Difficulties finding supplements Copper and Vitamin D

my_money_pit

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I am looking for chelated copper. I found one that is not labeled as chelated copper but under the ingredients, it's listed as "Copper (from Copper Amino Acid Chelate Complex)"
I checked with chat gpt and it seems the difference is with the chelating process but I am not sure if I can use this one instead of this.

I'm also having problems with Vitamin D. Dr Becker's book lists Vitamin D dry 400 iu from Twinlabs which seems to be nonexistent. I am finding products labeled as Vitamin D but under the ingredient, it's listed as D3 and some as D2. Is there a pure form of Vitamin D? Can someone point out where they are buying it from?

Thanks,
 
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Jabzilla

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Hey,
I dont have Dr. Becker's book so I don't know what her recipie is. But I have a copper and a vit D supplement that I use for my cat's food. the copper is from Thorne Thorne, Copper Bisglycinate, 60 Capsules (iherb.com) And the vitamin D is from Pure Encapsulations. Pure Encapsulations - Vitamin D3 1,000 IU - Hypoallergenic Support for Bone and Immune Health - 250 Vegetable Capsules : Amazon.ca: Health & Personal Care I didn't use a vit D supplement for years since I was meeting my cats requirements with chicken egg yolks and sardines. But I've stopped using chicken eggs (one cat has a negative reaction to chicken) and instead use quail eggs. On weeks where they get sardines, they dont need any vit D supplementation. But on fish free weeks, they get 1/64 tsp of that vitamin D mixed into their 7 day batch of food. If your cat an eat chicken egg yolks and/or sardines then you won't need to add a vit D supplement. Two large chicken egg yolks and 15g of canned sardines provide 2.56 mcg of vitamin D, which is 104% of an entire week's worth of the vitamin for a cat.

As for vitamin D vs vitamin D3 goes, supposedly the latter is more easily absorbed by the body and is more effective than vitamin D2. Vitamin D vs. Vitamin D3: What's the Difference? | HealthNews

Looking at the two copper options you've picked, I'd go with the veggie caps one. Veggie caps are easy to open and much easier to measure than having to try to crush a tablet. My cats rarely need the entire capsule of any of their supplements and using veggie caps makes it easy to use 1/4 or 1/2 of the total dose. Also, beef liver and duck liver are great sources of copper. If you have access to those, then you may not need to use a copper supplement. Duck liver is very high in vitamin A though so I would only use a small amount of it. Quail is a good source of copper as well. Microminerals, NRC Essential Nutrients for Pets, Canine Nutrition (perfectlyrawsome.com)
 
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Jabzilla

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Oh, I forgot to mention another key thing. The reason why I picked the vitamin D supplement that I did is because it had the lowest dose out of all the veggie cap options. The vit D requirement is very low in mcg for cats and I wanted to find something that I could create tiny doses from to ensure they dont get too much of it.

Also, Atlantic mackerel is another good source of vitamin D. Atlantic Mackerel nutrition: calories, carbs, GI, protein, fiber, fats (foodstruct.com)
 
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my_money_pit

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Oh, I forgot to mention another key thing. The reason why I picked the vitamin D supplement that I did is because it had the lowest dose out of all the veggie cap options. The vit D requirement is very low in mcg for cats and I wanted to find something that I could create tiny doses from to ensure they dont get too much of it.

Also, Atlantic mackerel is another good source of vitamin D. Atlantic Mackerel nutrition: calories, carbs, GI, protein, fiber, fats (foodstruct.com)
In the book, they have two recipes for the supplements. One to be used if you are giving organs and eggs and the second in case you have a missing piece of the puzzle thus the need for Vitamin D and copper.
I just wanted to have both supplements as a back up in case my cat refused the mix with organs. I will have to go with adding organs for now and hope he will eat it as is.
Otherwise,I will use the product you mentioned.
I was a bit confused with the vitamin D as the book doesn't specify if it's D2 or D3 and labels are pretty confusing.

Thank you for your help !
 

Jabzilla

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No problem! I agree that they're good to have just in case. Perfectly Rawesome mentions vitamin D3 and D2 as well. It sounds like D2 tends to be from plant sources while D3 is animal based.
 
