Dietary fads

[Anne]

Kibble contains pathogens most of the time too

. 

Not necessarily.

I'm researching the topic right now for a new article. Kibble may contain bacteria but it should not contain salmonella, listeria and other bacteria which are pathogenic to humans. Dry pet food is monitored and if they find a batch that contains salmonella - which certainly does happen occasionally - there's a recall. The policy - at least in the US - is to have zero salmonella in dry pet food.

On the other hand, there's no such policy when it comes to raw meat. Raw meat - particularly chicken - is almost always contaminated with some amount of pathogens. Apparently, the way animals are grown for meat just makes it unlikely that they stay free of pathogens. 

 The assumption is that people won't consume raw chicken or meat. Even so, there are many cases of contamination and disease in humans dealing with raw meats but that's somehow tolerated.

Feeding raw meat - particularly chicken - in your home means you raise the level of pathogens in it. Your cat will ingest salmonella and in all likelihood will shed some of that around too (even if you keep things very clean). So how come people who feed raw aren't sick all the time? Well, some do get sick. And some dogs and cats get sick too. There are several case studies in the literature of raw-fed pets with salmonella infection and also of humans contracting salmonella after feeding raw. That said, most healthy individuals - human and cats - will not show symptoms when infected with a small amount of salmonella. Our immune system can handle a certain load of the bacteria (there are actually very specific numbers as to much you can ingest before becoming sick). 

The problem begins when people don't take these pathogens seriously and don't follow the very strict rules of handling and feeding raw meat. Also, people and cats who are already immunocompromised (that includes babies, pregnant women and the elderly) are more at risk for developing a symptomatic infection. 

There's a very impressive body of evidence - both case studies and actual studies - that demonstrate the risk of feeding raw. Sure, you can mostly get away with it if you and your cats are young and healthy and you follow the safety guidelines in a very strict way. It's still unsafe as a recommendation for the general population and that's why the AVMA and other organizations go against it. 

I don't want to give more spoilers for the article 

 

To get back to the kibble point. Yes, sometimes kibble is contaminated with pathogens. It shouldn't be but it does happen occasionally and you could get exposed to pathogens before they discover it and issue a recall. That said, the odds are much lower with kibble compared to raw meats. Moreover, salmonella doesn't multiply very well in dry kibble yet will multiply like crazy in unrefrigerated raw meat. Overall, put kibble in one bowl and put your best-sourced raw chicken in another. Half an hour later, your chances of avoiding a salmonella infection are far better with the kibble. 

 

[Anne]

One more interesting point - and one that won't be making it into the article - is this.

Consider a cat that's fed raw and never becomes visibly ill. That cat is constantly exposed to pathogens and his/her immune system is constantly battling them to keep the cat healthy. What does that do to the cat in the long run? We don't know. We do know from controlled studies that cats fed raw have elevated counts of white blood cells and similar indicators of inflammation. We also know that in humans, constant inflammation is not a good thing. It can cause all kind of diseases, including autoimmune disease and cancer. 

But cats hunt in the wild, don't they?

1. I have yet to see anyone feeding live birds or mice to their cats. By definition, feeding raw means you're feeding meat that's been dead for hours if not days or weeks. 

2. Most people feed chicken, beef, pork and other meats that come from industrialized farms. They are very contaminated due to the way the animals are raised. 

That means a higher load of pathogens than you would get with live prey. Obviously, most cats can handle that and thrive on raw food. We just have no idea how these high loads of pathogens and constant state of inflammation affect them in the long run. 

 

[Willowy]

The policy - at least in the US - is to have zero salmonella in dry pet food.

That's when it leaves the factory. But, kibble sprayed with animal digest, after sitting in a warm warehouse for several months? :dk: Who knows what's grown on it in that time. I'm not sure anyone has done an after-market pathogen test on kibble.

That means a higher load of pathogens than you would get with live prey. Obviously, most cats can handle that and thrive on raw food. We just have no idea how these high loads of pathogens and constant state of inflammation affect them in the long run.

That's an interesting idea, and I hope they do some studies on that.

(Just some stream-of-consciousness musing, don't mind me, lol) On one hand, commercially-raised meat shouldn't have any parasites, and wild-caught prey probably would. But farmed meat does have a higher chance of campylobacter, e. coli, and salmonella. But those are usually caused by contamination by fecal matter, which cats would be exposed to or even consume when eating whole prey. Then there's the idea that the reason so many people and pets have allergies and auto-immune disorders is because they don't get exposed to enough dirt and bacteria and stuff. So maybe we need that.

I doubt this kind of thing will ever be settled. Bodies are too complicated! Whatever works for your pet.

