Discouraged and Disgruntled and Confused...help?

[tammyp]

Hi all,

I'm feeling like I'm being led to go against my understandings and dare I say it, 'beliefs', re cat food.  As background, I'm 90% raw, feeding frankenprey, with one canned meal a day (we have 4 meals a day).  This past week my new kitten has had a tummy upset, and since 2am this morning, has vomited and squirty diahorread a LOT.  I took her in to the vet.

Really, I think I'm at that low ebb when a pet is sick, and feeling like nothing I'm doing is working (have been feeding cooked to help), so I needed to trust a vet (a feline specialist no less)...who then recommends I feed the 'prescription' diets for sensitive tummies.  Wow, talk about getting you when you are just worried and sad!  And yet, my poor kitten must eat, and was refusing to eat cooked meat (she's 'on strike' and bored - so I gave in to the loved raw last night after 40hrs of being fine; the result was bad).

Gah.

I just don't believe these prescription diets, having read all the ingredients, are at all gentle or conducive to delivering nutrition.  And yet, I bought 4 pouches of the damn food!  (And am secretly very pleased that Ava refused to eat the first type...she has instead eaten four little pieces of cooked rabbit.  I hope she keeps them down).

SO, do I just need a 'you're doing good, mum'?  Or am I fundamentally wrong in my raw understandings/beliefs?  

I did ask the vet what it was that made the food gentle - the answer was 'they are just specifically formulated to be kind to the digestive system'.  That aint the kind of marketing one-liner I want when I request INFO (I think I must also be a bit angry, lol!).  Has anyone got INFO to help me in my quandry?

Oh, the other thing was she said probiotics in yoghurt are different to the probiotics a feline system needs. I know enough about the human system to say we are ALL different and the probiotics in one yoghurt may not suit your particular flora.  So this might be true - anyone got the study?  Still on the yoghurt thing, even if it wouldn't necessarily help,  I asked if it would harm. My vet went the lactose route on me.  Now, I would love some learned person to tell me I'm right.  I am under a human dietician for fructose malabsorbtion (which also includes lactose) for myself...and the research says that yoghurt and hard cheese are fine for lactose as it is burned up in the fermentation process.  So I trotted out that gem to the vet and she said 'we HOPE they are MOSTLY used up'.  Well, truely, what is it?  If human diets get the ok for NO LACTOSE in the yoghurt from a DIETICIAN, surely this is true???

Should I lose faith in my feline specialist vet in matters of nutrition?  She is very good in testing and medicine.  I am currently getting a PCR test done on a stool sample, so hoping to get a healthy kitten soon!  In the meantime, feeding is all a bit of a muddle.

 

[skimble]

I just wanted to say that I am so sorry you are going through this with your kitten.  I am switching to raw so I can't offer much, but others with a vast amount of experience will be along.  It will get better.

I went through a recent urinary problem with my boy and I was shocked at how little the 3 vets I went to understood about the prescription diets. 

I read a book by Dr Barbara Royals (she encourages raw feeding) and she explained that in vet school they have 1 semester of nutrition taught by the pet food maker.  She said they are given free pet food from Hills as students.  So your vet is probably a good vet and has never been properly educated in nutrition. 

I have celiac disease and am lactose intolerant.  Dietitian told me as you were told about yogurt and cheese. 

There are options for supplements/probiotics that others will offer that may help. 

Hope all is better soon. 

 

[mschauer]

I'm sorry you're going through such a tough time with your baby! I can imagine how worried you must be after a week of vomiting and diarrhea!

It's not clear to me which raw feeding belief you feel is being tested. Is it that you thought raw food is always better but your vet is pushing a processed RX food as being better??? 

You seem to be suspicious of your vet's motivation in recommending the RX food. Obviously I don't know your vet but I think it is a safe assumption that regardless of what you may think of her recommendations she is trying to help your kitten. Raw food isn't magic and processed foods aren't poison. If I were in your situation I would be willing to try voodoo to help my kitten. Trying a processed RX food would be an easy call. She needs nutrition no matter where it comes from.

