so I want to stay on top of it. Thank you for much for your input. I also want to thank daftcat75 for explaining IBD in plain English

 

[daftcat75]

Yes, after back to back hair obstructions, she is completely shaved down.

We are giving her egg yolk powder, Capilex, occasional fiber and will be adding pure high quality salmon oil to manage hairball. Our vet and most vets don't explain well why cats get IBD. Most seem to address the symptoms of IBD rather than treating the root cause.View attachment 401828.

It seems like most vets focus on hydrolyzed protein even though the other nonsense stuff in the food is what is disrupting the gut flora and triggering protein inflammation.

I've seen how quickly IBD progress to other illness so I want to stay on top of it. Thank you for much for your input. I also want to thank daftcat75 for explaining IBD in plain English

Look at the floof! I sure hope you get her hairball/constipation managed to the point that she can grow back her lovely coat.

Based on her age and lack of other symptoms, I'm not convinced this is actually IBD. I bet if I swallowed enough hair, my insides would become inflamed and my immune system would want to see if it could help out. That's what I read from that report.

Bolding emphasis is my interpretation

The tissue specimens show a chronic gastroenteritis with an eosinophilic component inflammation with a side of immune cells and an allergic/hypersensitivity process it might be an allergic response or IBD or it could be IBD are primary differentials. Etiologic agents are not identified in the examined sections. don't know what caused this Moderate numbers of intraepithelial lymphocytes in the duodenum are most likely a reactive population given the relatively young age of this cat (3 years). in other words, most likely not IBD at her age

It could be that there are food ingredients she is sensitive to. You could try allergy testing. But I've heard the tests can be expensive and the results not entirely reliable. I haven't looked much into this.

Since she's only been on the new food for a few days, just keep doing what you're doing. If there was a food ingredient she was reacting to, it could take a few weeks to see an improvement in her motility (pooping schedule) as leftover inflammation resolves.

 

[lisahe]

What a beautiful cat!

I generally agree with daftcat75 on just about everything... including that I'm also not convinced your cat has IBD. (What is your cat's name, C Catmom1234567890 ? Did I ask that on another thread and forget?) It's partly her age. And partly that the fur thing. I guess I say that because of Edwina, who also ingests a lot of fur and is a barfer (albeit mostly bile, she's a rescue who's still nervous about her food) but rarely brings up a real fur ball.

I've thought of our cats as "pre-IBD" ever since we adopted them and figured out (very quickly) that potato made Edwina gassy and barfy. She also can't eat agar-agar or green-lipped mussels. And we avoid carrageenan, grains, and all legumes. Plus fruits and carby vegetables.

Since she's only been on the new food for a few days, just keep doing what you're doing. If there was a food ingredient she was reacting to, it could take a few weeks to see an improvement in her motility (pooping schedule) as leftover inflammation resolves.

I agree with this, too! But while you're waiting, look into as many simple recipes (for supplements and/or commercial foods) as you can. It's always good to know what's available. Also, if you're not already keeping an incident and menu log, this might be a good time to start. That's what helped me figure out Edwina's problem with those cursed mussels!