 

[livelovepurr]

On one hand, commercially-raised meat shouldn't have any parasites, and wild-caught prey probably would. But farmed meat does have a higher chance of campylobacter, e. coli, and salmonella. But those are usually caused by contamination by fecal matter, which cats would be exposed to or even consume when eating whole prey. Then there's the idea that the reason so many people and pets have allergies and auto-immune disorders is because they don't get exposed to enough dirt and bacteria and stuff. So maybe we need that.

I doubt this kind of thing will ever be settled. Bodies are too complicated! Whatever works for your pet.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/e-coli/basics/causes/con-20032105

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/salmonella/basics/causes/con-20029017

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/213720-overview#a4

Those pathogens are not found only in fecal matter.

 

[Anne]

I interviewed several experts for the article, including a microbiologist who specializes in salmonella. It's certainly complicated, @Willowy! Apparently, there are also many strains and not all strains are the same in terms of just how dangerous they are. One thing that I can say based on what he told me, is that salmonella is far less likely to multiply on kibble. It needs a more "juicy" environment (like uncooked meat, for example...) And I'm pretty sure they test post marketing - especially if and when there's an outbreak.

Live prey can cause a salmonella infection as well. There's a specific type of salmonella infection in cats that's called Songbird Fever and it can absolutely kill a cat if left untreated. The cat could have been perfectly healthy before that. Salmonella can be part of a bird's microbiome and using raw chicken makes that risk far higher because we're feeding meat that's been dead for a while, giving the pathogens time to multiply.

The good news is that salmonella won't multiply if you keep the meat refrigerated. You just need to be very sure that it's been refrigerated at all times, between the moment the animal was slaughtered and the time your cat ingests the meat. That's not always the case and we don't really have very good control over the entire chain between the slaughterhouse and the cat's food dish.

So the risk is there and it's definitely far higher with raw meat compared to kibble. I think it's mostly a matter of awareness though. If you and your cat are all young healthy adults, and if you apply all necessary precautions when dealing with raw meat, you should be ok most of the time.

I agree that people should decide for themselves. Get valid substantiated information and then make your choices. 

And wash your hands after handling kibble too - just in case! 

 

 

[IndyJones]

IDK all I know is when I was a kid we would dare each other all the time to eat things like dog biscuits and cat chow and we never got sick from it.

I think the kilns get super hot that cook the kibbles and and bacteria is killed by the heat. The biscuits didn't taste very good but we never got sick from it.

 

[orange&white]

IDK all I know is when I was a kid we would dare each other all the time to eat things like dog biscuits and cat chow and we never got sick from it.

I think the kilns get super hot that cook the kibbles and and bacteria is killed by the heat. The biscuits didn't taste very good but we never got sick from it.

​LOL  My next door neighbor and I used to make...and taste...mud pies out of dirt and water when I was 4-5 years old.  Listeria is very common in soil and water.

 

[lisahe]

 
​LOL  My next door neighbor and I used to make...and taste...mud pies out of dirt and water when I was 4-5 years old.  Listeria is very common in soil and water.

Didn't we all do things like that! Toxoplasmosis is common in soil, too.

 

[sargon]

My cat originally came from the breeder fed raw,so I fed her raw food for a month, while I taught her to eat canned and kibble. I found it stressful and unpleasant, mostly due to concerns over potential pathogens.  I occasionally give my cat cooked ( U-stew ), but you couldn't pay me enough to go back to the bad days of feeding raw.

In humans and cats, dietary information is high on fad and low on fact (they used to have public service ads on tv encouraging children to eat "a hunk of cheese, because it was so healthy, for example.), and i remember when canned cat food was considered feline junk food, and responsible owners only fed kibble.

I feed my cat a bit of wet food, but mostly she eats grain free kibble, because that's what he likes, and, because i honestly believe ti is as good as similar quality canned food.

YMMV

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

 

[maureen brad]

Grain free is a fad? Seriously? You want to feed your cats grain for what reason? By the way hills is the only one saying they are a leader in the pet food industry. The serious illnesses and deaths associated with cat food is not the raw food, it is not home cooked food , it is the kibble. I would not trust the pet food industry as far as I could throw them, they use denatured and rendered meat , corn , soy etc.

Most people who care enough to feed a raw or home cooked diet do a lot of learning before going that route.

I have fed a raw food diet for a number of years, my vet could tell you how healthy my 3 cats are.

 They have good teeth, beautiful healthy coats, energy, they NEVER throw up, they shed less and , bonus, their litter boxes never smell, and they never have diarrhea,. No one says cats must be fed a raw diet, BUT, even vets on animal planet are telling people not to feed cats kibble, cats should have a wet food diet , free of grain.Hills Science diet btw , is garbage

 

[IndyJones]

I really think as some other people have said it depends on what works for you, your wallet, and most importantly your cat.