I wouldn't give your kitten yogurt. She may well be lactose intolerant and giving her yogurt would just make matters worst. How old is she by the way?

Are you giving her subcutaneous fluids?  If not I would strongly recommend you ask your vet about doing it. With vomiting and diarrhea going on for a week your kitten could be getting severely dehydrated. Even if she isn't dehydrated the extra fluids will help her body to flush out what ever pathogens it may be trying to get rid of.

Have you tried feeding her baby food? The type with meat only (no seasonings) is frequently well liked by cats and can give them the nutrition they need when they won't eat anything else and I would guess it is pretty easy to digest. Maybe try giving just very small amounts at a time.

Hopefully the PCR test results will be helpful.

 

[mschauer]

Here's some information about yogurt and lactose intolerance:

http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/lactoseintolerance/

The amount of change needed in the diet depends on how much lactose a person can consume without symptoms. For example, one person may have severe symptoms after drinking a small glass of milk, while another can drink a large glass without symptoms. Others can easily consume yogurt and hard cheeses such as cheddar and Swiss but not milk or other milk products.

The Dietary Guidelines for Americans 2005  recommend that people with lactose intolerance choose milk products with lower levels of lactose than regular milk, such as yogurt and hard cheese.

So I guess from a lactose intolerance perspective yogurt is OK. I still wouldn't give it to you kitten in her current situation though.

 

[peaches08]

How long have you had her? What was her diet before? Maybe the transition to raw was too fast?

Also, what about probiotics in granular form?

 

[melesine]

I hear you. I've gone through this twice now. First time was with my dog with a liver shunt that was fixed surgically and I was then told to feed rx low protein diet for life. Yes the food that was full of grains and starches. After a couples years and a resulting over weight dog with allergies we switched to raw and now 8 years later he is still doing great. So much for their nutrition advice. 

Second time was last year when one of my boys ( cat) was peeing outside the box and dx with a UTI ( cultured the urine, e coli plus 2 others, he had crystals but no stones). He was on C/D ( they wanted to give me dry food of all things but I insisted on canned) for about a month due to the crystals and hoping it wouldn't form a stone. Once he was verified cleared of the UTI by another post treatment urine culture they still wanted him on rx food for life. Hello, he had a verified bacterial infection that is now cured. I took him off dry food ( he was on both dry and canned with a little raw before the dx) and since he won't eat exclusively raw he is on a mix of raw and canned. He hasn't had a recurrence. 

I'm pretty skeptical of veterinary nutrition advice. 

My questions would be, how long has the kitten been on raw? I was going to suggest a stool sample but you are already doing that. Have you tried temporarily feeding just canned to see if that helps? Have you tried an elimination diet to see if it's possibly and allergy to one of the protein sources you are feeding? Since you've seen a vet already I'd guess that illness has been ruled out already as the cause. 

 

[Willowy]

I don't know of any studies about the gut bacteria of cats (LDG may have some though!), but regular probiotics for humans have always worked for my cats and dogs. So at least one of the bacteria strains must be at least slightly helpful. Won't hurt, might help? This is the one I use: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00028P5PU/?tag=&tag=thecatsite

The amount of probiotics in yogurt is fairly low. You'd have to eat a ton of it to get as many good bacteria as are in a pill.

But, no, regular vets, unless they have a special interest in nutrition, usually don't know any more about nutrition than a GP knows about human nutrition. Which is why you see a dietitian/nutritionist for dietary suggestions, right? If you really think your kitty's issues are diet related, maybe a veterinary nutritionist would be a good investment. But I would guess that her gut flora got messed up by worms or whatever tummy troubles kittens usually get and she just needs to get that sorted out.

 

[ldg]

Oh hun, I'm so sorry about your kitty. :heart2: How "new" is new? How long has she been with you, how quickly was she transitioned to raw, and how long has she been eating raw? Was she a rescue kitty, or did she come from a reputable breeder? Did she have a fever?

