Echo might have IBD - Feeling a bit lost...

[Time 2 Recognize]

I've always fed her the "healthy" brands. Tiki, Rawz (though that was a couple years ago), Hound and Gatos, Pure Vita and Instinct limited. The last year or so has been Tiki After Dark varieties along with Hound and Gatos. Sometimes the Turkey, sometimes the Lamb. Three weeks ago it started with mucus stool. Then Hairball vomit multiple times in a weeks span. Then refusal to eat for 2-3 days (I force fed the last day). Then hospitalization for 3 days with a nasal tube. I went to vets from day 2 of symptoms onset, but no one felt it was serious until she stopped eating.

I'll link the test results I have thus far. CBC Bloodwork (which was after not eating/drinking for close to 24 hours), Xray, Ultrasound. She also had GI Panel, Spec fPL and fecal PCR but I have not received those yet, just doctors notes. I'll include a pic. She had inflammation in the small intestines and one near by node.

I'm trying to understand what happened.... Not to mention what to feed her?? We're on day 3 of baby food, Probiotics and slippery elm bark syrup. Yesterday her stool normalized a bit, has some formed logs after mucus. This morning was just mucus with a hair wad. Hair is passing through though, at least. Been giving her hairball gel.

Most of the vets have mentioned IBD or Lymphoma. I've had a lot of trouble getting in touch with the vets since she's been home. Though in all fairness I didn't try yesterday. Of course I try today, and the vet at the clinic that oversaw the ultrasound and other tests isn't back in until Thursday. The hospital treated her with Metronidazole, Panacur, nasal tube and pain meds.

One vet said he wouldn't rule out a partial blockage of hair caused all this. Could a partial blockage of hair cause inflammation like this? Hair was noted in the inflamed area, but the vets at that clinic felt it could be ruled out as an issue or cause. To my knowledge, she didn't pass that hair until she was home several days later and the metronidazole and liquid diarrhea that accompanied it was stopped. I also can't definitely say she didn't ingest something. If she did, I'm not sure what it would be other than a random click bug the night before it all started.
There's been mention of allergies as well.

I plan to start transitioning her to regular food (likely rawz non-chicken to be safe? Or home cooked if I can get EZ Complete sometime soon) tomorrow or the next day. But frankly, don't know if that's the right choice either. She started having mucus-y stool again two days ago and I just don't know what to do, really or how to heal her digestion.

Just wondering if anyone has an IBD kitty story like this, or i dunno. Feels like we don't have a regular vet we can count on right now also, which is a bit scary.

 

[Margot Lane]

Encourage you to read Daftcat’s threads on this, though he has cautioned me that what is good for his cats are not necessarily designed for all! You are not alone. Just type IBD into the TCS search engine. Would also encourage you to keep on looking for a vet you like and trust, as that is so vital for your peace of mind!

 

[Time 2 Recognize]

Encourage you to read Daftcat’s threads on this, though he has cautioned me that what is good for his cats are not necessarily designed for all! You are not alone. Just type IBD into the TCS search engine. Would also encourage you to keep on looking for a vet you like and trust, as that is so vital for your peace of mind!

I will search for this thank you! It's so tough. Right now I dont even know if she has IBD, or if this was an episode caused by something else.
Absolutely, will keep searching for a vet. I have two more possibilities, but dont want to stress out my lady toting her around for exams after all she went through recently. But they are highly reviewed so. I'm going to hope it'd be worth it. I'm also trying to still see what her original vet thinks. Her approach is more holistic. While the second clinic we went to is very textbook traditional.

 

[daftcat75]

I’ve done IBD with alternative treatments with my last cat and I’m trying a more traditional treatment plan with my current cat. Sadly, her IBD started from nearly day one and may have been an unmentioned reason for her owner surrender.

All I can really say for sure is that every case and every cat is different.

If any of the vets you’re talking with are talking steroids, you make sure you get a vet who will stay involved and call you back in a timely fashion. You don’t want a vet who simply subscribes to a pred and pray approach.

EZ Complete has pork pancreas and green lipped mussels—two ingredients that don’t agree with every cat. If things get worse with the EZ, try another powder instead like Alnutrin. You can use freeze dried liver in place of fresh at 1/3 the called for amount if you can’t or don’t want to source fresh liver.