Some cats do alright on cat chow or barn cat kibbles. When I was growing up we had barn cats on the 44lb bags of barn cat kibbles. Later we switched to cat chow.


Cat chow is fine for people who have barn cats or tight budgets although I don't recommend it.

At the other end we have foods like blue buffalo, accna and Orijin which are considered the best of the best. These foods are rather rich and are pricy but are good quality.

Now for soft foods including commercial raw food.

At one end we have the budget foods like fancy feast, friskies, and generic grocery store brands. These foods are not as bad as cat chow and cats seem to eat them but they do contain questionable ingredients such as mystery meat.

At the other end of the canned food scale we have foods like wuvera, go natural, and holistic select. These foods are again rather rich and pricy and some cats don't seem to care for them. But they are very good quality meats from identifiable sources (pork,venison, quail etc).

Then we have commercial raw food. This is food that is generally good quality overall but again some cats just don't like it. It is also pricy. But often it is single protein which is good for cats who have allergies. Hector was put on Primal Pheasant by our vet (gasp a vet recommending raw?!) Because she had many food allergies we couldn't find anything that she could keep down.

There is really no one size fits all food. It all depends on the individual.

 

[misskirby]

My cat has IBD and all the commercial foods I've tried, including your hills, has made it much worse. Every cat is different and need different diets based on their health. Food allergies are a real thing. People now have the resources to do more research on what exactly their pet may need and I don't understand why you're against people educating themselves on the benefits of raw food. No one is forcing you to give raw food to your cats.

 

[kittens mom]

I really think as some other people have said it depends on what works for you, your wallet, and most importantly your cat.

Some cats do alright on cat chow or barn cat kibbles. When I was growing up we had barn cats on the 44lb bags of barn cat kibbles. Later we switched to cat chow.


Cat chow is fine for people who have barn cats or tight budgets although I don't recommend it.

At the other end we have foods like blue buffalo, accna and Orijin which are considered the best of the best. These foods are rather rich and are pricy but are good quality.

Now for soft foods including commercial raw food.

At one end we have the budget foods like fancy feast, friskies, and generic grocery store brands. These foods are not as bad as cat chow and cats seem to eat them but they do contain questionable ingredients such as mystery meat.

At the other end of the canned food scale we have foods like wuvera, go natural, and holistic select. These foods are again rather rich and pricy and some cats don't seem to care for them. But they are very good quality meats from identifiable sources (pork,venison, quail etc).

Then we have commercial raw food. This is food that is generally good quality overall but again some cats just don't like it. It is also pricy. But often it is single protein which is good for cats who have allergies. Hector was put on Primal Pheasant by our vet (gasp a vet recommending raw?!) Because she had many food allergies we couldn't find anything that she could keep down.

There is really no one size fits all food. It all depends on the individual.

FF has long since passed being budget food. There are several varieties of the pate my cats love , eat the whole can and ask for more. Four cats ( how did that happen) I put out one can at a time. Several throughout the day. My cats (OK Mook) throw up Sheeba. Nutro makes a good pate they eat and it comes in those nifty little half packs.

 

[orange&white]

 
I have fed a raw food diet for a number of years, my vet could tell you how healthy my 3 cats are.

 They have good teeth, beautiful healthy coats, energy, they NEVER throw up, they shed less and , bonus, their litter boxes never smell, and they never have diarrhea,.

We need more pet ambassadors like yours to prove out the health benefits of a balanced raw diet to the veterinary community.  Unfortunately what sticks in the minds of vets are the unhealthy animals who are fed an unbalanced raw diet.  (Of course, they don't associate poor health with diet in commercial-fed kitties, which they should.)

My vet never asks me what I'm feeding because my pets' numbers are always good.  A few years ago I took my dog in for vax boosters.  One of the clinic workers exclaimed, "Wow!  Your Corgi isn't fat!"  lol  I said, "No, he's not."  The employee said, "We have a lot of clients who own Corgis, and they're all fat except for yours."  No one at a vet clinic ever asks why your pet is so robust and healthy.

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

 
We need more pet ambassadors like yours to prove out the health benefits of a balanced raw diet to the veterinary community. 

An, "ambassador," is generally defined as someone who, by dint of diplomacy, acts as a representative or promoter of a specified activity or cause.   I'd hardly say that calling Hill's Science diet, "garbage," is in any way diplomatic, and, in point of fact, such statements as this and the misinformation about Hill's not producing grain-free foods in both dry and canned forms (one click to their website will show this) serve only to cast those who make such statements as being out of touch.