When I was first feeding raw, whenever any of the cats got sick (after the transition or if diarrhea persisted for more than a day or two), my natural fear was the food, and off to the vet we went. I work with three vets at three different practices. The local vet is traditional, but not anti-raw. She never blamed the food (with all adult cats, if only one was sick, or if they got sick on progressive days, it's pretty clear it's not the food).

That said, kittens' immune systems are still developing, so they're more susceptible to everything. On the other hand, I'm not sure an Rx food full of grains is going to be "easy" on a tummy that isn't used to grains... but like mschauer said, with a young kitten very sick, I'd be trying anything, even voodoo if I thought it would help.

My fallback for upset GI systems is boiled chicken and broth, or plain chicken babyfood. I also provide a bit of fiber, usually in the form of slippeyr elm bark powder gelled in water and mixed into the food.

Was anything prescribed for the kitten? I mean - is she too young for an anti-emetic/anti-nausea medication? I assume any treatment (such as antibiotics) is pending results of the fecal?

FYI, if the fecal was watery diarrhea, you may actually need to get several done to find anything. I've seen where it took four fecal samples to find the culprit. So many of the nasties are shed via cysts, and without firm stool to "pull" them along with the stool, diagnosis can be elusive even when there IS something present.

Now - the common strain of probiotic in yogurt is lactic acid bacteria, typically L. acidophilus. I would recommend giving it as a supplement, not from yogurt. And while it's true that each species has its own gut flora, acidophilus is the most widely studied, and has been shown to be of benefit in cats.

Marshall-Jones et al. 2006. "Effects of Lactobacillus acidophilus DSM13241 as a probiotic in healthy adult cats." Am J Vet Res. 2006 Jun;67(6):1005-12. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16740094

PROCEDURES:

Cats were fed a nutritionally complete dry food for 5 weeks. Fecal character was assessed daily, and a single fecal sample and 3-mL blood sample were collected for bacterial enumeration and hematologic analysis, respectively. Cats were then fed the same diet supplemented with L acidophilus DSM13241 (2 x 10(8) CFU/d) for 4.5 weeks. Repeat fecal and hematologic measurements were taken prior to the return to control diet for a 4-week period.


RESULTS: The probiotic species was recovered from feces, demonstrating survival through the feline gastrointestinal tract. Probiotic supplementation was associated with increased numbers of beneficial Lactobacillus and L acidophilus groups in feces and decreased numbers of Clostridium spp and Enterococcus faecalis, indicating an altered bacterial balance in the gastrointestinal tract microflora. Fecal pH was also decreased suggesting a colonic environment selective for the beneficial lactic acid bacterial population. Systemic and immunomodulatory effects were associated with administration of L acidophilus DSM13241 including altered cell numbers within WBC subsets and enhanced phagocytic capacity in the peripheral granulocyte population. In addition, plasma endotoxin concentrations were decreased during probiotic feeding, and RBCs had a decreased susceptibility to osmotic pressure.


CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Probiotic strain L acidophilus DSM13241 fed at 2 x 10(8) CFU/d can alter the balance of gastrointestinal microflora in healthy cats. Furthermore, administration of this probiotic results in beneficial systemic and immunomodulatory effects in cats.

The child dose of probtiocs is 5 billion CFU. That's what I'd be giving my kitty daily. At least I'd start there, and if it didn't cause negative effects, I'd probably bump it to twice that, potentially even more. Note that in the study, 100 billion CFU was given twice daily to adult cats. I give mine 10 billion CFU daily. When Chumley had explosive diarrhea, the holistic vet had me giving him a minimum of 10 billion CFU twice a day. The probiotic Mercola sells is 50 billion CFU daily.

And absolutely - if she hasn't been given fluids, I would be asking why, and either giving her fluids at home, or working to get fluids in her - if she can keep anything down. :heart2:

Hang in there! Cats and kittens get sick. Our vets use the tools they have to help us; most know very little about nutrition and don't think about the "species-appropriate" nature of what we feed our kitties. Feeding her ground food or baby food, or cooked food for a little while - if you can get her to eat it - isn't the worst idea in the world. The more finely ground it is, the easier it is for her to digest.