Because Echo had metronidazole, I highly recommend the Gut Maintenance Protocol from AnimalBiome. Metro kills good bacteria and doesn’t do anything for E. coli. Cats naturally have some E. coli in their gut and it’s not a problem. But when you kill good bacteria strains, you open the door for bad strains like E. coli to fill the void. And E. coli feeds on dead epithelial cells in the gut. Inflammation feeds more inflammation. AnimalBiome’s GMP has both sacchromyces boulardii which should help form the stools and kill the E. coli and it also contains a bacteriophage (eats bacteria) that will specifically target E. coli.

If you can pill her daily, you may also want to look into their Gut Restore Supplement. If she took metro, her gut will be imbalanced. But you can also buy a Gut Health Test if you want to see how imbalanced and also get some targeted recommendations. If you can’t pill her, this is not a medicine that can be opened in her food or syringed into her mouth. The capsule protects the contents on the journey through her stomach where they would ordinarily be destroyed. Also, that’s dried poop from carefully screened healthy donor cats in those pills. She’s not going to appreciate that mixed into her food even if it could survive the transit to her gut without the capsule coating.

All Products

Gut bacteria plays a big role in the disease process and presumably plays a big role in its recovery too. AnimalBiome, the company and their products, is newer than most vet’s education. Don’t be surprised if your docs either never heard of them or treat them with skepticism. I am treating Betty’s gut microbiome like another organ and another piece of her treatment. I am in contact with the AnimalBiome team if I have questions. Since Betty started the Gut Restore pills, I have seen an improvement in her appetite, reduction of nausea, better stools, and a longer interval between hairballs.

But honestly, it wasn’t until she also started prednisilone that she finally got the hairball relief she needed. Now we’re at the other end of this tapering off her pred dose looking for the lowest effective dose. I would have hoped that would have been zero after some time on them to heal. But it’s looking like, for now, she will need to remain on at least some pred. I do plan on trying homemade with her at some point. But she didn’t seem keen on a diet change and she doesn’t appear to be food reactive anyway.

If you can find an internal medicine specialist to consult with, that will be your best bet to have someone get involved and stay involved.

 

[Time 2 Recognize]

daftcat75 ! I was reading through some of your threads last night. I so appreciate you commenting and giving advice on this <3

I’ve done IBD with alternative treatments with my last cat and I’m trying a more traditional treatment plan with my current cat. Sadly, her IBD started from nearly day one and may have been an unmentioned reason for her owner surrender.

Are you going the more traditional route this time because with the last kitty you felt it didn't really work as well as traditional could? I hate the idea of having my young lady on pred for long term. They haven't advised that quite yet, but I'm sure it's coming.

If any of the vets you’re talking with are talking steroids, you make sure you get a vet who will stay involved and call you back in a timely fashion. You don’t want a vet who simply subscribes to a pred and pray approach.

This is my major problem. Case in point: I've been trying since end of last week to get feedback on the results for her Fecal PCR, Spec fPL and GI Panel. They said results would come early this week. Ok, I understand these tests have to be sent way out and take time. But now this week, the vet at this 2nd local clinic is out until tomorrow. Except I called this morning to see if I could at least have the results sent over to me in the meantime, and now that vet is out until Friday (multi vet practice). Another one is supposed to call me to go over the results, but I still haven't been sent them either way.

The OTHER local vet has been so hard to get in touch with through all this, thus why I went to a different clinic when I felt Echo was sliding downhill in fast order. Still, she is more holistic and has been the vet seeing Echo since she was a kitten so I call yesterday to make sure they had all the records from clinic 2 as well as hospital and to ask for the vets opinion when she got the chance to look them over. They didn't have them all so, I sent the rest. Didn't hear anything. Call today, and they're out of office until tomorrow. Single vet practice, so I understand it's probably a personal thing came up, but this is a constant problem.

I don't really have a reliable vet.

