Dry matter basis question

[milu]

Since joining TCS I think I have learned a lot about cat nutrition. One thing I never knew about before was how to compare dry and canned foods...by looking at the values on a dry matter basis.

One thing has me confused though. I contacted a few of manufacturers and asked them for the carbohydrate percentages on a DMB and received a lot of responses

What surprised me is that sometimes the percentages for carbs, protein and fat exceed 100%. How is that possible? where did I get my wires crossed?

Example: a canned food with 78% moisture

Protein 8.5% as fed = 38.65% (DMB)
Fat 6% as fed = 27.27% (DMB)
Carbs as provided by manufacturer: more than 40%

 

[auntie crazy]

Originally Posted by MiLu

Since joining TCS I think I have learned a lot about cat nutrition. One thing I never knew about before was how to compare dry and canned foods...by looking at the values on a dry matter basis.

One thing has me confused though. I contacted a few of manufacturers and asked them for the carbohydrate percentages on a DMB and received a lot of responses

What surprised me is that sometimes the percentages for carbs, protein and fat exceed 100%. How is that possible? where did I get my wires crossed?

Example: a canned food with 78% moisture

Protein 8.5% as fed = 38.65% (DMB)
Fat 6% as fed = 27.27% (DMB)
Carbs as provided by manufacturer: more than 40%

Can you identify the product? I'm inclined to think that 40% was not a DMB value, but taking a look at the percentage analysis of the actual product would be helpful.

AC

 

[minka]

Are you sure they said More than?
I was going to say that it might be that the protein is less, but protein is listed as a minimum so it could only be more..
It could be that the food has Less moisture in it though. Like if it really had 75% moisture, then it would have 34% protein and 24% fat so there would be plenty of room for more than 40% carbs.

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by MiLu

What surprised me is that sometimes the percentages for carbs, protein and fat exceed 100%. How is that possible? where did I get my wires crossed?

Most don't advertise "as fed" numbers, and some listed #s are maximums and some are minimums. Its fine though, as long as you're ballpark its good enough. And as was said, be sure you (or they) aren't mixing up %kcal and DMB.

 

[milu]

The company doesn't want their actual figures to be shared, and I don't want to say more than I should. I think most of you, who have read labels might recognize the fed-as numbers, 8.5 is pretty unique

I checked again, and the number they gave me for the carbs is % DMB, and it is greater than 40%.

Minka's explanation makes sense, the moisture content must be lower than the maximum 78% since fat and protein are minimums.

In any case, more than 40% carbs is a lot!!!

 

[auntie crazy]

Originally Posted by MiLu

...
In any case, more than 40% carbs is a lot!!!

It sure is! I would expect that from a kibble more than I would a canned. *whew*

I have no idea what it is; but then, I stopped comparing the minute details of canned many years ago.

Glad you got your question answered!

AC

 

[furryfriends50]

Originally Posted by MiLu

The company doesn't want their actual figures to be shared, and I don't want to say more than I should. I think most of you, who have read labels might recognize the fed-as numbers, 8.5 is pretty unique

I checked again, and the number they gave me for the carbs is % DMB, and it is greater than 40%.

Minka's explanation makes sense, the moisture content must be lower than the maximum 78% since fat and protein are minimums.

In any case, more than 40% carbs is a lot!!!

My guess: Hills Prescription Diet z/d Feline ULTRA Allergen-Free which is 40.50% carbs on a DMB. However, it is 7.5% protein for the guarenteed analysis, so it can't be that. All that is on their website...they can't stop me from sharing information from that!

Second guess: Natural Balance Green Pea & Chicken OR Natural Balance Green Pea & Salmon. Both of those are over 40% carbs on a DMB & the guarenteed analysis states that, at least for the chicken one, it is 8.5% protein.

If anyone wants the exact carb numbers for the Natural Balance foods, you can PM me your email address, as I do have permission from Natural Balance (as well as several other companies) to share their DMB carb levels using email.

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by MiLu

TI checked again, and the number they gave me for the carbs is % DMB, and it is greater than 40%.

Minka's explanation makes sense, the moisture content must be lower than the maximum 78% since fat and protein are minimums.

In any case, more than 40% carbs is a lot!!!

Yes it absolutely is, so I would avoid that food. That was one of the myths that was shot down in the link in my signature, that wet food is inherently lower carbs than dry. Some are, but absolutely not all, so you have to do your homework.

Royal Canin Calorie Control wet food is particularly high carb as well for example, and Royal Canin isn't cheap by any means.

 

[milu]

Originally Posted by furryfriends50

Second guess: Natural Balance Green Pea & Chicken OR Natural Balance Green Pea & Salmon. Both of those are over 40% carbs on a DMB & the guarenteed analysis states that, at least for the chicken one, it is 8.5% protein.

Since you mentioned it and you probably know the rules better than I do...yes, I was talking about NB Green Pea + Chicken. I suppose they chose to name it in that order for a reason

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Yes it absolutely is, so I would avoid that food. That was one of the myths that was shot down in the link in my signature, that wet food is inherently lower carbs than dry. Some are, but absolutely not all, so you have to do your homework.

I totally agree with you, I'm not sure why some of the other posters in that thread didn't. High quality dry can be better than junk wet.

 

[milu]

hmm...now I'm wondering why they would replace cheap water (moisture) with stuff that leads to more carbs which so many of us are conscious about?

 

[auntie crazy]

Originally Posted by MiLu

hmm...now I'm wondering why they would replace cheap water (moisture) with stuff that leads to more carbs which so many of us are conscious about?

Because, somehow, what you're looking at means more profit for the company; and they know that the vast majority of folks are not going to take the time to decipher the ingredients and percentage analysis. It's extremely difficult to imagine just how strongly focused on profit - to the sad detriment of nutrition - the pet food manufacturers truly are.

Milu, you seem like you have an interest in this topic, and you certainly have a questioning mind

; I think you might find the book, "Buyer Beware: The crimes, lies and truth about pet food." fascinating reading. It's far from the only one written on the manufacturing processes of the pet food industry, but it's the most recent (just came out a few months ago) and the most detailed. I think you'll find it interesting!

AC

 

[minka]

Originally Posted by MiLu

Since you mentioned it and you probably know the rules better than I do...yes, I was talking about NB Green Pea + Chicken. I suppose they chose to name it in that order for a reason

Yea, that food is sort of like a hypoallergenic food. It's something you would feed if you found out your cat was allergic to the other sources of carbs (rice, corn, potatoes, etc) or if your cat was allergic to other sources of meat.

Originally Posted by MiLu

hmm...now I'm wondering why they would replace cheap water (moisture) with stuff that leads to more carbs which so many of us are conscious about?

I wouldn't say they were replacing water (75% versus 78%) with carbs exactly, because 78% is the standard for labels of cat food's that are pate, just like 80-82% is the standard for gravy cans.
Ex: Innova and Blue Spa Select both say max 78%, but it's clear that the Blue has WAY more water than the Innova. Most cans Say 78%, but very few actually have that much.
I don't totally understand it, but sometimes when you have an allergic cat you feed a mix of chicken and rice, even though rice isn't needed for cats. And I'm pretty sure the GP + Chicken is the same way. An alternative for those with allergy prone kitties.