Another quick question: what proteins has she eaten in the past?

 

[mschauer]

You seem to be suspicious of your vet's motivation in recommending the RX food. Obviously I don't know your vet but I think it is a safe assumption that regardless of what you may think of her recommendations she is trying to help your kitten. Raw food isn't magic and processed foods aren't poison. If I were in your situation I would be willing to try voodoo to help my kitten. Trying a processed RX food would be an easy call. She needs nutrition no matter where it comes from.

I just want to clarify that I meant to be suggesting that trying an RX food temporarily, just until she gets past this problem, might be worth considering.

 

[tammyp]

Hi everyone, thank you all for your thoughtful, informative, and supportive responses.  And lol, I would do voodoo too…hence those cans, even if I am suspicious!  Like Melesine, I had to insist on canned and no kibble (I mean really, we’re BATTLING dehydration!)  I also must say that I absolutely know my vet wants the best for my cats.  I don’t question that – I question WHY the food recommendations have been made simply because I want to understand.  And normally I have my ears comfortably closed with a vet when it comes to the inevitable push of their food, so I don’t have this churn of emotion.  But I respect  this vet as she is a feline specialist and she’s not ‘down’ on the raw thing, and well, we’d tried it my way with cooked chicken…

Ava is a Korat, 15 weeks old and we have had her for 2.5 weeks.  She was gifted to us from the two Australian Korat breeders, after another little kitten I almost had was exposed to FIP (her litter mate died, so we decided it would be better that she go with her brother to a home without other cats).  They are exemplary breeders and I got Kato, my 2.5yrs neutered boy, from the same breeder as Ava – this breeder was the person that started my raw journey.  So Ava in her first home was fed a great variety; some kibble, selected canned food, raw roo, raw beef, chicken necks and cutlets, cooked chicken.

Admittedly there were new things in her diet when she came here; but also much of what she was accustomed to including the same canned foods (but not the kibble as she wasn’t much interested, and Kato stole it!)  The new things -she has had raw rabbit and turkey, and she has stolen Kato’s canned food.  During her first week here, she had squidgy poos, and I put that down to stress and small diet changes.   Then Kato go cat flu.  Thankfully it was at the end of the first week, and they were already friends, but Kato was a sick, sick boy.  Vet thinks Ava brought it in; other than a little booger in her eyes, she was fine.  Interestingly, the first day of flu for Kato he also had a small squidgy poo, so I mentioned these to the vet and we were keeping an eye on things. 

4 days later Kato was much better (on twice daily antibiotics) but still a bit less energy than normal.  Then he had a day of 5 vomiting sessions – each were 3 vomits each, and we started at 4am and went to 4am!  Then the next day Ava vomited once and had a liquid diahorrea.  I phoned the vet each day and switched to cooked chicken.  We went 40hrs with both cats having no vomit and no diahorrea.  And then we hit the past two days.  All I can say is, at least they are taking turns being really sick!  Kato has a healthy appetite again and is digestively fine, and he is so gentle and caring of Ava (she even nurses on him).

Ava had no fever, and is not dehydrated (amazingly).  In between needing to rest, she also goes pell mell around the apartment with Kato.  I am surprised at how vigorous she is considering the tummy upset.  I offer my drinking glass to her frequently (and remember not to drink from it myself!) and she drinks.  I am so thankful for that!  Vet has not given any meds yet.  The preliminary tests show no bugs and no giardia.  Ava is also up to date with worming and shots (although her final cat flu shots will have to wait until she is better).  And I provided two stool samples – one firmer, one the liquid (how lucky was that, considering what you said LDG?!)

I will phone my vet Monday to touch base.  Today Ava is marginally better; probably not much poo left in her!  She has eaten very small amounts – a little of the Hills this time (like less than a teaspoon), and about 3 pieces of cooked rabbit.  She disdains cooked chicken now.  My plan is to keep offering cooked rabbit or turkey, and the prescription canned, so she can choose, and hopefully eat something . 