The only feline only vet in my area who all the locals rave about once lied to me about giving my then 2yr old Echo steroids. Said it was "more of an antihistamine". Echo had a bad reaction and when I called them after getting home, he lied again and said it was a B12 shot. Meanwhile the invoice I paid listed 2 steroids were given to her and she was having all the steroid reactions of hyperventilating and rapid heart rate, aggression etc. She ended up ripping hair out from the injection site as well.

It's also because of this experience + reading on long term steroid issues that I really really hope I can resolve Echo's issues with diet. This all just came out of nowhere Normal poops, great appetite, (maybe a touch constipated I'm not certain now) and then suddenly all these issues within a week or so...

So it's tough. I'm grateful that the ER we went to was really wonderful. If I could hire one of them to be Echo's vet I would! lol. Long way of saying that I'm still searching for someone I can trust and can safely oversee whatever route we go with Echo. Which just adds to the stress a lot...

EZ Complete has pork pancreas and green lipped mussels—two ingredients that don’t agree with every cat. If things get worse with the EZ, try another powder instead like Alnutrin. You can use freeze dried liver in place of fresh at 1/3 the called for amount if you can’t or don’t want to source fresh liver.

Yes, I've read for some kitties this can pose an issue and will see about a sample size instead of a full bag...Alnutrin as back up. I enjoy liver myself so not an issue, and also usually have freeze dried for Echo's array of treat options.

Thank you SO MUCH for all the info about AnimalBiome. I'm not sure Echo's insurance will cover the cost of that test, but if I can get a hold of my holistic-inclined vet and perhaps get her on board, maybe she can work something into an invoice and it can be covered that way...Either way, sounds important to do so will see about doing that and getting those supplements. She's on Visbiome vet right now, and S Boulardii. Though I'm still not sure if she's mostly got diarrhea or constipation issue right now. She had a gooey cow patty poo this morning, after barely goo-pooing yesterday, but has also gone to her box, strained and hopped out with no result. Followed by aggravated booty licks.

 

[daftcat75]

I went with a more alternative approach with Krista because she was my first IBD kitty and I thought maybe I could manage it with diet and supplements. I had read about those steroids side effects and it scared me away from trying them, at first. I ultimately ended up with steroids and chemo with her when diet and supplements stopped working. But boy I put us both through so much grief before I gave in to steroids. My regret with Krista wasn’t that we didn’t start meds sooner. It was doing it without a specialist. Her regular vet was just too busy. I also felt like he was out of his depth when she failed to achieve a complete remission. His response was more pred. It turned out her incomplete remission was my “devil’s bargain” of wrapping her nightly pred pill in a trigger food (fish flakes) to get her to eat it. When we switched to transdermal pred and removed the nightly trigger, she finally achieved remission. Too little, too late. Such a small cat (she went from 9 to 4 lbs) being on such a high dose (7.5 mg) of pred for so long took its toll and she would succumb to a bladder infection the next month.

When Betty’s persistent hairballs landed us in the ER a second time (they would tear her up all day and when she got down to pink spits, that was an ER visit), I vowed to get a specialist on her case. And since I was paying all that money for the specialist and the tests (ultrasound and endoscopy), when it became clear that supplements alone would not control her hairballs, I gave in and decided to give steroids a try. Betty is a different cat. She’s younger. She doesn’t seem to be food reactive. And the house of cards I was trying to hold up with supplements wasn’t a very good foundation. I couldn’t keep ignoring the IBD diagnosis despite it being, “only hairballs.” The pred has been a blessing. She’s been hairball-free since early August. I got her off the Pepcid and mirtazapine that she was taking before the pred. We’ve tapered twice. We should have been further along by now but I wanted to leave her at the higher dose of pred long enough to wean her off the mirtazapine, Pepcid, and ondansetron, and also attempt a diet change. Her appetite cratered without the ondansetron. Doc agreed that we can leave that and revisit it later. The diet change also didn’t work. Even with all that pred, she lost interest in the new food. I switched her back to the junky Hills I/D chicken stew she loves, and finally we proceeded to the first step down about two or three weeks later than planned. The second interval went smoothly without a hitch. This latest step down to 2.5 mg (half the initial dose) is looking a little more challenging. Her appetite dropped off and where she used to eat some meals in one go, she now leaves 50% remainders on first pass. Sometimes she finishes those remainders on subsequent passes before the next meal. Sometimes she doesn’t. Her calories dropped off by about 15 to 20%. They also surged during the higher doses of pred. So she’s about where she was before pred, but without the Pepcid and mirtazapine. And so far, no hairballs.