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my_money_pit

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No problem! I agree that they're good to have just in case. Perfectly Rawesome mentions vitamin D3 and D2 as well. It sounds like D2 tends to be from plant sources while D3 is animal based.
I have an additional question and hope you have the knowledge to help me solve it. I need to find a bone replacement. The book suggest two brands NOW and KAL.
I have looked at both brands and the ratio of Calcium to phosphorus is off. I am not sure if both brands changed their recipes after the book came out but when looking at the ingredients, the ratios are off. I am surprised that they suggest two brands that do not align with what is taught in the book.
From my understanding, the calcium to phosphorus ratio is between 1:1 and 1:2 . The supplements suggested have:
Calcium 750 mg
Phosphorus 250 mg
Magnesium 5 mg
It's obvious that we have a high level of calcium.

The bone replacement is only used with meals that do not include bones. The book's rotation schedule suggests two meals a day, one with beef where bones cannot be added and a second one either chicken or turkey where bones can be used. But, all the food can be made without bones as there is a recipe for chicken and turkey without bones.

I am afraid that this high calcium level will cause kidney issues on the long term.
 

Jabzilla

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I have a very simple bone substitute and it works well for CKD cats as well since its low in phos. That substitute is eggshell powder. I add 2-5g of it to my cats food each week, depending on how much calcium they are getting from the food alone (they sometimes get things like ground rabbit which has bone included). As for figuring how much of it you need, I rely on my Raw Fed & Nerdy formulation sheet. It tells me how much calcium and phosphorus is in the food and shows the ca: P ratio. I increase the amount of eggshell powder until that ratio is 1:1. I'm not entirely sure how you would figure out how much you need without a tool like that since the amount of calcium needed changes based on how much phos there is in the food.

Numbers wise, 1g of eggshell has 401mg of calcium, 4.50mg of magnesium, and 0.99mg of phos. I've never used bone meal powder for my cats before so I can't help with that supplement specifically. They've always gotten RMBs, meat with bones ground in it, and/or ground eggshells for their calcium.
 

Jabzilla

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Also, another challenge of doing this without a formulation sheet is potentially not knowing how much phos the food has on its own. As eat type of meat has phos in it and it all adds up. So its hard to say how much calcium the batch needs to get that 1:1 ratio without knowing how much phos the food has. Meat like rabbit and sardines also have calcium in them which would need consideration too. All of this is why I use the formulation sheet. It does all of the math for you and removes any headache from the process. This is the one I use, in case you're curious. Raw Fed and Nerdy Formulation Sheet - Raw Fed and Nerdy
 
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my_money_pit

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Also, another challenge of doing this without a formulation sheet is potentially not knowing how much phos the food has on its own. As eat type of meat has phos in it and it all adds up. So its hard to say how much calcium the batch needs to get that 1:1 ratio without knowing how much phos the food has. Meat like rabbit and sardines also have calcium in them which would need consideration too. All of this is why I use the formulation sheet. It does all of the math for you and removes any headache from the process. This is the one I use, in case you're curious. Raw Fed and Nerdy Formulation Sheet - Raw Fed and Nerdy
Thank you for sharing the sheet. I am following the recipes mentioned in the book and trying hard not to modify anything since they seem to have a balance diet. They also publish the analysis of each recipe at the end of the book and it seems like the ratio are correct after taking into consideration the phosphorus in the meat and organs.

I was not aware that phosphorus can be found in meat. So I think after adding everything, things balance out.

Thank you again for your input. Putting the pieces of the puzzle together is very confusing and stressful.
 

Jabzilla

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You're welcome, I'm glad everything works out! =D It is very challenging when starting out, but as you learn more about feline nutrition the puzzle pieces will start to make sense.
 

sophie1

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Why are you giving your cat vitamin D? They get that from liver, along with K and other fat soluble vitamins.

It's not in Dr. Pierson's recipe, curious where you got that from?

In any case, if you do take vitamin D3, you also need K2 (if you're a human, too). K2 is almost exclusively animal based, although you can get it from natto. I believe the best natural sources are grassfed dairy fat (i.e. butter) and pastured eggs.
 
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my_money_pit

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Why are you giving your cat vitamin D? They get that from liver, along with K and other fat soluble vitamins.

It's not in Dr. Pierson's recipe, curious where you got that from?

In any case, if you do take vitamin D3, you also need K2 (if you're a human, too). K2 is almost exclusively animal based, although you can get it from natto. I believe the best natural sources are grassfed dairy fat (i.e. butter) and pastured eggs.
The book has two recipes for the supplements. One that is used in case you are including the organs and the second one if you are not including organs. I usually include organs but wanted to have the vitamin D as a back up in case organs are not available for some reason. I wasn't going to use it unless I am missing on organs.
 

sophie1

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Oh I see!! Makes sense.

I had tried ordering freeze dried powdered liver as a solution for my cats. They HATED it.
 
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