Thank you to the various people who suggested  baby food – I will try that too.  I will also look into the granular probiotics- thanks Willowy, and  LDG, you provided the research yet again, thanks!  (Interestingly, high strength probiotics aren’t well tolerated at all by humans with my condition!) 

I think I have answered all the questions!  At this stage, with just 2.5 weeks with us, I’m not yet looking at a dietary cause, or even have reason to suspect one.  I just want to get her better from illness.

Again, thank you for all your support and information!  I have plenty of cute pics if you want to see her (hint hint…my signature!)

 

[ldg]

Oh she is so cute!!!!! :lovegrin2: (As is Kato, BTW!).

Oh - so this probably is from the flu! Aw, poor babies! :heart2: I'm glad Kato's better.... hope Ava joins him soon!

And with the issue being the flu in mind... I have no idea why the vet thinks a prescription food is easy on the tummy, other than they don't know very much about feline nutrition or actual needs. :dk: Even a feline specialist. Now - if this had been a holistic vet, then I'd really be scratching my head. But holistic vets tend to understand that food is the basis of health long term. A feline specialist is still a traditional vet, in the end.

 

[tammyp]

Wow, really, you think the tummy troubles are related  to the flu?

It doesn't seem totally off the planet to me - but I did ask vet this, and she said no, they are separate things.

Thanks and thanks and thanks for what you said about the food - it's what I think, and I needed the reassurance from someone like you who is really up with it.  I got to the point last night where I thought it is better for her to eat something rather than nothing.  So I turned a blind eye when she took off with Kato's rabbit bone.

This morning Ava had the best poo I have ever seen from her; formed, solid, not stinky, and not thin.

Today I fed her regular kitten canned with no grains and she has eaten 3/4 of it so far...I'm hoping we have turned the corner!!

And thanks for your compliments on Ava and Kato - they are lovely and super smart and I am thrilled to bits that they love each other!

 

[katluver4life]

Just catching up on this thread. Yay! Ava!

And OMG they are beautiful kitties! I love the pic of them in a hug, more of an embrace really. So sweet!

 

[my2wins]

Here is a good site about raw and transitioning: www.catinfo.org

(Catinfo dot org)

It taught me everything important about raw feeding. My kittens are 18 months now, and it was not easy in their first few months. There was vomiting, there was diarrhea, there were tears (mine). Very similar to having human babies.

For a short while during the diarrhea phase, I used the science diet canned, only until their bodies healed.

What I learned is that I was giving them too much variation in their diet.

None of my vets have advocated or agreed with raw diet, but I take their opinion and then I stick with raw.

The food that worked best for us is Radcat chicken or turkey. I also rotate with Hound and Gatos chicken (canned). No dry kibble ever. This combination is what works best now, but it was a lot of trial and error in the beginning.

Follow your instinct on the raw diet. But do use medical advise to help kitty through the rough patches of the runs. Once she's a little older, she (or he) will surely stabilize then you can go back to a primarily raw diet which is best.

Also think about getting a second kitten. The joy and quality of life is so much greater for everyone when kitten has a BFF. If you can still get a litter mate this is best, but if not, any same age will be good. My two kits are inseparable and I can't imagine either one of them living alone without the other.

Now 2013

Jan 2012

 

[katluver4life]

Also think about getting a second kitten. The joy and quality of life is so much greater for everyone when kitten has a BFF. If you can still get a litter mate this is best, but if not, any same age will be good. My two kits are inseparable and I can't imagine either one of them living alone without the other.

Now 2013

Jan 2012

She has 2

. Ava and Kato. Their pics are in her sig. Your 2 are gorgeous btw! Very cute! I love snuggling kitties

 

[ldg]

She also lives in Australia. Her blog and resource website, to which tammyp provided a link, is titled Cat Stuff for Aussies.