Waiting on doc callback to discuss next steps. I don’t want to backtrack her pred dose. I don’t think she needs as many calories as she was eating during the higher doses. I also don’t want to use steroids as an appetite stimulant. She’s too young to be left on a higher dose the rest of her life. I’m going to advocate for leaving her at this half dose longer while revisiting other health concerns I had back burnered to pred like her teeth. I adopted her in January. Her very first vet and every after have told me that she needs a cleaning and might have a bad tooth in the back. All this hairball and pred business quickly took over. Her teeth visit was canceled because of a pink spits visit to the ER. It will be bittersweet if her weak appetite is a correctable dental issue. Frustrating because we could have addressed this months ago. But a relief all the same if her appetite improves and of course if she’s no longer eating in silent pain.

Maybe we can also try the diet change again. In any case, she’s not losing weight yet. So I’m not that concerned about her calorie reduction. She was getting a little “fluffy” (her decoy belly aka primordial pouch was getting to be less decoy. ) on the higher doses of pred.

I would like to try homemade or raw with Betty. But I don’t want to do raw while she’s taking pred. I think her stomach acid would probably remain a good first line or defense. But I don’t want to argue with the specialist anymore. So that leaves homemade cooked. But I don’t eat meat myself. It’s been 20 years since I cooked a bird. I wouldn’t even know where to start.

 

[Margot Lane]

I know someone that feeds their clowder of (at the moment) roughly 17 strays (some indoor some not) raw & in all the many years she’s done so not one has had IBD. She says she couldn’t afford the vet bills so she does her utmost to keep the gang healthy & mighty via diet.

 

[daftcat75]

I know someone that feeds their clowder of (at the moment) roughly 17 strays (some indoor some not) raw & in all the many years she’s done so not one has had IBD. She says she couldn’t afford the vet bills so she does her utmost to keep the gang healthy & mighty via diet.

I tried raw with Betty before pred. She never liked it enough. We tried mostly commercial. I tried a little chicken sashimi with her and she wasn’t impressed. Krista loved the sashimi! I enjoyed making raw for Krista and seeing how well it treated her.

Betty likes her junk food: Hills I/D chicken and vegetable stew. Before that Fancy Feast. And before that, her AnomalBiome report strongly suggests a kibble addict. I suspect that she would enjoy EZ Complete. I am just so hesitant to try it with her remembering the problems that Krista had with it. I’ve also been holding off wanting to see how far she can go on pred alone before dragging her along at higher doses through too many unsuccessful diet changes. If she’s going to be fussy despite the pred, I’d rather she be picky at half the pred. I also want to try Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers with her. This is also a junky food. But it looks less junky than Hills while providing higher protein and fewer carbs. It’s a step up rather than a revolutionary change. Even if I only feed one meal a day of this. That dilutes the junky I/D by that much.

 

[Time 2 Recognize]

I went with a more alternative approach with Krista because she was my first IBD kitty and I thought maybe I could manage it with diet and supplements. I had read about those steroids side effects and it scared me away from trying them, at first. I ultimately ended up with steroids and chemo with her when diet and supplements stopped working. But boy I put us both through so much grief before I gave in to steroids. My regret with Krista wasn’t that we didn’t start meds sooner. It was doing it without a specialist. Her regular vet was just too busy. I also felt like he was out of his depth when she failed to achieve a complete remission. His response was more pred. It turned out her incomplete remission was my “devil’s bargain” of wrapping her nightly pred pill in a trigger food (fish flakes) to get her to eat it. When we switched to transdermal pred and removed the nightly trigger, she finally achieved remission. Too little, too late. Such a small cat (she went from 9 to 4 lbs) being on such a high dose (7.5 mg) of pred for so long took its toll and she would succumb to a bladder infection the next month.