I don't feed Hill's products, so I've no horse in this race, but to impugn the reputation and products of a company which has made such strides in animal nutrition is positively base.  Dr. Mark Morris was the legitimate forerunner in veterinary clinical nutrition, and in concert with his Son, paved the road for modern commercial diets - especially those which are condition-specific, such as food intended for animals with kidney ailments, and those tailored to the age of pets, as regards nutritional needs.  Countless numbers of modern pet owners owe the Morrisses and their research a debt of gratitude, and to refer to this - or to any other commercial pet food as, "garbage," is - in my personal opinion - reprehensible.

.

 

[orange&white]

 
An, "ambassador," is generally defined as someone who, by dint of diplomacy, acts as a representative or promoter of a specified activity or cause.   I'd hardly say that calling Hill's Science diet, "garbage," is in any way diplomatic,

.

  BTW - I was referring to the healthy pets as the ambassadors, not the pet owners.

 

[mizzely]

One thing I will say about fad diets: they have given us a lot more options! I have a cat who can't have grains or chicken due to intolerances and vomiting, and we're still figuring out what else triggers her licking off her fur. If it weren't for fads, it would be a lot harder to find grain free, limited ingredient, novel protein diets. And they are becoming more affordable, which is good for those of us that don't have a ton of money to spend but don't have a choice but to feed "alternative" foods. I don't know what we would do if these fads weren't becoming more popular.

 

[Willowy]

One thing I will say about fad diets: they have given us a lot more options! I have a cat who can't have grains or chicken due to intolerances and vomiting, and we're still figuring out what else triggers her licking off her fur. If it weren't for fads, it would be a lot harder to find grain free, limited ingredient, novel protein diets. And they are becoming more affordable, which is good for those of us that don't have a ton of money to spend but don't have a choice but to feed "alternative" foods. I don't know what we would do if these fads weren't becoming more popular.

Yes! My first dog (1995) had terrible allergies and needed a food without corn, wheat, soy, or potatoes. We had to special-order her food from a dog rescue place a few hours away. Super expensive, super annoying/time-consuming. Now half the pet foods on the shelf fit that description. One of my mom's current dogs has bad allergies and she can just go down to Ace Hardware or Tractor Supply and find plenty of acceptable foods. So I'm also very grateful for all the "fads"; they made it so much easier for owners of pets with allergies.

Hehe, I think it's funny because when we got our first cats in 1989, Hill's was considered the latest fad .

 

[maureen brad]

[quote name="1CatOverTheLine" url="/t/336867/dietary-fads/90#post_4252386"

An, "ambassador," is generally defined as someone who, by dint of diplomacy, acts as a representative or promoter of a specified activity or cause.   I'd hardly say that calling Hill's Science diet, "garbage," is in any way diplomatic, and, in point of fact, such statements as this and the misinformation about Hill's not producing grain-free foods in both dry and canned forms (one click to their website will show this) serve only to cast those who make such statements as being out of touch.

I don't feed Hill's products, so I've no horse in this race, but to impugn the reputation and products of a company which has made such strides in animal nutrition is positively base.  Dr. Mark Morris was the legitimate forerunner in veterinary clinical nutrition, and in concert with his Son, paved the road for modern commercial diets - especially those which are condition-specific, such as food intended for animals with kidney ailments, and those tailored to the age of pets, as regards nutritional needs.  Countless numbers of modern pet owners owe the Morrisses and their research a debt of gratitude, and to refer to this - or to any other commercial pet food as, "garbage," is - in my personal opinion - reprehensible.

.
[/quote]


Take a look at the ingredients listed in a bag of Hills. The first you see is corn...as Lisa Pierson DVM says, why doesn't Hill's show a picture of an ear of corn on the front of the bag? Yes, because we all know corn has no place in a cats diet.I am sorry you feel my stating Hill's is crap is base but, I am by no means alone.
Pathogens do exist in raw foods, they also exist in the plate of sald you order from a restaurant...and the always exist in kibble. Micotoxins etc. kibble doesn't degrade, why is that? In 100 years a bag of kibble will look the same as it does today. You have no idea what temp those bags are stored in at any pet food store.My son used to work in a store here and that warehouse was over 90 in the summer. We would not feed our kids cereal every day.
I have no issue with people and their choices for food, I didn't write this post calling raw or home made diets a fad.
despite the original post feeding a raw or home made diet is not horrifically complicated. Cats require protein and additional nutrients such as Taurine, Vitamin B etc. Find a good recipe , get quality meat, meausre ,mix, freeze. Clean your work space and your hands as you would if you had just made a hamburger patty or meatloaf.