I'm so sorry about Krista. Is she the pretty calico lady in your profile pic? Beautiful lady!
I still have to go through and sift around for an IM specialist. I'm looking at cornell. One was recommended to me by a vet I consulted during all this with Echo, but I still want to comb through and see if another at Cornell might be best fit. Preferably one who is somewhat knowledgable about the microbiome and intestinal health.

How did you identify the trigger foods? Prior to all this, Echo hasn't had bouts of diarrhea or frequent hairballs. Maybe a handful of hairball vomits in the past year. But in hindsight, most of those have been on the recent side leading up to things going totally haywire. She had maybe 2 over the summer, then the last couple weeks prior to the hospital had 3 in a week and a half. The only trigger prior to her refusal to eat at all was Beef + Lamb Nulo. She's had lamb in the last many months without change or issue. Beef had been a while. So I'm scared of beef now lol!

Her poops since home are still ooey-gooey-pooeys. Doing S Boulardii + Visbiome and trying to stick with turkey or pork or rabbit (may be tried out tomorrow). But hair is passing through, at least. I just started incorporating Rawz turkey pate into her baby food yesterday so, hopefully real food helps.

When Betty’s persistent hairballs landed us in the ER a second time (they would tear her up all day and when she got down to pink spits, that was an ER visit), I vowed to get a specialist on her case. And since I was paying all that money for the specialist and the tests (ultrasound and endoscopy), when it became clear that supplements alone would not control her hairballs, I gave in and decided to give steroids a try. Betty is a different cat. She’s younger. She doesn’t seem to be food reactive. And the house of cards I was trying to hold up with supplements wasn’t a very good foundation. I couldn’t keep ignoring the IBD diagnosis despite it being, “only hairballs.” The pred has been a blessing. She’s been hairball-free since early August.

I'm wondering if you've heard of Adored Beast? They have two products that have been recommended to me by a facebook group called Raw Feeding for IBD cats. Gut Sooth and Healthy Gut. To be completely honest, I don't find the group the most friendly...responses are curt and often with little explanation but, there's some great info on there. Anyway, I've ordered them but haven't gotten them yet.

The second interval went smoothly without a hitch. This latest step down to 2.5 mg (half the initial dose) is looking a little more challenging. Her appetite dropped off and where she used to eat some meals in one go, she now leaves 50% remainders on first pass. Sometimes she finishes those remainders on subsequent passes before the next meal. Sometimes she doesn’t. Her calories dropped off by about 15 to 20%. They also surged during the higher doses of pred. So she’s about where she was before pred, but without the Pepcid and mirtazapine. And so far, no hairballs.

Her teeth visit was canceled because of a pink spits visit to the ER. It will be bittersweet if her weak appetite is a correctable dental issue. Frustrating because we could have addressed this months ago. But a relief all the same if her appetite improves and of course if she’s no longer eating in silent pain.

It would be so frustrating if that was a main player in her inappetence, but if it was and can be resolved with dental work that would be awesome! So I will hope it's something more easily (relatively) addressable for Betty White.

I would like to try homemade or raw with Betty. But I don’t want to do raw while she’s taking pred. I think her stomach acid would probably remain a good first line or defense. But I don’t want to argue with the specialist anymore. So that leaves homemade cooked. But I don’t eat meat myself. It’s been 20 years since I cooked a bird. I wouldn’t even know where to start.

Yea I also am so interested in raw, but a concern I have is should we need to go to a vet and they are super against it, all things will be blamed on it, no guidance or support there. Or I will mess up something! I actually think part of where I messed up with Echo the last few months is using a timed, overnight feeder to dispense wet food. I think having the morning meal sitting in there for 8 hours was a big mistake and this was for the last few months. Ashamed to admit it honestly. Anyways, it does seem there are so many who see huge huge benefits to raw.
catinfo.org, she talks about one cat that took months to transition off of kibble to canned, to raw (I think it was on that site, possibly another. Been looking at so many!).

 

[daftcat75]

Yes. Krista was my tortie or calico. I don’t know the difference. She was gorgeous. So confident and so friendly. She didn’t like other cats. But there wasn’t a human who walked through the door that she didn’t try to instantly befriend. She had a lot of dog about her. If the dog was allowed on the counter…

I have a lot of media of her here:
https://thecatsite.com/media/albums/krista-public.331941/

The trouble with food triggers is that they aren’t always protein. Sometimes it’s the carbs, veggies, gums, or something like green lipped mussels. It sounds like a healthy joint-supporting ingredient. But for cats who are sensitive to it, it can rip right through them. Xanthan gum is another unexpected trigger. It makes smooth foods smooth. And for those sensitive to it, it makes their poops smooth too. I tried the Tiki Cat Velvet Mousse with Krista and we call that episode The Moussening. Mousse in, mousse out. I think I gave her a Churo treat stick and same thing. Gave her another dry treat that had xanthan gum in it and that produced a goo poo too. That’s how I figured it was the xanthan gum. Turns out I’m also sensitive to xanthan gum. Figured that one out with cream cheese. I bought a different brand and I thought Krista had used the toilet. Oh xanthan gum. Looks like we’re gut twins there.

Aside from the xanthan gum, Krista was mostly a barfer. That made it easier to figure out foods that didn’t agree with her. Eventually we found Rawz (truly limited ingredient no-nonsense single protein pates and no gums!) and Rad Cat (a wildly popular boneless commercial raw that was shut down by malicious neglect from the USDA inspectors that mishandled test samples and results. ) Never did find another like it that Krista enjoyed and it treated her so well. I made homemade raw with her with rabbit meat. She did enjoy that. But that was super expensive. Honestly, it came out to about $70 a pound! I bought two whole fryer rabbits just for the organs and the leg meat. Then I would give the rest of the carcass to a couple beertender friends at the taproom I drink at and I would drink for free on rabbit drop nights. That would bring her food cost down to $50/lb. It was obviously more a treat food than something she got for all her meals. I made it her medicine reward until we started chemo. Back then I was less concerned with mixing raw and pred. Especially since it was only a treat portion. I also used to make her turkey raw before turkey seemed to bother her. In retrospect, that may have been when her IBD progressed to lymphoma and that it wasn’t the turkey but the couple of weeks of tuna to get her through a “remaining mouth extraction”—my term: her mouth was hardly full by the time I finally got a dentist to take the last of them before tooth resorption did it for her. Krista had a lot going on and sometimes I had to break some rules to get her through a rough spot or three or five. And they eventually caught up to her.

With Betty, she only ever has hairballs. And the very rare regurgitation that has nothing to do with her gut. She does not appear to be food reactive. I can’t feed her something and get a barf a few hours later and say, “well, I guess that one doesn’t work.” In Betty’s case, if I feed her something and she eats it and enough of it, that’s good enough for me. I can’t wait two or three weeks to see if it’s going to cause a hairball. Right now, she loves her junky Hills I/D chicken and vegetable stew they sent us home with after one ER visit. It was the first time since I had her that she actually tore into her food and ate a good amount in one pass. Before that, I would open a couple of cans on a plate and the ones that she ate from by the end of a 12 hour shift is what I would set out again and hope for the best. We’re kind of back to that again with this latest taper level of pred. But she still loves her I/D more than anything I tried to offer her at even higher levels of pred. And she does get through a portion before the end of a meal shift. Then I open another can and plate half and feed the other half to the disposal because she won’t eat leftovers at this level of pred.

Adored Beast looks a lot like what I was trying with Krista before steroids. I bought a bunch of different supplements from Vitality Science. Not all of them were well received by Krista but we had our tricks and treats to get them in her. Betty is far more stubborn about things going into her food. But Betty will take up Hills A/D coated capsules as many as I drop down in front of her. AnimalBiome seems to be a good protocol for her because we can do the testing and she can take those capsules without any fuss, arguments, or wrestling matches (Krista was a wrestler about pills, hence her treat portions.) I think Adored Beast can work well if you can get it into the cat. I can’t do it with Betty. So AB is our restoration protocol of choice. Plus that testing cannot be beat! I only wish the turnaround was quicker. The last one was two weeks. But the reports before that averaged about three weeks turnaround. A lot can happen in three weeks. I would love to know how different foods or supplements affect her biome. And I’m just flying blind on faith between reports. I think when I can get Betty eating different foods, we should see different results and eventually figure out, with their customer support’s guidance, how to get her back to balanced.